Statement: Kaan+35k engine won't be ready before 2040, by 2040 warfare will look very different.
Argument: Insufficient funding, timeline of US engine programs. Current ongoing wars indicating huge increase in drones
Argument: Insufficient funding, timeline of US engine programs. Current ongoing wars indicating huge increase in drones
Turkic
Member
- Messages
- 23
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Reducing the Time and Cost of Testing Engines | NASA Spinoff
It says 1 billion dollar per engine development and then states the difference between development time periods of commercial and military engines. They stated the difference between commercial and military one when there is. So I will assume no difference in price considering no difference stated.
Published in 2004 so 1 billion dollars then is approximately 1.67 billion dollars today. Let's add some technological advancement gap and make it 2.5 billion. This is also the predicted cost for engine of Tempest. The F135 costed 10 billion but it's not a suitable engine to compare because of vertical take-off stuff. Safran and MTU signed for 3.5 billions for FCAS. So let's say it 3 billions as a average cost. I guess this money is already saved by giving the F-16 modernisation program to TAI, even if it is more than 3 billion.
And it's stated as 10 years to develop a military engine to Nasa. Since they have a lot of know-how and we are rookie, I'll add 5 more years. And let's say real designation process started at 2020 but not in 2017 (when TRMotor established). It still towards us to 2035 not 2040. And you stated "Kaan will not be ready in 10 years even with F110". Kaan likely to be ready with TF-35K around 2035 at latest. And much earlier with F110. According to these data and some guesses of mine.
Yes, I stand by that. Kaan won't be combat ready before 2035. 35k engine combat ready 2035 LATEST is a pipedream. There is a huge difference between Hurjet (Can't beat older T50 sales wise yet) and MMU projects.Reducing the Time and Cost of Testing Engines | NASA Spinoff
spinoff.nasa.gov
It says 1 billion dollar per engine development and then states the difference between development time periods of commercial and military engines. They stated the difference between commercial and military one when there is. So I will assume no difference in price considering no difference stated.
Published in 2004 so 1 billion dollars then is approximately 1.67 billion dollars today. Let's add some technological advancement gap and make it 2.5 billion. This is also the predicted cost for engine of Tempest. The F135 costed 10 billion but it's not a suitable engine to compare because of vertical take-off stuff. Safran and MTU signed for 3.5 billions for FCAS. So let's say it 3 billions as a average cost. I guess this money is already saved by giving the F-16 modernisation program to TAI, even if it is more than 3 billion.
And it's stated as 10 years to develop a military engine to Nasa. Since they have a lot of know-how and we are rookie, I'll add 5 more years. And let's say real designation process started at 2020 but not in 2017 (when TRMotor established). It still towards us to 2035 not 2040. And you stated "Kaan will not be ready in 10 years even with F110". Kaan likely to be ready with TF-35K around 2035 at latest. And much earlier with F110. According to these data and some guesses of mine.
The article doesn't make sense. It costs a lot more than 1billion usd for a 10year military engine program even in 2004. Budget (so far, more to come) for FCAS engine is 3.5b usd. Total program (estimated so far) is 100b+ usd.
Anways, I made my statement and I've been here for 15 years. We'll see in the future.
Turkic
Member
- Messages
- 23
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
First, Hürjet is out of topic. And would you judge a newborn baby because he did less job than a 70 y.o retired lawyer ? No, right ? Because the baby may achieve a lot more than lawyer achieved in decades in just a few years. It was a bad comparison you made, sorry.
I already stated 3.5b for FCAS. Did you even read it ? And I stated a guess about 3b. So what are you mumbling about ?
Irrelevant from topic.
You're not giving any reason for your statements again, bro. You're just stating them.
Yes, we will see. I also made my statement and I support it unless CHP wins a presidency in 2028 or 2033. I look for the time we'll talk about this again.
IC3M@N FX
Committed member
- Messages
- 258
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Just ignore him, he has his opinion now and you can't change it. He is probably of the opinion that only the white European or Anglo-American human race is capable of producing these things.
But he has forgotten that the costs of the engines for development are also a lot of job creation measures and they all want to see money and get paid.
The best example is in Germany, where an airport has been under construction for more than 10 years. The system in Germany works in such a way that the maximum amount of money is siphoned off through delays, certificates, permits, and the subcontractor economy and a high level of bureaucracy. The same game is played in the USA to collect as much tax money as possible. It would certainly be possible with a fraction of the money if the hierarchies were flatter and fewer private companies were involved.
In every Turkish bigger military industrial group or company for example ASELSAN, ROKETSAN & Co, the state is also involved as an co entrepreneur; here we have two prerequisites that do not exist in Europe and USA.
Firstly, the political will to arm and develop at a rapid pace and the control that money is not spent too lavishly. Of course you can never abolish nepotism, but Turkey is developing weapons systems and technology very efficiently and the Europeans/Americans know this and they are trying to stop or slow it down by all means.
But he has forgotten that the costs of the engines for development are also a lot of job creation measures and they all want to see money and get paid.
The best example is in Germany, where an airport has been under construction for more than 10 years. The system in Germany works in such a way that the maximum amount of money is siphoned off through delays, certificates, permits, and the subcontractor economy and a high level of bureaucracy. The same game is played in the USA to collect as much tax money as possible. It would certainly be possible with a fraction of the money if the hierarchies were flatter and fewer private companies were involved.
In every Turkish bigger military industrial group or company for example ASELSAN, ROKETSAN & Co, the state is also involved as an co entrepreneur; here we have two prerequisites that do not exist in Europe and USA.
Firstly, the political will to arm and develop at a rapid pace and the control that money is not spent too lavishly. Of course you can never abolish nepotism, but Turkey is developing weapons systems and technology very efficiently and the Europeans/Americans know this and they are trying to stop or slow it down by all means.
Last edited:
IC3M@N FX
Committed member
- Messages
- 258
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
I will explain again the system of Turkey which is in itself a bit unique and efficient.
@Thank you Chat GPT Paid Version
In Turkey, the Defense Industry Presidency (Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığı, SSB) plays a unique and central role in the development, procurement and production of armaments and weapons. This role includes both the function as a client and partly as a contractor, which can be explained by the special structures and tasks of the SSB:
1. role as client:
Definition of defense requirements: The SSB is the main institution that defines the requirements of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and other security agencies. It collects lists of requirements based on strategic planning and then initiates tenders.
Project management: The SSB initiates and monitors the development and procurement of defense equipment by the private sector, state-owned companies or international partners.
Coordination: It coordinates between the Turkish Armed Forces, security agencies, companies and research institutions to ensure that projects meet requirements.
2. role as a contractor:
Shareholding in companies: The SSB holds shares in several state and private defense companies. Examples include:
ASELSAN: manufacturer of electronics and weapons systems.
ROKETSAN: Producer of missile and ammunition systems.
TUSAŞ/TAI: Manufacturer of aircraft and drones.
Establishment of own companies: The SSB establishes and sometimes operates its own companies or joint ventures to advance strategic industries.
Technology development: It actively invests in research and development to reduce technological dependencies and promote the export of defense equipment.
3 Why is the SSB both a client and an entrepreneur?
Strategic control: The dual role enables the SSB to better manage Turkey's strategic interests and ensure that sensitive technologies are developed in the country.
Promotion of independence: Through direct participation in companies, the SSB can minimize dependencies on foreign suppliers.
Efficiency: This structure enables a close integration of demand, production and innovation, allowing projects to be implemented more quickly.
Financial independence: The SSB has its own budget, which is fed by income from exports and special funds, allowing it to act independently of the state budget.
4. criticism and challenges:
Conflicts of interest: the dual role could lead to conflicts of interest, as the SSB should control prices and quality as a client on the one hand, and benefit from higher profits as an entrepreneur on the other.
Transparency: There is criticism of the lack of transparency in award and development processes.
Market dominance: State participation could restrict competition in the Turkish defense sector.
Conclusion:
The SSB is both client and contractor in order to safeguard Turkey's strategic and technological interests in the defense sector. It does this by exercising direct control over the entire life cycle of defense projects, from the identification of requirements to production and marketing. This structure is unique and reflects Turkey's efforts to strengthen its defense industry and become less dependent on external suppliers.
The defense industry board (SSB) does indeed benefit indirectly from export revenues, and this is usually through dividends or other financing models. This stems from the SSB's involvement in various state-owned or partially privatized defense companies.
Exports and their proceeds:
The SSB is an active shareholder in leading Turkish defense companies such as ASELSAN, ROKETSAN, TUSAŞ/TAI, HAVELSAN and others. These companies generate revenues, especially from defense exports, and pay dividends to their shareholders, including SSB, as profitably operating companies.
2. how export revenues flow into dividends
1. defense exports as a source of income:
Turkish defense companies export their products such as drones (e.g. Bayraktar TB2), missile systems, ammunition and other technologies to international customers.
These export revenues flow into the companies and contribute to their profits.
2. distribution of dividends:
Companies in which the SSB holds an interest distribute a portion of their profits as dividends.
As a shareholder, the SSB receives these dividends directly, thus benefiting from the export proceeds.
3. reinvestment:
Part of the dividends received can be invested directly in new projects, research and development or other strategic initiatives.
3. other sources of income for the SSB
In addition to dividends from export proceeds, the SSB has other financing mechanisms at its disposal:
Dedicated funds: the SSB manages the Defense Industry Fund, which is fed by export proceeds, taxes on certain goods and services and international defense contracts.
Licenses and patents: The SSB promotes and partially owns intellectual property that also generates revenue through licensing to exports.
4. example of concrete export revenues
Turkey has achieved significant success in arms exports in recent years, particularly with the Bayraktar drones and other high-tech systems. Countries such as Qatar, Azerbaijan, Poland and several African states are customers.
These sales boost the turnover of companies such as Baykar, which are often directly or indirectly supported by the SSB.
The increasing success in the export business boosts the companies' profits and thus also the dividends that the SSB receives.
5. purpose of this income
The income in the form of dividends or other distributions enables the SSB to finance its strategic objectives, e.g:
Promotion of new technologies.
Investing in research and development.
Supporting smaller companies in the defense industry.
Expansion of national defense capabilities.
Conclusion:
The SSB benefits from the export revenues of the companies in which it holds a stake in the form of dividends. These revenues flow directly into the strategic development of the Turkish defense industry and contribute to the independence and strengthening of national security interests.
But Ucan Tost thinks he knows better, In every pore or hole whatever no idea of his body, he sees nepotism, money laundering and private enrichment
in turkish military Industries.
If that were the case, we would probably be fighting with stones and sticks by now and our tanks would be donkeys that we ride on.
@Thank you Chat GPT Paid Version
In Turkey, the Defense Industry Presidency (Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığı, SSB) plays a unique and central role in the development, procurement and production of armaments and weapons. This role includes both the function as a client and partly as a contractor, which can be explained by the special structures and tasks of the SSB:
1. role as client:
Definition of defense requirements: The SSB is the main institution that defines the requirements of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and other security agencies. It collects lists of requirements based on strategic planning and then initiates tenders.
Project management: The SSB initiates and monitors the development and procurement of defense equipment by the private sector, state-owned companies or international partners.
Coordination: It coordinates between the Turkish Armed Forces, security agencies, companies and research institutions to ensure that projects meet requirements.
2. role as a contractor:
Shareholding in companies: The SSB holds shares in several state and private defense companies. Examples include:
ASELSAN: manufacturer of electronics and weapons systems.
ROKETSAN: Producer of missile and ammunition systems.
TUSAŞ/TAI: Manufacturer of aircraft and drones.
Establishment of own companies: The SSB establishes and sometimes operates its own companies or joint ventures to advance strategic industries.
Technology development: It actively invests in research and development to reduce technological dependencies and promote the export of defense equipment.
3 Why is the SSB both a client and an entrepreneur?
Strategic control: The dual role enables the SSB to better manage Turkey's strategic interests and ensure that sensitive technologies are developed in the country.
Promotion of independence: Through direct participation in companies, the SSB can minimize dependencies on foreign suppliers.
Efficiency: This structure enables a close integration of demand, production and innovation, allowing projects to be implemented more quickly.
Financial independence: The SSB has its own budget, which is fed by income from exports and special funds, allowing it to act independently of the state budget.
4. criticism and challenges:
Conflicts of interest: the dual role could lead to conflicts of interest, as the SSB should control prices and quality as a client on the one hand, and benefit from higher profits as an entrepreneur on the other.
Transparency: There is criticism of the lack of transparency in award and development processes.
Market dominance: State participation could restrict competition in the Turkish defense sector.
Conclusion:
The SSB is both client and contractor in order to safeguard Turkey's strategic and technological interests in the defense sector. It does this by exercising direct control over the entire life cycle of defense projects, from the identification of requirements to production and marketing. This structure is unique and reflects Turkey's efforts to strengthen its defense industry and become less dependent on external suppliers.
The defense industry board (SSB) does indeed benefit indirectly from export revenues, and this is usually through dividends or other financing models. This stems from the SSB's involvement in various state-owned or partially privatized defense companies.
Exports and their proceeds:
The SSB is an active shareholder in leading Turkish defense companies such as ASELSAN, ROKETSAN, TUSAŞ/TAI, HAVELSAN and others. These companies generate revenues, especially from defense exports, and pay dividends to their shareholders, including SSB, as profitably operating companies.
2. how export revenues flow into dividends
1. defense exports as a source of income:
Turkish defense companies export their products such as drones (e.g. Bayraktar TB2), missile systems, ammunition and other technologies to international customers.
These export revenues flow into the companies and contribute to their profits.
2. distribution of dividends:
Companies in which the SSB holds an interest distribute a portion of their profits as dividends.
As a shareholder, the SSB receives these dividends directly, thus benefiting from the export proceeds.
3. reinvestment:
Part of the dividends received can be invested directly in new projects, research and development or other strategic initiatives.
3. other sources of income for the SSB
In addition to dividends from export proceeds, the SSB has other financing mechanisms at its disposal:
Dedicated funds: the SSB manages the Defense Industry Fund, which is fed by export proceeds, taxes on certain goods and services and international defense contracts.
Licenses and patents: The SSB promotes and partially owns intellectual property that also generates revenue through licensing to exports.
4. example of concrete export revenues
Turkey has achieved significant success in arms exports in recent years, particularly with the Bayraktar drones and other high-tech systems. Countries such as Qatar, Azerbaijan, Poland and several African states are customers.
These sales boost the turnover of companies such as Baykar, which are often directly or indirectly supported by the SSB.
The increasing success in the export business boosts the companies' profits and thus also the dividends that the SSB receives.
5. purpose of this income
The income in the form of dividends or other distributions enables the SSB to finance its strategic objectives, e.g:
Promotion of new technologies.
Investing in research and development.
Supporting smaller companies in the defense industry.
Expansion of national defense capabilities.
Conclusion:
The SSB benefits from the export revenues of the companies in which it holds a stake in the form of dividends. These revenues flow directly into the strategic development of the Turkish defense industry and contribute to the independence and strengthening of national security interests.
But Ucan Tost thinks he knows better, In every pore or hole whatever no idea of his body, he sees nepotism, money laundering and private enrichment
in turkish military Industries.If that were the case, we would probably be fighting with stones and sticks by now and our tanks would be donkeys that we ride on.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Messages
- 3,274
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
This is KAAN TFX thread.
Please stay on topic.
off topic posts moved to
defencehub.live
Please stay on topic.
off topic posts moved to
HÜRJET-Advanced Jet Trainer/ Light attack aircraft
HÜRJET-ADVANCED JET TRAINER AND LIGHT ATTACK AIRCRAFT Advanced Jet Trainer and Light Attack Aircraft HÜRJET is a single engine, tandem-seat with modern avionics and high-performance features, fulfills a critical role in modern pilot training through its superior performance characteristics...
defencehub.live
A few photos from the production of KAAN's second prototype was shared by Haluk Görgün.
"The assembly of more than 2000 domestic and national parts continues at full speed. "
"The assembly of more than 2000 domestic and national parts continues at full speed. "
Turkic
Member
- Messages
- 23
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
A few photos from the production of KAAN's second prototype was shared by Haluk Görgün.
"The assembly of more than 2000 domestic and national parts continues at full speed. "
Then was this photo from the first prototype ? If not, what are those new big blocks for ?
That is definitely the first prototype
IC3M@N FX
Committed member
- Messages
- 258
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Have I misunderstood or will the aircraft not be ready until the end of 2025? And then the maiden flight would take place shortly afterwards.
How do they plan to produce the first series aircraft in 2028/29? 2 years is extremely short, unless they deliver bananaware that only matures with the customer, in this case the Turkish armed forces. Why do they need 8-9 months to build an aircraft?
How do they plan to produce the first series aircraft in 2028/29? 2 years is extremely short, unless they deliver bananaware that only matures with the customer, in this case the Turkish armed forces. Why do they need 8-9 months to build an aircraft?
- Messages
- 4,123
- Solutions
- 1
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Unfortunately, there is a delay of six months. It was announced in the past while Temel Kotil was at the helm.
KAAN
Active member
- Messages
- 34
- Reactions
- Age
- 16
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
The GTU-0 titanium bulkheads were not produced with the giant 5x7m 3D printhead, probably the components in the photos of P1/P2 are making the structural leap forward.A few photos from the production of KAAN's second prototype was shared by Haluk Görgün.
"The assembly of more than 2000 domestic and national parts continues at full speed. "
I remember an interview with a senior project manager in the hangar where he mentioned a 3 ton weight reduction from P1.
I still can't believe we're 3d printing the titanium bulkheads. God knows how long does it take one machine to produce(print) a single bulkhead. It saves weight for sure but how scalable is it and what happens if the US stops supplying parts for them?
- Messages
- 1,020
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Well TAI uses 3D printing just because the US is not selling the press for such titanium bulkheads, To speed up production several printers have to be acquired
BordoEnes
Well-known member
- Messages
- 304
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Are these 3D Printing machines domestic or foreign?
KAAN
Active member
- Messages
- 34
- Reactions
- Age
- 16
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Ordered from US-based Sciaky. The world's largest metal electron beam 3D printer.
www.savunmasanayist.com
Dünyanın En Büyük 3D Yazıcısı TUSAŞ Yolcusu
Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii (TUSAŞ), MMU Projesi için Dünyanın en büyük Metal Elektron Işınlı 3 Boyutlu (3D) Yazıcısı'nı tedarik etti.
www.savunmasanayist.com
BordoEnes
Well-known member
- Messages
- 304
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Ordered from US-based Sciaky. The world's largest metal electron beam 3D printer.
Dünyanın En Büyük 3D Yazıcısı TUSAŞ Yolcusu
Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii (TUSAŞ), MMU Projesi için Dünyanın en büyük Metal Elektron Işınlı 3 Boyutlu (3D) Yazıcısı'nı tedarik etti.
This is side of the defence industry is overlooked quite often imo. I read some reports and articles about how the Russian defence industry for example is entirely based around the import and usage of foreign machines(mainly German and French), since they lost the capabilities and capacity during the fall of the soviet union. Honestly also seems like a very important place to invest into if we want more domestic input. This seems like a massive oversight, especially since all of these can be applied to both civilian and military markets.
If we have $6 billions to spend on a launch site in Somalia, then we should have some money to invest in a 60k tons hydraulic press, as well. We could press bulkheads, landing gears, turbine engine compressors(for TEI) etc. It's a vital necessity for an advance aero-space industry.
