TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Zafer]

It is a very short sided view to say we don’t need F35.
1. Had it not been for the F35 program, we would not have had the capability and notion to produce TFX. Even then, we had to seek help from Saab first then BAE Systems.
2. The world of fighter plane development doesn’t stop with F35 or TFX. It is an ongoing procedure. We MUST have our foot in this world by being a party to programs like F35.
3. There are many advantages of having these planes and being a partner in it’s production. As well as having access to their technology of initial development, during modernisation processes there would be so much more that we would gain from having them.
4. To say that we wouldn’t be able to bomb Greece is also short sighted and has no concrete basis. It is also not an excuse not to have these planes. Besides, same arguments were made for the F16 planes when we first bought them. Whatever short comings F16 had, be it IFF or local weapons deployment; they were overcome over the course of our learning curve. Same would happen with F35.
In short , F35 is an asset that can’t be overlooked. If we can have 2-3 squadrons; it is a valuable asset to own. Any more would be too extravagant at this stage.

Been there, done that. We have made parts and joined the project and all, and we have gotten past F35.
You don't see what our position is now and still calling my opinion short sighted.
It is all in the past now.

Check out the black colored pentagon in the below spider chart to see where F35 falls among fighters for maneuverability.

note: you don't see it on a phone

 

[Zafer]

I'm still not sure what the use of the S-400 is when it hasn't even been activated.

Is there a war or something, why do you want them to be activated.

 

[AWP]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542223268236738561

the f-16 factory is in the same state he represent , more jobs and votes to him

 

[Yasar_TR]

Been there, done that. We have made parts and joined the project and all, and we have gotten past F35.
You don't see what our position is now and still calling my opinion short sighted.
It is all in the past now.

Check out the black colored pentagon in the below spider chart to see where F35 falls among fighters for maneuverability.

note: you don't see it on a phone

An academician is given a set of figures and he puts down a graph of what some planes can do and which ones are more manoeuvrable on paper.
Nothing is black and white when it comes to jet fighters. With current technology and modern air warfare, manoeuvrability is not the only criteria that makes a plane special. In the graph you have shared I noticed TFX and MIUS as well. We don’t even have these planes flying yet. How can anybody know what they can do? Real life and what is on paper - especially what is permitted to be used by media - are very different.
Just check out the below video of F35. This is a plane that is not supposed to be very manoeuvrable.
If F35 were such a crappy plane why did Israel use all the power it had in US Congress to get Turkey kicked out of the program? And why are they still buying these planes and increasing their original commitment numbers? Why are all those different nations in the West lining up to buy this ”good-for-nothing” plane?
Proof of the pudding is in the eating! This plane is a marvel of fusion of aero engineering and computer science.
Yes we have learned about it and started our own programme. But as the analogy goes ; we were given fish to eat. Not taught how to fish. It will be a long time before we can learn to fish.

There are many US pilot accounts where they incessantly tell you how manoeuvrable the F35 is. But here is a a pilot account from a Norwegian F16 pilot that tells you how much better f35 is as a complete package.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/norwegian-pilot-yes-the-f-35-can-dogfight-2b9c40df79a8

Quote:
“The F-35 provides me as a pilot greater authority to point the nose of the airplane where I desire,” Dolby continued. “The F-35 is capable of significantly higher angle of attack than the F-16. … This improved ability to point at my opponent enables me to deliver weapons earlier than I am used to with the F-16, forces my opponent to react even more defensively and gives me the ability to reduce the airspeed quicker than in the F-16.”

“In the defensive role the same characteristics are valuable,” Dolby explained. “I can whip the airplane around in a reactive maneuver while slowing down. The F-35 can actually slow down quicker than you’d be able to emergency brake your car. This is important because my opponent has to react to me stopping, or risk ending up in a role-reversal where he flies past me.”

In short, the F-35 is an excellent dogfighter, according to the Norwegian pilot. But Dolby stressed in an earlier testimonial that he doesn’t believe an F-35 will actually need to fight at close range, as its stealth, sensors and beyond-visual-range missiles will allow it to destroy its opponents at great distance.
unquote

 

[Zafer]

A academician is given a set of figures and he puts down a graph of what some planes can do and which ones are more manoeuvrable on paper.
Nothing is black and white when it comes to jet fighters. With current technology and modern air warfare, manoeuvrability is not the only criteria that makes a plane special. In the graph you have shared I noticed TFX and MIUS as well. We don’t even have these planes flying yet. How can anybody know what they can do?

The academician calculates a plane's maneuverability from its geometry which is the same calculation for every plane. So given the geometry they can calculate.

Real life and what is on paper - especially what is permitted to be used by media - are very different.
Just check out the below video of F35. This is a plane that is not supposed to be very manoeuvrable.
If F35 were such a crappy plane why did Israel use all the power it had in US Congress to get Turkey kicked out of the program? And why are they still buying these planes and increasing their original commitment numbers? Why are all those different nations in the West lining up to buy this ”good-for-nothing” plane?

That's probably because they can not buy the TFX, or not just yet.
Those countries have an umbilical cord tied to the US and F35 is the only Gen-5 plane available to them.
What works for Israel may not work for anyone else.
F35 can not be used in a war scenario against Israel but in peacetime it could be used for stealth patrolling on Sundays.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating! This plane is a marvel of fusion of aero engineering and computer science.
Yes we have learned about it and started our own programme. But as the analogy goes ; we were given fish to eat. Not taught how to fish. It will be a long time before we can learn to fish.

There are many US pilot accounts where they incessantly tell you how manoeuvrable the F35 is. But here is a a pilot account from a Norwegian F16 pilot that tells you how much better f35 is as a complete package.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/norwegian-pilot-yes-the-f-35-can-dogfight-2b9c40df79a8

Quote:
“The F-35 provides me as a pilot greater authority to point the nose of the airplane where I desire,” Dolby continued. “The F-35 is capable of significantly higher angle of attack than the F-16. … This improved ability to point at my opponent enables me to deliver weapons earlier than I am used to with the F-16, forces my opponent to react even more defensively and gives me the ability to reduce the airspeed quicker than in the F-16.”

“In the defensive role the same characteristics are valuable,” Dolby explained. “I can whip the airplane around in a reactive maneuver while slowing down. The F-35 can actually slow down quicker than you’d be able to emergency brake your car. This is important because my opponent has to react to me stopping, or risk ending up in a role-reversal where he flies past me.”

In short, the F-35 is an excellent dogfighter, according to the Norwegian pilot. But Dolby stressed in an earlier testimonial that he doesn’t believe an F-35 will actually need to fight at close range, as its stealth, sensors and beyond-visual-range missiles will allow it to destroy its opponents at great distance.
unquote

No pilot will say the plane their nation have chosen for them is a bad one.
So it is better than F16, that's a success in that pilot's book.

Lets see how the Korean fighter will fight, and if the US will allow it to compete against the F35 and show what each one is made of. I don't think they will.

Each plane has its advantages but maneuverability is a big one among them.
And coupled with being a plane of no man it can work wonders.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

The F35 is an advanced aircraft that offers tremendous capabilities to its user. As a concept, it has a fat structure built on detecting without being detected. In dogfights, it may even be at a disadvantage against a 4th generation aircraft but if this aircraft has already entered dogfight range, something is wrong with it.

It is a technology designed to ensure that advanced 3rd generation optical system and computers that process the data received from all sensors including radars in a short time, act before the enemy aircrafts and finish the job, so this aircraft is thought to have superior capabilities than all other 4 and 4.5 generation aircraft. The problem is that this aircraft's advanced sensor and software interface is completely under control by its manufacturers. All steps of this aircraft can be followed by manufacturers. A similar situation will occur in a short time not only for F35, but also for new generation electric cars, helicopters and even tanks. With their maintenance frequency, failure histories, instant positions and a fusion structure that is open to interventions, these new generation advanced technologies will be syper advanced computers that are only loyal to their manufacturers.

Therefore, it is unlikely for me that a country that doesnt serve the political will that controls this technology and pursues its own truth can benefit from such a technology at the maximum level like other Western customers.

Except for the interim solution, the only way forward for us will be to bring our own aircraft TFX MMU to life as soon as possible. It doesn't matter much to us who buys what anymore because neither the other NATO countries nor the Gulf dictatorships which melt the people with acid, or the putschist president of Egypt who shot their own people in the streets, sees the hypocritical treatment Turkiye is now witnessing. Therefore, it will be necessary fot West to make sure that the products that will be sold to us will also serve the interests of the West in terms of capability. A Turkish air force with an F35 would continue to have a definite presence in Syria, Iraq, Aegean, Libya, whereever it is neccessary despite the West so what they did was try to maintain their so-called alliance commitment with the likely F16 sale to Turkiye because we still have an important position and power at a level that they cant give up

 

[Yasar_TR]

The academician calculates a plane's maneuverability from its geometry which is the same calculation for every plane. So given the geometry they can calculate.


That's probably because they can not buy the TFX, or not just yet.
Those countries have an umbilical cord tied to the US and F35 is the only Gen-5 plane available to them.
What works for Israel may not work for anyone else.
F35 can not be used in a war scenario against Israel but in peacetime it could be used for stealth patrolling on Sundays.


No pilot will say the plane their nation have chosen for them is a bad one.
So it is better than F16, that's a success in that pilot's book.

Lets see how the Korean fighter will fight, and if the US will allow it to compete against the F35 and show what each one is made of. I don't think they will.

Each plane has its advantages but maneuverability is a big one among them.
And coupled with being a plane of no man it can work wonders.

Yes an academician calculates according to the geometry and figures he has been given. But reality can be different.
As explained above , this is not a plane that is for old school air combat anyway.
Very weak argument about not being able to buy any other planes. Because albeit not stealth there are many 4++ generation planes around for these nations to choose.
TFX won’t be ready as a fullly stealth plane before 2035 for export. First we need a plane that flies. Then we need to overcome our engine problem. Then we need enough quantities to supply our airforce after the plane and engine have passed through integration and acceptance tests.
Yes F35 is the only truly 5th generation plane there is on offer.
F35 may look bulky and yes, not really built for close air combat. But it is no slouch either. It is still being developed. There is a new adaptive cycle engine with 45000lbf thrust being developed for her, which will give more range and power. A totally new GaN based Aesa radar is coming in through the development line. It’s computer system is to be upgraded. As well as all computer functions being renovated through software upgrades, there will be a new ALIS system called ODIN which will address the shortcomings of the previous ALIS.
It is not a perfect plane. But it is the best there is at the moment.
But, It can never replace an indigenously produced TFX. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. I would go for TFX every day. But to be part of the manufacturing team of this flying computer, is worth having to put up with the shortcomings in hand. And is vital for a country like us who doesn’t have the complete infrastructure to develop, produce and upgrade a fighter like TFX yet. (Hopefully after 2030 this last statement will be invalid).

The Air Force is looking into adding a groundbreaking new engine to the F-35

It will be a while before F-35s get adaptive cycle engines, if they do at all, but those engines will likely be a part of future fighter designs.

www.businessinsider.com

The F-35 Is Getting Some Major Computer and Software Upgrades

The Tech Refresh 3 program for the fifth-generation stealth fighter will include an upgrade of the jet's core processor and memory as well as replacement of its Panoramic Cockpit Display. Other "improvements" will include a radar upgrade along with some hardware tweaks to the hardware for the...

nationalinterest.org

 

[Yasar_TR]

The U.S. moves closer to selling F-16s to Turkey. (Published 2022)

A day after Turkey dropped its opposition to Sweden and Finland joining NATO, a Biden administration official said that Washington “supports Turkey’s modernization of its fighter fleet.”

www.nytimes.com

Now this is interesting news!
Apparently Turkey has asked to buy 40 “used but modernised“ F16 planes and 80 modernisation kits from the US.
I guess the price of new F16 jet is prohibitively high for a 4+ generation plane.

quote:
United States removed Turkey from involvement in the newest, most advanced American fighter plane, the F-35, and introduced some sanctions. Since then, Turkey has asked to buy 40 older fighters — the F-16, but modernized — plus modernization kits for another 80 F-16s.

unquote

 

[Khagan1923]

The U.S. moves closer to selling F-16s to Turkey. (Published 2022)

A day after Turkey dropped its opposition to Sweden and Finland joining NATO, a Biden administration official said that Washington “supports Turkey’s modernization of its fighter fleet.”

www.nytimes.com

Now this is interesting news!
Apparently Turkey has asked to buy 40 “used but modernised“ F16 planes and 80 modernisation kits from the US.
I guess the price of new F16 jet is prohibitively high for a 4+ generation plane.

quote:
United States removed Turkey from involvement in the newest, most advanced American fighter plane, the F-35, and introduced some sanctions. Since then, Turkey has asked to buy 40 older fighters — the F-16, but modernized — plus modernization kits for another 80 F-16s.

unquote

If it isn't going to be 40 new built block 70 with CFT then those 40 jets are not needed. They should rather up the number of modernizations kits and add other goodies to the package (Targeting Pods, Data-Link pods, IRST-Pods, AIM-120D) instead of paying billions for 40 used F-16 from the USAF inventory.

What was good about those 40 new built Block 70 was that they come with CFT. Otherwise there is no way to add the CFT to older F-16. This way we would have had over 70 F-16 Block 70 with CFT which gives them more range.

 

[Zafer]

Yes an academician calculates according to the geometry and figures he has been given. But reality can be different.
As explained above , this is not a plane that is for old school air combat anyway.
Very weak argument about not being able to buy any other planes. Because albeit not stealth there are many 4++ generation planes around for these nations to choose.
TFX won’t be ready as a fullly stealth plane before 2035 for export. First we need a plane that flies. Then we need to overcome our engine problem. Then we need enough quantities to supply our airforce after the plane and engine have passed through integration and acceptance tests.
Yes F35 is the only truly 5th generation plane there is on offer.
F35 may look bulky and yes, not really built for close air combat. But it is no slouch either. It is still being developed. There is a new adaptive cycle engine with 45000lbf thrust being developed for her, which will give more range and power. A totally new GaN based Aesa radar is coming in through the development line. It’s computer system is to be upgraded. As well as all computer functions being renovated through software upgrades, there will be a new ALIS system called ODIN which will address the shortcomings of the previous ALIS.
It is not a perfect plane. But it is the best there is at the moment.
But, It can never replace an indigenously produced TFX. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. I would go for TFX every day. But to be part of the manufacturing team of this flying computer, is worth having to put up with the shortcomings in hand. And is vital for a country like us who doesn’t have the complete infrastructure to develop, produce and upgrade a fighter like TFX yet. (Hopefully after 2030 this last statement will be invalid).

The Air Force is looking into adding a groundbreaking new engine to the F-35

It will be a while before F-35s get adaptive cycle engines, if they do at all, but those engines will likely be a part of future fighter designs.

www.businessinsider.com

The F-35 Is Getting Some Major Computer and Software Upgrades

The Tech Refresh 3 program for the fifth-generation stealth fighter will include an upgrade of the jet's core processor and memory as well as replacement of its Panoramic Cockpit Display. Other "improvements" will include a radar upgrade along with some hardware tweaks to the hardware for the...

nationalinterest.org

261 days to

TFX roll out
MIUS flight
Hürjet flight

Moment of truth is fast approaching, once the airframe flies well the rest is easy.

 

[Khagan1923]

The U.S. moves closer to selling F-16s to Turkey. (Published 2022)

A day after Turkey dropped its opposition to Sweden and Finland joining NATO, a Biden administration official said that Washington “supports Turkey’s modernization of its fighter fleet.”

www.nytimes.com

Now this is interesting news!
Apparently Turkey has asked to buy 40 “used but modernised“ F16 planes and 80 modernisation kits from the US.
I guess the price of new F16 jet is prohibitively high for a 4+ generation plane.

quote:
United States removed Turkey from involvement in the newest, most advanced American fighter plane, the F-35, and introduced some sanctions. Since then, Turkey has asked to buy 40 older fighters — the F-16, but modernized — plus modernization kits for another 80 F-16s.

unquote

The Quote doesn't sound to be like we asked for used but modernized but rather speaking about the age of the F-16 (1970s) in comparision to the F-35.

 

[kenny]

The Quote doesn't sound to be like we asked for used but modernized but rather speaking about the age of the F-16 (1970s) in comparision to the F-35.

 

[Khagan1923]

View attachment 45582

The F-16 is an older fighter but modernized (Block 70) while the F-35 is new. They're not talking about F-16 in the USAF inventory. If it was talking about 40 F-16 from US inventory is would say so.

"Turkey has asked to buy 40 used/second-hand F-16s from the inventory of the USAF and have them modernized to the newest standard."

and not

"Turkey has asked to buy 40 older fighter(talking about the model)- the F-16, but modernized-...."

 

[Yasar_TR]

The F-16 is an older fighter but modernized (Block 70) while the F-35 is new. They're not talking about F-16 in the USAF inventory. If it was talking about 40 F-16 from US inventory is would say so.

"Turkey has asked to buy 40 used/second-hand F-16s from the inventory of the USAF and have them modernized to the newest standard."

and not

"Turkey has asked to buy 40 older fighter(talking about the model)- the F-16, but modernized-...."

That is an optimistic view and very valid too. That statement may be construed as what you say. To a person who knows nothing about f16 and f35, that is the way to explain it.
Let us hope you are right.

 

[Cypro]

You guys developing Pars 8x8 for 20 years, Altay for 14 years, Hürkuş 12 years!? still none in service and thinking that TFX and Hurjet will fly and enter into service without problems on time! and Kızılelma will beat Rafales and F35s.. How naive is that. I support F16 purchase 100%, even they should get more modernization kits urgently and some Eurofighters or something else for air superiority. Air force should be prioritized. I hope when RTE loses election or eventually dies, Turkey could get some F35 for TCG Anadolu as well, because it is not about EEZ or YPG etc.. All Problems started, created by EYYYY.. and with kardesim esad.. Syria won't be fucked if those boys in Ankara didn't wanted or dreamed land grab.. hopefully someday a smart and none populist government will takeover and solve all this mess (ofc not that oldies in chp). But now, air force needs toys.

 

[Hasanrize]

You guys developing Pars 8x8 for 20 years, Altay for 14 years, Hürkuş 12 years!? still none in service and thinking that TFX and Hurjet will fly and enter into service without problems on time! and Kızılelma will beat Rafales and F35s.. How naive is that. I support F16 purchase 100%, even they should get more modernization kits urgently and some Eurofighters or something else for air superiority. Air force should be prioritized. I hope when RTE loses election or eventually dies, Turkey could get some F35 for TCG Anadolu as well, because it is not about EEZ or YPG etc.. All Problems started, created by EYYYY.. and with kardesim esad.. Syria won't be fucked if those boys in Ankara didn't wanted or dreamed land grab.. hopefully someday a smart and none populist government will takeover and solve all this mess (ofc not that oldies in chp). But now, air force needs toys.

Pars is in service, also exported.
Hürkuş is kinda in service.
Altay is the most problematic among all Turkish projects, yet naysayers love to point out it all the time. We all know every God damn detail about the engine problems and still people acting like we can't even produce a silly 1500 hp tank transmission system, how can we produce anything. All these projects are run by different industrial players. One should not even compare TUSAŞ and BMC.
Except for some high school drone masturbators, no one says drones will beat Rafale or F-35 (who knows 20 years later).
I too hope RTE loses the election, but at the same time, I also hope the next government won't kill the defense industry projects. Remember, Turkish governments are historically known to destroy the things previous ones started.

 

[Ryder]

Pars is in service, also exported.
Hürkuş is kinda in service.
Altay is the most problematic among all Turkish projects, yet naysayers love to point out it all the time. We all know every God damn detail about the engine problems and still people acting like we can't even produce a silly 1500 hp tank transmission system, how can we produce anything. All these projects are run by different industrial players. One should not even compare TUSAŞ and BMC.
Except for some high school drone masturbators, no one says drones will beat Rafale or F-35 (who knows 20 years later).
I too hope RTE loses the election, but at the same time, I also hope the next government won't kill the defense industry projects. Remember, Turkish governments are historically known to destroy the things previous ones started.

Resson why we cant produce shit because factories got closed or some other bs.

Decades have been lost.

 

[CAN_TR]

You guys developing Pars 8x8 for 20 years, Altay for 14 years, Hürkuş 12 years!? still none in service and thinking that TFX and Hurjet will fly and enter into service without problems on time! and Kızılelma will beat Rafales and F35s.. How naive is that. I support F16 purchase 100%, even they should get more modernization kits urgently and some Eurofighters or something else for air superiority. Air force should be prioritized. I hope when RTE loses election or eventually dies, Turkey could get some F35 for TCG Anadolu as well, because it is not about EEZ or YPG etc.. All Problems started, created by EYYYY.. and with kardesim esad.. Syria won't be fucked if those boys in Ankara didn't wanted or dreamed land grab.. hopefully someday a smart and none populist government will takeover and solve all this mess (ofc not that oldies in chp). But now, air force needs toys.

Pars and Hürkus are already in the inventory, Pars was exported to two countries and Libya and Niger ordered Hürkus.

 

[Cypro]

I mean widely adopted, How many are in service? Just started after 20 years of changes.. and Hürkuş, Was Airforce adopted it widely and I don't know? It still has problems.. that is why they will redesign it and Pars 8x8.. it took 20 years and still no big purchase from Armed Forces, alternatives are being developed and it won't be purchased until engine is nationalized.. Since when western armies are using 8x8s? Export is not same thing I mention, I emphasize readiness for duty in TSK with NATO standards, it takes decades and delays, so Hürjet or TFX won't be fully operational or widely adopted until 2030 or even 2035.. The real problems arise after roll out and during testing. Not logical to wait them to fill the gap soon. More ready to buy fighters are necessary.

 

[Manomed]

How many are in service? Was Airforce adopted it widely and I don't know? It still has problems.. that is why they will redesign it and Pars 8x8.. it took 20 years and still no big purchase from Armed Forces, alternatives are being developed and it won't be purchased until engine is nationalized.. Since when western armies are using 8x8s? Export is not same thing I mention, I emphasize readiness for duty in TSK with NATO standards, it takes decades and delays, so Hürjet or TFX won't be fully operational or widely adopted until 2030 or even 2035.. The real problems arise after roll out and during testing. Not logical to wait them to fill the gap soon. More ready to buy fighters are necessary.

Bro are you handicapped? FNSS is a private company the NEW design they made is for futurue ffs you don't know shit about land vehicles.

Pars 6X6 and 8x8 has been ordered by the army and gendarmerie quantity of 100 more will be ordered in the future they will enter service this year.

You see a new design a go like NOOOOOOOO THEY CAN'T MAKE IT ((( they even exported pars series to Indonesia.

new design is like the boxer APC for their new pars vehicle pars isn't one vehicle Its a family of vehicles STA, Scout.