TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Heartbang]

I mean both were born out of the same program. But France went with Rafales because the French wanted more control and a naval version.

AFAIK Rafale is more of a "jack of all trades" kind of plane due to those requirements. better payload capacity, better low-altitude performance, stuff like that.
But Eurofighter was conceptualized to be a pure dogfighter, to hunt flankers in the Fulda gap during a hypothetical WW3. A2G missions were kinda "tacked on" to EF2k after the Cold War has ended.

Rafale has good EW/sensors, but comparatively shite speed, and radar. EF2K has good radar, goes like hell, but EW kinda sucks. afaik, ofc.

Swiss defence ministry evaluation and assessment from the tender.

Swiss opinion means fuck-all imo. they've not involved in fighting for a loooong while. theyre also surrounded by NATO and EU countries. if the turn comes to them, it means something has gone HORRIBLY wrong.

 

[Ryder]

AFAIK Rafale is more of a "jack of all trades" kind of plane due to those requirements. better payload capacity, better low-altitude performance, stuff like that.
But Eurofighter was conceptualized to be a pure dogfighter, to hunt flankers in the Fulda gap during a hypothetical WW3. A2G missions were kinda "tacked on" to EF2k after the Cold War has ended.

Rafale has good EW/sensors, but comparatively shite speed, and radar. EF2K has good radar, goes like hell, but EW kinda sucks. afaik, ofc.


Swiss opinion means fuck-all imo. they've not involved in fighting for a loooong while. theyre also surrounded by NATO and EU countries. if the turn comes to them, it means something has gone HORRIBLY wrong.

Turkiye's neighbourhood all use different Jets sourced from Russia, EU and the USA.

Chinese Jets have not made any inroads in the region.

A lot of our neighbours lack a lot of holes in their airforces. But Israel is no doubt the top dog. With Greece even if they get the F35 I believe a stop gap solution would plug the hole at least until the native weapons are ready.

I dont see the Russian airforce being a threat at all anymore. Ukraine war has changed a lot.

They are a threat no doubt but not something to worry about. Their equipment is substandard and they lost a lot of pilots.

Russians are barely sending planes.

 

[Heartbang]

Turkiye's neighbourhood all use different Jets sourced from Russia, EU and the USA.

Chinese Jets have not made any inroads in the region.

A lot of our neighbours lack a lot of holes in their airforces. But Israel is no doubt the top dog. With Greece even if they get the F35 I believe a stop gap solution would plug the hole at least until the native weapons are ready.

I dont see the Russian airforce being a threat at all anymore. Ukraine war has changed a lot.

They are a threat no doubt but not something to worry about. Their equipment is substandard and they lost a lot of pilots.

Russians are barely sending planes.

personally i want us to buy j20.
Just to fuck with the US

 

[Afif]

but we reject the scientific system of thought".

are you being philosophical ? what is that suppose to mean with turkish defense industry ? who reject the scientific system of thought and also want technology ?

 

[akunsama]

let go bigger

 

[Baryshx]

are you being philosophical ? what is that suppose to mean with turkish defense industry ? who reject the scientific system of thought and also want technology ?

As we see all over the world, Islamic countries want

If you fill your head with things that break wudu and fasting, there is no time and opportunity for science.

Please, let's read only the Qur'an, not to worry too much about things that are not in the Qur'an. God knows the rest.

Hadith, Kalam, fiqh etc. They're dealing with too much.

 

[Yasar_TR]

What im curious about how the Eurofighter and Rafale stack up against each other.

I mean both were born out of the same program. But France went with Rafales because the French wanted more control and a naval version.

If the TSK did buy the Eurofighter for example.

Could it level the Rafale? Both look similar but really different in their own way.

Rafale is a good twin engined “jack-of-all-trades” type of plane. It’s airframe suits carrier operations when navalised. But the small 838 module GaAs Aesa radar it has is way behind new GaAs/GaN Aesa Hybrid Aesa Radar Eurofighter has. It has twice the effective detection range of Rafale’s radar. Typhoon was built as an air superiority fighter. It is probably the best at that. They both carry meteor a2a missiles. They are both very agile. But Typhhon can go 15000ft higher. It has better supercruise ability. At lower altitudes Rafale may have a slight edge. But Typhoon is better at high altitude.
Rafale’s M-88 turbofans produce around 15000lbf thrust each. Typhoon’s EJ200 has 20000lbf thrust each.
My money is on Typhoon.

 

[Afif]

Rafale is a good twin engined “jack-of-all-trades” type of plane. It’s airframe suits carrier operations when navalised. But the small 838 module GaAs Aesa radar it has is way behind new GaAs/GaN Aesa Hybrid Aesa Radar Eurofighter has. It has twice the effective detection range of Rafale’s radar. Typhoon was built as an air superiority fighter. It is probably the best at that. They both carry meteor a2a missiles. They are both very agile. But Typhhon can go 15000ft higher. It has better supercruise ability. At lower altitudes Rafale may have a slight edge. But Typhoon is better at high altitude.
Rafale’s M-88 turbofans produce around 15000lbf thrust each. Typhoon’s EJ200 has 20000lbf thrust each.
My money is on Typhoon.

my money is on Rafale block 4 with a new gen aesa. and even the current F3R has complete passive engagement capability with the Spectra ew suite.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Stop dreaming guys.
We wont get any new F16's,new kits,EF's or Gripen's.
No matter what THK/TSK wants or needs,we will have to do with what we got until the MMU is ready.
Hürjet can take over some duties,upgrade all the older F16's,use air defence systems,drones,missiles etc.
We need to accept it and move on.

What you say is probably correct. But the reality of a shortage in our fighter plane numbers is there.
Hurjet is a trainer jet. In order to become an efficient light attack craft it needs GEF414 engines, like Korean KAI-FA50 has. Also being devil’s advocate; There is no certainty that US is not going to block the sale of further Hurjet engines when we start turning them in to attack aircrafts.
Our best bet among all these scenarios is for our top brass to go for RR/Kale produced engine for MMU and bring the time line by 12-18months shorter. (Our own engine development can carry on during this time)
Otherwise we must search for at least 40 new air superiority fighters to balance the situation developing in the Aegean, to be available by 2027.

 

[Trakya_forever]

Yep. No F16s, no kits. Its nearly sure. Produce more cruise missiles, more balistic missiles, more hisar-siper etc, more kamikazes, more ucavs. There is no other alternative for short/mid term.

 

[Afif]

What you say is probably correct. But the reality of a shortage in our fighter plane numbers is there.
Hurjet is a trainer jet. In order to become an efficient light attack craft it needs GEF414 engines, like Korean KAI-FA50 has. Also being devil’s advocate; There is no certainty that US is not going to block the sale of further Hurjet engines when we start turning them in to attack aircrafts.
Our best bet among all these scenarios is for our top brass to go for RR/Kale produced engine for MMU and bring the time line by 12-18months shorter. (Our own engine development can carry on during this time)
Otherwise we must search for at least 40 new air superiority fighters to balance the situation developing in the Aegean, to be available by 2027.

I do think that, new 40 f16v request was for replacing the very old f4. which I think it can be done partially by a good number ackinci and mius. Given f4 only used for air to ground mission.

Ultimately if usa don't prrovide the 79 modernization kit, Even Then if turkey can somehow obtain only source codes of these f16 block 50s or at least, get the license to modernize them domestically right now ( May be, if pressed hard enough usa will allow it for shake of the nato ) I think it would be just enough for TUAF until the TFX is ready.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I do think that, new 40 f16v request was for replacing the very old f4. which I think it can be done partially by a good number ackinci and mius. Given f4 only used for air to ground mission.

Ultimately if usa don't prrovide the 79 modernization kit, Even Then if turkey can somehow obtain only source codes of these f16 block 50s or at least, get the license to modernize them domestically right now ( May be, if pressed hard enough usa will allow it for shake of the nato ) I think it would be just enough for TUAF until the TFX is ready.

Please read the previous posts one more time.
No f16 can truly replace the F4-Terminator. These planes’ engines were updated so that the planes could fly at Mach 2.5. F4’s flight ceiling is the highest of any fighter jet thanks to it’s turbojet engines. They still hold the record for it.
F4 were twin engined cumbersome work horses. Their payloads were a bit more than f16s. But F16’s are fast and agile modern fighters. F4’s, although still in service, are in a way, a liability to use because of their age.
There is a definite shortage of numbers in our fleet. 300 jets down to 230 jets. It could get worse as they get older.
You can’t expect a slow propeller driven drone to take on the job of a fighter jet. That is not feasible.
We need those 40 planes to cover ourselves for any eventuality and not to diminish in any way our airforce’s deterrence factor until MMU is ready.
Your second paragraph’s answer lies in previous pages of TFX thread.

 

[TR_123456]

at least 40 new air superiority fighters

So,where do we get them?
EF T1 is not an option,whats left?

 

[Ryder]

Wow the USA want to sell the F16 but it will come with strings attached.

They cant used against Greece and the Pkk/ypg.

They can get those jets and shove it up menendez's ass.

 

[Brokengineer]

During tolga özbek's interview with karakuş,
Karakuş Said if they do not provide us plane, we could increase the number of ground to ground missiles that air superiority of Greeks does not have any meaning. Eventually, they are going to provide those planes. (from 9:00 it begins)

 

[Yasar_TR]

So,where do we get them?
EF T1 is not an option,whats left?

Well, EF T1 can still be an option if UK is prepared to carry out a very substantial modernisation on them. (I seem to remember reading something to this end)
UK, according to their MOD reports have declined to upgrade Tranche1 planes to newer Tranche3 version on the basis of prohibitively high costs involved due to their budgetary restraints.
If we can’t get new ones quickly and the only option is paying more money than expected, then an agreement can be made to facilitate the purchase of these T1 planes with T3 upgrades with a new Aesa radar. Especially if they can include a handful of their T3 planes in to the deal.

 

[TR_123456]

Well, EF T1 can still be an option if UK is prepared to carry out a very substantial modernisation on them. (I seem to remember reading something to this end)
UK, according to their MOD reports have declined to upgrade Tranche1 planes to newer Tranche3 version on the basis of prohibitively high costs involved due to their budgetary restraints.
If we can’t get new ones quickly and the only option is paying more money than expected, then an agreement can be made to facilitate the purchase of these T1 planes with T3 upgrades with a new Aesa radar. Especially if they can include a handful of their T3 planes in to the deal.

And when(timeline) would they(40 EF ''T3'') be ready for use if all went as planned?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Gripen is more difficult option to be bought than f16. Gripen is actually the embodiment of European and US components so handling the permission of one component will not guarantee the other. The best option is still the EF If UK is still in same position about EF's source codes.

The second issue is the sale of the F16. As can be seen, a senator who speaks with bribes every day comes out and comments on the sale of the F16 and proposes new conditions. The guys we are talking about are part of a deep state structure that has changed the name of the PKK which they actually consider a terrorist organisation and introduced it to the world as angels of freedom and now tries to demonize Turkiye over it and issue embargoes based on operations Turkiye carry out against PKK and issue conditions not to use their weapons against PKK. For such structures, every sale is actually a political move.

Therefore, No matter who rules the country, the only way to buy F16s or sonething serious from USA under these conditions will be possible if we take the position of surrender they want. For example, the guarantee of not being a threat to the lands US is trying to divide with PKK in Syria, the approval of Finland and Sweden's membership, act like a docile cat against Greece which they use as a pawn and that we do not defend our legal sea rights against all kinds of unlawfulness and Greek claims. Otherwise, every new day a hired congressman will set new terms and continue to use the F16 as a tool to belittle us.

What we have to do is prove that we don't need them anymore. In the upcoming dates, it must be organize a very spectacular introductory ceremony for Hürjet and TfX in a way that will include all segments of the public and participate in the flight of the KizilElma and/or introduce new twin engine variant prototype with participation of all levels of the public representatives and to put our surprise missile systems on them. In this way, it will be to remind how the pawns they are encouraging against us will remain in a cloud of dust and fire when the time come and to show that F16 can no longer be used as a political trump card against Turkiye. I have no doubt that they would start begging to sell the F16s if one of those programs was in advanced stage in flight trials.

 

[Yasar_TR]

And when(timeline) would they(40 EF ''T3'') be ready for use if all went as planned?

Well, Spanish had started receiving their tranche 1 upgrades at a rate of 1 per month in December 2019. But that was done via Airbus. If we agree with UK, it will be done in UK by BAE Systems. A more intensive work plan can be drawn out. In any case if we act now we have time. They can start delivering brand new planes within 4 years. Upgrades should take a lot less time once the necessary parts production is put in place.

 

[Cenkcnk]

I can't believe we have been discussing this for years. And we are still losing time. If the government had bought anything 5 years ago, now we would have had entire fleets.
We must act now