Army The T-629 attack helicopter is an option instead of the T-129 Attack for the Pakistani Army?

[Cabatli_TR]

Pakistan extended the delivery schedule of T-129 Atak, as US didn't respond properly to the export permission of LHTEC engines for Pakistani Atak helicopters. During this period, TUSAŞ kicked off development of a new and more capable 6 ton attack helicopter that will be ITAR free for export markets. This project will pave the way to deliver them to any country that wants to purchase Turkish attack helicopters.

I don't think US will give OK for LHTEC engines for Pakistan so I think Pakistan and Turkey will update the agreement terms (or already updated?) and change the course to the T-629 helicopters. First prototype of this helicopter was produced and It will be ready for maiden flight in following days. Domestic turhoshaft will began the flight trials on the T625 utility helicopters in this year. If the schedule proceeds in this direction, I think Turkey will be ready to deliver first T629 helicopters to Pakistan within 2 years.

 

[Nilgiri]

It will use this engine (x2) I believe?

.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

It will use this engine (x2) I believe?

.

Yes, 629 helicopters will be powered with 2x TEI-TS1400. 629 is the twin brother of 625 Gökbey utility helicopter.

 

[Ghost soldier]

Best solution is a TR upgrade pakistan's flet of AH-1F cobra with umtas cirit aselflir etc as an urgent step until t-629 will be added to PA army aviation

 

[Kaptaan]

PA desperately needs capable, rugged helicopters to provide close air support and air recon in Balochistan and Af-Pak region which is mostly a plateau rather similiar to Anatolian plateau ranging from 3000-5000 feet. With extreme heat in summer and extreme cold in winter. It's a vast, sparsely populated and suffers from Baloch terrorists similiar to the Kurdish terrorists.

Everytime I read a patrol was ambushed I think if they had heli support the outcome would be differant.

 

[Bilal Khan(Quwa)]

If this is the case, then I suspect Pakistan is taking the same approach India did with Dhruv and LCH. Basically, Pakistan would likely acquire both the T629 and the T625 (with the latter for utility, transport, etc). Let's see if it takes this route and, if possible, pursues local manufacturing.

 

[Combat-Master]

Pakistan extended the delivery schedule of T-129 Atak, as US didn't respond properly to the export permission of LHTEC engines for Pakistani Atak helicopters. During this period, TUSAŞ kicked off development of a new and more capable 6 ton attack helicopter that will be ITAR free for export markets. This project will pave the way to deliver them to any country that wants to purchase Turkish attack helicopters.

I don't think US will give OK for LHTEC engines for Pakistan so I think Pakistan and Turkey will update the agreement terms (or already updated?) and change the course to the T-629 helicopters. First prototype of this helicopter was produced and It will be ready for maiden flight in following days. Domestic turhoshaft will began the flight trials on the T625 utility helicopters in this year. If the schedule proceeds in this direction, I think Turkey will be ready to deliver first T629 helicopters to Pakistan within 2 years.

View attachment 14446

I think with a package of technology transfer, to get Pakistan up to step with India (India is way ahead)- it would be wise if Pakistan chose T-629, no one else would offer Pakistan what Turkey is willing and able to do.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

625&629 package will be an ideal solution for Pakistan.

 

[Bilal Khan(Quwa)]

For Pakistan to get the T625, TAI may need to look into increasing the MTOW to around 7 tons. I think it should be doable since Leonardo was able to do it with the AW139. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the military-grade T625 ends up being in the 7-ton range anyways. Otherwise, I think the T625 and T629 would be a good combination for Pakistan, but if they go that route, I hope they invest heavily with local manufacturing (ideally with TAI setting-up shop).


@Cabatli_53 @Combat-Master

 

[Nilgiri]

If this is the case, then I suspect Pakistan is taking the same approach India did with Dhruv and LCH. Basically, Pakistan would likely acquire both the T629 and the T625 (with the latter for utility, transport, etc). Let's see if it takes this route and, if possible, pursues local manufacturing.

Yeah it is advantageous for Pakistan to leverage as much as possible off Turkish MIC.

 

[Bilal Khan(Quwa)]

Yeah it is advantageous for Pakistan to leverage as much as possible off Turkish MIC.

Turkey wants economies-of-scale. It's even willing to part with production workshare (provided its own labor pool upgrades to other projects).

The real bottleneck here isn't Turkey's willingness or Pakistan's intent, but Pakistan's cashflow.

It's one thing if we're talking about a fiscally poor country, fair, but in Pakistan's case we have the added "edge" of being poorly run, entrenched interests, etc. Good case in point: $870-odd million US in 180-odd VT4s from China while HIT's running at 40-50% capacity with al-Khalid. (yaar...CPEC hay na ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ??)

 

[Nilgiri]

Turkey wants economies-of-scale. It's even willing to part with production workshare (provided its own labor pool upgrades to other projects).

Yah makes perfect sense for them.

The real bottleneck here isn't Turkey's willingness or Pakistan's intent, but Pakistan's cashflow.

Indeed.

It's one thing if we're talking about a fiscally poor country, fair, but in Pakistan's case we have the added "edge" of being poorly run, entrenched interests, etc. Good case in point: $870-odd million US in 180-odd VT4s from China while HIT's running at 40-50% capacity with al-Khalid. (yaar...CPEC hay na ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ??)

Aptly put. I would say Pakistan is fiscally poor precisely because of what you mention.

A long topic to cover just by itself, its come up a bunch of times in this forum.

 

[Kaptaan]

Dunno if this is relevant.

Pakistan still interested in T129 acquisition

Pakistan's long-running attempt to acquire Turkish Aerospace T129 attack helicopters may finally be nearing a conclusion. Speaking at Defence IQ's virtual International Military Helicopter 2021 conference on 24 February, an unnamed Pakistani army official said that the Turkish-built type was...

www.flightglobal.com

 

[Turko]

Tolga Özbek says T629 weights 6 tons and T-629 is one ton heavier than T-129.

 

[VCheng]

Yeah it is advantageous for Pakistan to leverage as much as possible off Turkish MIC.

How can Turkey export US engine technology without US approval? Domestic technology is untested at this point of being able to deliver the performance required.

 

[Nilgiri]

How can Turkey export US engine technology without US approval? Domestic technology is untested at this point of being able to deliver the performance required.

It seems this engine is specifically designed to be ITAR-free:

Original Power System TS1400 Turboshaft Engine Developed by TEI’s Seasoned Team of Experts for the T625 Helicopter

As a close follower of development and innovations in the field of aviation engines TUSAS Engine Industries Inc. (TEI) has accomplished important milestones in the initiatives toward developing the indigenous and national TS1400 Turboshaft Engine under the Turboshaft Engine Development Project...

www.defenceturkey.com

On February 7, 2017 TEI was awarded a contract by the SSB under the Turboshaft Engine Development Project to develop Turkey’s first indigenous turboshaft engine to power the T625 GÖKBEY TLUH. Under the eight-year (2 years for the development of the turbojet core + 4.5-years for the prototype manufacture + 1.5 years for certification) schedule TEI is to design, develop, produce and certify two 1,400 shp turboshaft engines (TS1400, ITAR-free) prototypes with a team of 250 engineers. The preliminary prototype of the turbojet core to be used on the TS1400 engine which was successfully tested for the first time on a test bench on 11 June 2018. The test cell, where the TS1400 Core Engine Tests are being conducted, was designed, manufactured and made ready for use with fully domestic achievement in cooperation with the 1st Air Maintenance Factory Directorate and TEI.

 

[VCheng]

It seems this engine is specifically designed to be ITAR-free:

Original Power System TS1400 Turboshaft Engine Developed by TEI’s Seasoned Team of Experts for the T625 Helicopter

As a close follower of development and innovations in the field of aviation engines TUSAS Engine Industries Inc. (TEI) has accomplished important milestones in the initiatives toward developing the indigenous and national TS1400 Turboshaft Engine under the Turboshaft Engine Development Project...

www.defenceturkey.com

On February 7, 2017 TEI was awarded a contract by the SSB under the Turboshaft Engine Development Project to develop Turkey’s first indigenous turboshaft engine to power the T625 GÖKBEY TLUH. Under the eight-year (2 years for the development of the turbojet core + 4.5-years for the prototype manufacture + 1.5 years for certification) schedule TEI is to design, develop, produce and certify two 1,400 shp turboshaft engines (TS1400, ITAR-free) prototypes with a team of 250 engineers. The preliminary prototype of the turbojet core to be used on the TS1400 engine which was successfully tested for the first time on a test bench on 11 June 2018. The test cell, where the TS1400 Core Engine Tests are being conducted, was designed, manufactured and made ready for use with fully domestic achievement in cooperation with the 1st Air Maintenance Factory Directorate and TEI.

Assuming the design goals are met successfully. Aircraft engines are a nontrivial endeavor.

 

[mysndgn]

Unmanned Electric Attack Helicopter T-629

 

[Nilgiri]

Assuming the design goals are met successfully. Aircraft engines are a nontrivial endeavor.

Well they are already testing what they have built so far.

A turboshaft is generally a more forgiving project to start with core-wise (things like centrifugal compressors rather than axial)...and there are generally lot more companies out there willing to sell you IP and work with you on it.

Turkey through TEI also has a large amount of capital machinery in the area already set up (mostly via GE) with engineers and technicians well-versed in them. (Licensed production of GE T700 etc). In many ways their collab reminds me of what India/HAL has with turbomeca/safran for the ardiden/shakti....like India could build a larger derivative if push come to shove too....but there is no need unlike what Turkey sees now.

Somewhere earlier, someone posted single crystal turbine blade production for example.

In the end the human resource has to spend time and effort and funds here, than they would have elsewhere....but they are aided immensely by not having to develop or acquire a whole host of things from scratch.

 

[Bilal Khan(Quwa)]

Well they are already testing what they have built so far.

A turboshaft is generally a more forgiving project to start with core-wise (things like centrifugal compressors rather than axial)...and there are generally lot more companies out there willing to sell you IP and work with you on it.

Turkey through TEI also has a large amount of capital machinery in the area already set up (mostly via GE) with engineers and technicians well-versed in them. (Licensed production of GE T700 etc). In many ways their collab reminds me of what India/HAL has with turbomeca/safran for the ardiden/shakti....like India could build a larger derivative if push come to shove too....but there is no need unlike what Turkey sees now.

Somewhere earlier, someone posted single crystal turbine blade production for example.

In the end the human resource has to spend time and effort and funds here, than they would have elsewhere....but they are aided immensely by not having to develop or acquire a whole host of things from scratch.

We should also acknowledge that the specs on paper don't always translate in real-world testing. This is Turkey's first gen turboshaft engine, but it's going to have to stack up against LHTEC, which leverages the dual expertise of Honeywell and Rolls-Royce.