TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Cabatli_TR]

However, TAI did update their website for Hurjet when they ended up choosing GE F404 instead of Eurojet EJ200. So I thought they would do the same with any change.

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Anyhow, I have figured out the inconsistency in Wing Area between the TAI's official information for Hurjet on their website and on their official broucher. It seems like some dumb employee fails to correctly convert the numbers in the imperial system into the metric system. Wing Area of Hurjet is 270 ft2 and the figure consists with the figure both on the broucher and on the website.

270 ft^2 is about 25 m^2, so the broucher is correct. This mistake is understandable since Turkish engineers who probably learnt from American as they are a user of American fighter jets would probably also use the imperial system for designing aeroplanes.

Now, It doesn't mean Hurjet theoretically won't be able to carry 5000kg of payload since Super Skyhawk which had the same engine and a smaller wing area was able to lift about 4,500 kg of bomb with its 5 hard points. However, I lean more towards the specs stated on the official broucher are again correct, which is 2721kg.

Regarding to the video clip that user @Radonsider linked, I don't understand Turkish, but what I have gathered by using a translator is that Mr Kotil said that the trainer will make you carry 5 (tonnes?). I am pretty sure he didn't specifiy whether if it means MTOW (maximum take-off weight) or payload or even the empty weight of the advanced jet trainer itself. Again, I don't speak Turkish so correct me if Kotil said something like MTOW.

For a reference, Boeing-Saab T-7A which is also a newly developed AJT with the same engine is rumoured to have MTOW of about 5,500 kg as well.

Turks you are quoting here knows how to speak Turkish and can understand very well what person speaking in their own language meant. Therefore, taking the lowest figures published 4-5 years ago and spreading disinformation about Hürjet project based on them, rather than official statements and updated figures, spoils the nature of healty discussion here. Therefore, it would be best to respect what you have been told about project and wait for the result of project instead of taking the old figures that suit your agenda.

 

[Khagan1923]

However, TAI did update their website for Hurjet when they ended up choosing GE F404 instead of Eurojet EJ200. So I thought they would do the same with any change.

View attachment 46098

View attachment 46100

Anyhow, I have figured out the inconsistency in Wing Area between the TAI's official information for Hurjet on their website and on their official broucher. It seems like some dumb employee fails to correctly convert the numbers in the imperial system into the metric system. Wing Area of Hurjet is 270 ft2 and the figure consists with the figure both on the broucher and on the website.

270 ft^2 is about 25 m^2, so the broucher is correct. This mistake is understandable since Turkish engineers who probably learnt from American as they are a user of American fighter jets would probably also use the imperial system for designing aeroplanes.

Now, It doesn't mean Hurjet theoretically won't be able to carry 5000kg of payload since Super Skyhawk which had the same engine and a smaller wing area was able to lift about 4,500 kg of bomb with its 5 hard points. However, I lean more towards the specs stated on the official broucher are again correct, which is 2721kg.

Regarding to the video clip that user @Radonsider linked, I don't understand Turkish, but what I have gathered by using a translator is that Mr Kotil said that the trainer will make you carry 5 (tonnes?). I am pretty sure he didn't specifiy whether if it means MTOW (maximum take-off weight) or payload or even the empty weight of the advanced jet trainer itself. Again, I don't speak Turkish so correct me if Kotil said something like MTOW.

For a reference, Boeing-Saab T-7A which is also a newly developed AJT with the same engine is rumoured to have MTOW of about 5,500 kg as well.

TAI literally didn't update the design of the T-929 after changing engines to ukranian onces for almost two years. They were still giving away models of the old design shown off in 2018 to guests just recently.

Turkish companies other than maybe FNSS and Baykar always lack behind in advertisement and presentation. It is not a priority for them to keep their sites and brochures up to date.


So I would ask you to stop acting high and mighty and questioning more experienced users here. Of course there is also the chance you are here to just troll. Then I would kindly ask you return to your hole.

Other than that no one has to answer your questions here. You are not privileged to those informations and the users answering you are doing so in their free time. No one has to translate articles or videos for you. For you to go around and scream "wrong" is not only disrespectul but an insult. If it was up to me you would be banned already.

 

[TechNamu]

If you re read my post again you will see that I have already told you this. He says: ” Hurjet has over 5tons of bombs on it. We are in the process of making sure it lands and takes off with it from a carrier too”
You are making assumptions without concrete proof in your hand. Everyone here is telling you not to take what it says on the brochures as gospel. But you are not listening.
Hurjet will have 3 different configurations.
Trainer Hurjet
CAS light fighter jet Hurjet
Navalised Hurjet
They all will be quite different from each other. There is no point in building a navalised Hurjet then only use it as a trainer. It wouldn’t be cost effective.
Same goes for the CAS version.
Until we see the first prototype out of the Hangar, all anyone can do a the moment is speculate.

Well, I am citing the figure, 2721 kg (6000 lb) figure, from both TAI's official website and official broucher. Again, I don't understand Turkish, but if that's what Mr Kotil says then it is his words against the company's website & broucher.

 

[Radonsider]

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Well, I am citing the figure, 2721 kg (6000 lb) figure, from both TAI's official website and official broucher. Again, I don't understand Turkish, but if that's what Mr Kotil says then it is his words against the company's website & broucher.

Look, i don't know if you have some problems with understanding.

These sites don't get updated a lot,

And if he says something take his words as the truth, he is the fucking leader of TAI. FFS, I will just call him and tell him the problems with stats on the website, and if he gets annoyed because of this, you better go to hell

 

[TechNamu]

Look, i don't know if you have some problems with understanding.

These sites don't get updated a lot,

And if he says something take his words as the truth, he is the fucking leader of TAI. FFS, I will just call him and tell him the problems with stats on the website, and if he gets annoyed because of this, you better go to hell

I have already proved that TAI's website did update accordingly when they decided on the engine. This is almost the identical specs when they completed the CDR. I think you'd better question his words if that's what he actually meant because once the CDR (Critical Design Review) is finished and the parts go in production, It is difficult to drastically change the specs. It doesn't matter he is the leader of TAI. There is no magic in Aerospace Engineering.

It is weird that you gentlemen show a macroaggression when I am actually doing you guys a favour by objectively questioning the project.

It baffles me that nobody in the forum has managed to point out that 270 ft^2 is 25 m^2, not 35 m^2 when it is just a simple conversion error.

 

[Radonsider]

I have already proved that TAI's website did update accordingly when they decided on the engine. This is almost the identical specs when they completed the CDR. I think you'd better question his words if that's what he actually meant because once the CDR (Critical Design Review) is finished and the parts go in production, It is difficult to drastically change the specs. It doesn't matter he is the leader of TAI. There is no magic in Aerospace Engineering.

It is weird that you gentlemen show a macroaggression when I am actually doing you guys a favour by objectively questioning the project.

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It baffles me that nobody in the forum has managed to point out that 270 ft^2 is 25 m^2, not 35 m^2 when it is just a simple conversion error.

Because we don't care, we know enough that the stats are wrong.



Oh, just tell me the reason why they built a different mockup with different dimensions. Oh, wait the photos we got from the production doesn't hold up with the stats given by FUCKING 2 OF THOSE STAT SHEETS, yet you still question people who gave their years for this industry. Yet you still have the bravery to question Mr.Kotil, the fucking head of the TAI. I mean, it is better for you to question you and yourself.



Also, you think that you disproved us saying that they don't update often, then why does the TF-X website thinks that F-35As will be delivered to TurAF, or the wing area is wrong?


Yeah, just listen to us, we gave our fucking years for this industry, we know lightyear better than you. You, with your lack of understanding, make people angry for a reason

 

[Huelague]

I have already proved that TAI's website did update accordingly when they decided on the engine. This is almost the identical specs. I think you'd better question his words if that's what he actually meant because once the CDR (Critical Design Review) is finished and the parts go in production, It is difficult to drastically change the specs. It doesn't matter he is the leader of TAI. There is no magic in Aerospace Engineering.

It is weird that you gentlemen show a macroaggression when I am actually doing you guys a favour by objectively questioning the project.

View attachment 46104 View attachment 46105

It baffles me that nobody in the forum has managed to point out that 270 ft^2 is 25 m^2, not 35 m^2 when it is just a simple conversion error.

You ask us a question. We answered. You can believe this. Or not.

 

[TechNamu]

Because we don't care, we know enough that the stats are wrong.



Oh, just tell me the reason why they built a different mockup with different dimensions. Oh, wait the photos we got from the production doesn't hold up with the stats given by FUCKING 2 OF THOSE STAT SHEETS, yet you still question people who gave their years for this industry. Yet you still have the bravery to question Mr.Kotil, the fucking head of the TAI. I mean, it is better for you to question you and yourself.



Also, you think that you disproved us saying that they don't update often, then why does the TF-X website thinks that F-35As will be delivered to TurAF, or the wing area is wrong?


Yeah, just listen to us, we gave our fucking years for this industry, we know lightyear better than you. You, with your lack of understanding, make people angry for a reason

Alright, you don't care about the specs on the company's website & broucher. That's fine.

I am not here to pick up a fight.

What you said simply doens't matter when it comes to aerospace engineering. You can build many mock-up as possible, but you can't drastically change the specs once your CDR is done and the parts go into production. Anyone who says that such drastic change is possible without the process should be questioned even if he or she is a chief engineer at Lockheed Martin.

And this is TAI Hurjet, not "other projects" so please stick wih the topic. TAI did update their website of Hurjet so we should accept that as a fact and it is pointless to clutch a strawman with other proejcts.

No, you aren't arguing with "me" you are arguing with TAI's own website and broucher for Hurjet, which reflects the result of the CDR and updates after that.

I think there is no point of aruging for now as you seem to drag this into a mudslinging and I am not interested in that. Good day, gentlemen and ladies.

 

[TechNamu]

You ask us a question. We answered. You can believe this. Or not.

Before I go, I like to than you all forum participants who reponsded & provided a link.

However, I wish that somebody had an answer for Ferry Range & Wing Area. I am kinda found the answer for Wing Area by myself, though. I find it bizzare that nobody has noticed the simple conversion error.

 

[what]

@TechNamu you shared the same screenshots five times, I'm sure you got your point across. No offence.

But as mentioned, the websites can be quite outdated and officials share news more than often on live TV shows on air and in interviews and not necessarily on the website. The defence industry is like football here, lots of movement and things can change fast. It's just the way it is and its not easy to follow for non-Turkish speakers.

My advice is follow this thread and we usually keep it in English and if not mods are usually around the corner.

 

[kenny]

If you don't understand english we can speak korean. I know Korean.

Before I go, I like to than you all forum participants who reponsded & provided a link.

However, I wish that somebody had an answer for Ferry Range & Wing Area. I am kinda found the answer for Wing Area by myself, though. I find it bizzare that nobody has noticed the simple conversion error.

 

[TechNamu]

@TechNamu you shared the same screenshots five times, I'm sure you got your point across. No offence.

But as mentioned, the websites can be quite outdated and officials share news more than often on live TV shows on air and in interviews and not necessarily on the website. The defence industry is like football here, lots of movement and things can change fast. It's just the way it is and its not easy to follow for non-Turkish speakers.

My advice is follow this thread and we usually keep it in English and if not mods are usually around the corner.

The argument that I keep hearing is that the website & (the official broucher) could be outdated, but the undisputable fact is that TAI did update the estimated specs on both website and the broucher since TAI selected GE F404 engine and those figures are almost identical to what TAI advertised when the company alledgedly completed the CDR. Some changes within the acceptable range are possible, but not any drastic change. It is not physically possible. Aerospace Engineering is not football and only ignorant people would believe that.

 

[TechNamu]

What I find interesting that is the video clip that Mr. Kotil alledgedly said that Hurjet will carry 5 tons (5,000kg) of bomb is not even the latest.

Mr Kotil said this on 17 Apr 2021. This is around the time when the CDR of Hurjet was alledgedly completed in 2021 and TAI's website & broucher were updated later accordingly and It simply says that payload capacity is 2721 kg (6000 lbs).

Here is a real kicker.

TUSAŞ Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil’den A Haber’de müjdeli haberler

Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii A. Ş. Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil, A Haber’de Gündem Özel yayınına konuk oldu. Türkiye, havacılık ve uzay alanında neler yapıyor? Temel Kotil, yerli ve milli ürünler üzerinde tek tek anlatı. İlk kez A Haber tarafından görüntülenen TUSAŞ hangarında flaş...

www.ahaber.com.tr

Kotil said in an interview in early 2022 that Hurjet will carry about 1 ton of explosives. Again, I don't speak Turkish so I could be wrong, but I think Google Translate gets it right at least with this sentence.

So we are to believe only Mr. Kotil's latest words, not the information available on both the website & the official broucher, TAI Hurjet is actually designed to carry only about 1,000 kg of weapons, not even 2,721 kg (6000 lbs).

 

[Hasanrize]

What I find interesting that is the video clip that Mr. Kotil alledgedly said that Hurjet will carry 5 tons (5,000kg) of bomb is not even the latest.

View attachment 46224

Mr Kotil said this on 17 Apr 2021. This is around the time when the CDR of Hurjet was alledgedly completed in 2021 and TAI's website & broucher were updated later accordingly and It simply says that payload capacity is 2721 kg (6000 lbs).

Here is a real kicker.

View attachment 46226
View attachment 46225

TUSAŞ Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil’den A Haber’de müjdeli haberler

Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii A. Ş. Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil, A Haber’de Gündem Özel yayınına konuk oldu. Türkiye, havacılık ve uzay alanında neler yapıyor? Temel Kotil, yerli ve milli ürünler üzerinde tek tek anlatı. İlk kez A Haber tarafından görüntülenen TUSAŞ hangarında flaş...

www.ahaber.com.tr

Kotil said in an interview in early 2022 that Hurjet will carry about 1 ton of explosives. Again, I don't speak Turkish so I could be wrong, but I think Google Translate gets it right at least with this sentence.

So we are to believe only Mr. Kotil's latest words, not the information available on both the website & the official broucher, TAI Hurjet is actually designed to carry only about 1,000 kg of weapons, not even 2,721 kg (6000 lbs).

You are right about translations.

First of all, 5 tons of payload look absurd to me. F-16 has a 7100 kg payload capacity with an F-110 engine which is much more powerful than F-404. Sometimes Temel Kotil talks about what they can do, this carrier variant is one of them. People think they can easily turn Hürjet into carrier-capable but when Temel Kotil mentioned it, he meant designing entire aircraft. Also, I don't believe Hürjet will ever be carrier-capable since we don't have a carrier with a catapult, and we won't have it either. And TCG Anadolu cannot be utilized for that. I think we can consider, that he is saying what they are capable and I am hoping they won't try to bite big again like in the Hürkuş project.

I do not understand why they put 1 ton in the second one. Maybe they got lessons from Hürkuş and first made low-performance aircraft for training purposes, or a 1-ton explosive means more than 1 ton since bombs are more than their explosive part (he might be very technical), or it might be some confusion because in that news he was explaining all projects ongoing (it might even be the fault of the author because). From TF-X to Drones. I also found this news from the same time. It says 1 ton explosive and 2721 kg of payload in single news, I think the second one was correct.

 

[Zafer]

I don't believe Hürjet will ever be carrier-capable since we don't have a carrier with a catapult, and we won't have it either. And TCG Anadolu cannot be utilized for that.

No catapult necessary, just add arresting wires.

 

[Hasanrize]

No catapult necessary, just add arresting wires.

Arresting wires are required for landing, not for take-off. It needs an extreme level of thrust-to-weight ratio to take off from a ski jump.

There is another problem with landing. If landing will be done with arresting wires instead of vertical landing there we need an angled deck. Because aircraft might crash into ski jump in case of missing wires.

 

[kenny]

What I find interesting that is the video clip that Mr. Kotil alledgedly said that Hurjet will carry 5 tons (5,000kg) of bomb is not even the latest.

View attachment 46224

Mr Kotil said this on 17 Apr 2021. This is around the time when the CDR of Hurjet was alledgedly completed in 2021 and TAI's website & broucher were updated later accordingly and It simply says that payload capacity is 2721 kg (6000 lbs).

Here is a real kicker.

View attachment 46226
View attachment 46225

TUSAŞ Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil’den A Haber’de müjdeli haberler

Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii A. Ş. Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil, A Haber’de Gündem Özel yayınına konuk oldu. Türkiye, havacılık ve uzay alanında neler yapıyor? Temel Kotil, yerli ve milli ürünler üzerinde tek tek anlatı. İlk kez A Haber tarafından görüntülenen TUSAŞ hangarında flaş...

www.ahaber.com.tr

Kotil said in an interview in early 2022 that Hurjet will carry about 1 ton of explosives. Again, I don't speak Turkish so I could be wrong, but I think Google Translate gets it right at least with this sentence.

So we are to believe only Mr. Kotil's latest words, not the information available on both the website & the official broucher, TAI Hurjet is actually designed to carry only about 1,000 kg of weapons, not even 2,721 kg (6000 lbs).

THIS AIRCRAFT WILL ALSO HAVE 3 DIFFERENT MODELS AND WE ARE SURE THAT THE ATTACK MODEL CAN CARRY AT LEAST 3 TONS OF AMMUNITION. Understand this first.

a more recent video. It is clearly stated here that the aircraft will carry 3 tons of ammunition for now.

 

[Zafer]

Arresting wires are required for landing, not for take-off. It needs an extreme level of thrust-to-weight ratio to take off from a ski jump.

I've never meant that the arresting wires are for take off but thinking again they maybe worked in reverse to accelerate the plane, I don't see why not.

 

[I_Love_F16]

I've never meant that the arresting wires are for take off but thinking again they maybe worked in reverse to accelerate the plane, I don't see why not.

Hurjet will never be able to take off from Anadolu. A proper aircraft carrier with at least catobar, yes. Less than that we can forget about it.

 

[Anmdt]

Hurjet will never be able to take off from Anadolu. A proper aircraft carrier with at least catobar, yes. Less than that we can forget about it.

STOBAR is doable. It requires arrest wires this is for sure. Catapult is necessary if Navy wants certain capabilities on landing-take off intervals.