TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

dBSPL

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We should buy Euro fighters no matter what. Especially if we can get their softwares to install our own missiles.
If we can get block 70s too, it would be great to increase our fleet. Old f-16s can be sold to other countries after we start to induct our MMUs.
Political experiences shows that even if there is an interim solution, the dependence of the air force on a single source presents a very problematic situation. F-16s to be produced at TAI facilities are the most economical and fast-looking solution with the effect of the established infrastructure in the air force. However, there are big differences between the situation on paper and realpolitik. EF seems to be the most secure choice, even if it costs more. Increasing the number of upgrade kits that is covering all B50+ and B40s, and choosing EF for the new purchase will enable the Turkish air forces to overcome this interim period very strongly.
 

Fairon

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I think getting EF 2nd hand from RAF would be okay. I think we talked about it some time ago, and if the specs of T1 are somewhat similar to what is written on wiki we could use them instead of our F-4. Though they’re a bit pricey.

but they would be our first twin engine jet.

Unfortunately T1 Eurofighter doesn't haven any ground attack capability so they can't replace the F4. I wonder if we can convert some of our AA F16 fleets to ground attack role and replace the aircrafts in those fleets with Eurofighter T1. This could help I guess but i am not sure. In any way though T1 Eurofighters without the upgrade won't be a good choice. Even if we intend to buy them, they need to be upgraded. (Better if we can add our weapons)

We should buy Euro fighters no matter what. Especially if we can get their softwares to install our own missiles.
If we can get block 70s too, it would be great to increase our fleet. Old f-16s can be sold to other countries after we start to induct our MMUs.

I don't think we can sell our old F16's. Even Israel blocked by US when they try to sell their F16's.
 

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Eurofighter effect. The US probably took a step to stalling this purchase. If Turkiye is left without an alternative, there will be a change of decision at the last minute, again. The F-35 is a historical lesson for the Turkish state, if the same mistake is repeated only 3-5 years apart, I leave it to your commendation that how can be describe situation.

So instead of working on two alternative plans in parallel, we should combine the two alternative plans into one. Thus, if one of the processes is interrupted, the other part of the plan will be able to meet the urgent need without wasting time. In fact, it is necessary to combine the two alternative plans and keep the third(non-NATO) in parallel.

For example:
  • Start of Block-30s 'expanded' Özgür and Murad modernization program.
  • Start of modernization Block-40s and 50+ to Block-70 Viper level.
  • Grant of T1 EFs for sale in the UK air force, with national A-A weapons and AESA radar requirement, within the framework of a joint modernization plan with the UK.
  • Order of 40 new EF T4s (Instead of the new order F-16 B70s).
So you want 80 modernization kits but don't want new 40 f16v, but instead, 40 new typhoon t4 along with some older t1 with indigenous modernization! Do you realize how much this kind of diversification will cost ? Especially when turkish economy is doing not very well .
 
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dBSPL

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Unfortunately T1 Eurofighter doesn't haven any ground attack capability so they can't replace the F4. I wonder if we can convert some of our AA F16 fleets to ground attack role and replace the aircrafts in those fleets with Eurofighter T1. This could help I guess but i am not sure. In any way though T1 Eurofighters without the upgrade won't be a good choice. Even if we intend to buy them, they need to be upgraded. (Better if we can add our weapons)



I don't think we can sell our old F16's. Even Israel blocked by US when they try to sell their F16's.
T1 really isn't worth investing in. On the other hand, the UK failed to sell these jets. Jets with relatively low flight hours will be out of service. If these aircraft are given as grants, UK companies can continue to make money from these jets, both in terms of modernization and logistics. From our point of view, it can partially meet a need with AESA radar, national mission computer and ammunition such as Gökdoğan Bozdoğan. Or a much more limited number of grants may be considered for OCU purposes. It can be thought of as approximating the unit cost of EF with a possible F-16 B70 cost to us. We only consider the Turkish side of the issue. However, there is also the part that concerns the UK aviation industry and, more importantly, the UK's foreign policy. Buying a jet from a country is not just about buying a jet.

If we manage to get a certain number of T4s, a fleet of T1s in the pack may mean something. Otherwise, I'm sure buying only the T1 is not a possibility that any Turkish aviation enthusiast is interested in.

So you want 80 modernization kits but don't want new 40 f16v, but instead 40 typhoon t4 along with some t1! Do you realize how much this kind of diversification will cost ? Especially when turkish economy doing not very well .
No. I 'want' that all 237 aircraft be subject to the B-70 and Özgür modernization packages and, if political conditions allow, at least 2 squadrons of EF T4s be purchased.

Don't worry about the economy. The defense ministry's budget is still in the 1.6/1.8% band. The reason for this view is that you cannot foresee how far the ministry of defense can expand its facilities if feels an imminent risk on national security. The worst years for the Turkish economy (and the years when we were closest to full scale war) are 93-2002. In these years, there were not only threats of war and a devastating economic crisis one after another, but also the internal political balances were mostly chaotic and and even domestic defense industrial opportunities were mostly limited. Under all these conditions, the state was able to increase the necessary defense expenditures at necessary points. I suggest you do a research on foreign purchases made at that time.

There is no need for large-scale infrastructure investments in EF, Rafale, Gripen etc non-US NATO aircrafts. They will be deployed within the same command and control structure and at the same bases. The logistics line will still be part of NATO and they largely have common standards. Here, the cost factor is the arrangements to be made on the maintenance lines and the introduction of sets related to a new aircraft into the logistics system. The time factor is related to the operational conversion of aircrafts and ground services. At this point, the process can be accelerated with some second hand purchases.

If we talk about non-NATO aircrafts, the cost and time factor may be unmanageable.
 
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Yasar_TR

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Unfortunately T1 Eurofighter doesn't haven any ground attack capability so they can't replace the F4.
UK’s Tranche 1 FGR4 planes have been specially configured for multi purpose Missions. (a2a , air to ground )


1665581153920.jpeg
 

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T1 really isn't worth investing in. On the other hand, the UK failed to sell these jets. Jets with relatively low flight hours will be out of service. If these aircraft are given as grants, UK companies can continue to make money from these jets, both in terms of modernization and logistics. From our point of view, it can partially meet a need with AESA radar, national mission computer and ammunition such as Gökdoğan Bozdoğan. Or a much more limited number of grants may be considered for OCU purposes. It can be thought of as approximating the unit cost of EF with a possible F-16 B70 cost to us. We only consider the Turkish side of the issue. However, there is also the part that concerns the UK aviation industry and, more importantly, the UK's foreign policy. Buying a jet from a country is not just about buying a jet.

If we manage to get a certain number of T4s, a fleet of T1s in the pack may mean something. Otherwise, I'm sure buying only the T1 is not a possibility that any Turkish aviation enthusiast is interested in.


No. I 'want' that all 237 aircraft be subject to the B-70 and Özgür modernization packages and, if political conditions allow, at least 2 squadrons of EF T4s be purchased.

Don't worry about the economy. The defense ministry's budget is still in the 1.6/1.8% band. The reason for this view is that you cannot foresee how far the ministry of defense can expand its facilities if feels an imminent risk on national security. The worst years for the Turkish economy (and the years when we were closest to full scale war) are 93-2002. In these years, there were not only threats of war and a devastating economic crisis one after another, but also the internal political balances were mostly chaotic and and even domestic defense industrial opportunities were mostly limited. Under all these conditions, the state was able to increase the necessary defense expenditures at necessary points. I suggest you do a research on foreign purchases made at that time.

There is no need for large-scale infrastructure investments in EF, Rafale, Gripen etc non-US NATO aircrafts. They will be deployed within the same command and control structure and at the same bases. The logistics line will still be part of NATO and they largely have common standards. Here, the cost factor is the arrangements to be made on the maintenance lines and the introduction of sets related to a new aircraft into the logistics system. The time factor is related to the operational conversion of aircrafts and ground services. At this point, the process can be accelerated with some second hand purchases.

If we talk about non-NATO aircrafts, the cost and time factor may be unmanageable.
Yeah! I have some ideas about the turkish defense ministry's reach.
However, personally, I don't think turkish national security is under imminent threat! For me, from 'realpolitik perspective' it is very illogical and irrational of greece to go to war with turkey in the near future. There is no geopolitical or economic gain from it. And I think, dumb nationalistic rhetoric aside, Greeks are by and large rational actors!

And yes it seems because of the benefits of common nato standard there will no need for large-scale infrastructure investments for typhoon. However, some changes in command and control and tactical doctrine likely to happen. Given, the EF will bring some new capability to TURAF that wasn't present with f716s.

Last but not the least, there is some downside of subjecting all 80 block 50 to b-70 modernization. Because, for the integration of gokdogan, gokhan, akbaba and various som and cakir varrients you will need to give up these weapon's software codes to lockheed martin or you will need to obtain the source codes of the new block 70 mission computer. I dont see neither of them happening in current atmosphere of us-turkey bilateral relationship.

And in case of KGK, HGK, TEBER, aselsan miniature bomb, tubitak kuzgun all of it will need to be recertified on block 70. ( and i am not sure to what extent will usa allow it, even these ones aren't as critical as previous strategic ones ) So, my conclusion is, if turkey ended up buying typhoon they should go for typhoons only. At least, in case of old typhoons the integration of indigenous avionics, sensors and weapon will be lot easier given turkey can obtain source codes from uk.

Note. 'by dumb nationalistic rhetoric aside' i meant, 'apart from the dumb nationalistic rhetoric greeks politicians use for home audience.' please do not misunderstand the sentence.

These are only my personal opinions. Don't take it too seriously.
 
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dBSPL

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dBSPL

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dumb nationalistic rhetoric aside,
I don't know what problem you have with Turkish nationalists, but there are many examples like this in your message history. Yes, you have an opinion about a lot of things, but clearly seems that you dont know much about Turkish recent history and sociology, or about the dynamics of Turkish-Greek tension, Syria-Turkish tension etc. and histroical backround. But you know very well how to try to put all messages into a weird cliché like 'dumb nationalist rhetorics' when there is an opinion that does not support your idea.

When you start talking about Turkiye like an expert, everyone who reads it basically sees how hollow are; but for this reason, insulting your ideas or the world of thought to which you belong would show my stupidity, not yours. So, Stop insulting us by quoting my posts. It is not your first. I'm a very friendly person, but if I get hung up on it, I'll never give up and not stop until get results. I'm kindly reminding.
 
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Turkiye needs powerful 2 engine fighters after f4 are taken out of duty .
new f16 are not to replace f4 but to replace its class , Turkiye buy some 270 f16 but active are only 238 and a big powerful contry like Turkiye cant have airforce of 238 1 engine fighters .
Than Turkish goverment should buy 40 new f16 and 40 Eurofighters.
If US dont sell them then 80 Eurofighters but both of them should enter service before 2026.
If both orders dont go ahead than speed up projects of hurjets , Mmu and kizilelma.
 

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I don't know what problem you have with Turkish nationalists, but there are many examples like this in your message history. Yes, you have an opinion about a lot of things, but clearly seems that you dont know much about Turkish recent history and sociology, or about the dynamics of Turkish-Greek tension, Syria-Turkish tension etc. and histroical backround. But you know very well how to try to put all messages into a weird cliché like 'dumb nationalist rhetorics' when there is an opinion that does not support your idea.

When you start talking about Turkiye like an expert, everyone who reads it basically sees how hollow are; but for this reason, insulting your ideas or the world of thought to which you belong would show my stupidity, not yours. So, Stop insulting us by quoting my posts. It is not your first. I'm a very friendly person, but if I get hung up on it, I'll never give up and not stop until get results. I'm kindly reminding.
I meant, 'dumb greek ntionalistic rhetoric aside that some politicians use for the home audience, they are by and large seems to me rational actors' from realpolitik perspective.
Your understanding of sentence is completely wrong.

And I only said, from realpolitik perspective it seems to me they don't have any political or economic gain from going to war with turkey. That's it.

I never claimed to be an expert on turkish history, sociology and greece turkish foreign policy dynamic! And I literally added a note that, 'it is only my simple personal opinion. So don't take it too seriously' and yet you got so worked up because i simply just expressed my thought.
Unbelievable!
I never insulted you or anybody in any of my previous post. But it seems you wanna feel insulted anyway.
never mind!
stick with 'superiority complex' if it makes you feel good.
 
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dBSPL

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I meant, 'dumb greek ntionalistic rhetoric aside they are by and large seems to me rational actors' from realpolitik perspective.
Your understanding of sentense is completely wrong.
And I only said, from realpolitik prespective it seems to me they don't have any political or economic gain from going to war with turkey. That's it.
I never claimed to be an expert on turkish history, sociology and greece turkish foreign policy dynamic! And I added a note that, 'it is only my simple personal opinion don't take it too seriously' and yet you got so worked up because i simply just expressed my thought. Unbelievable! But never mind! stick with 'superiority complex' if it makes you feel good.
Just another example.

Whenever i hear these kind of declarations ( no matter how soft the language is ) it always gives me chill through the spine. ( Unfortunately, no one actually understand the consequence that such declaration often bring except if your family was once victim of it )

First and before anything else, YOU ARE HUMAN! No one should ever forget that!

Some of the people who thought they were turks first before everything and anything else, started to messure skulls. The extreme racial and ethnic identity always gives birth to toxic ideologies. History is full of such examples.
What gives you goosebumps is the value that made my family this day without being slaughtered or assimilated. We need to discuss with you what Turkish nationalism is and what a sacred treasure it is for us in a related topic. Because there is a serious cultural confusion, even if your intention is not insulting, it sounds extremely orientalist and insulting.

Of course, you state your opinion as like all of us, there is no need to make a note for this, what I want to say is that you have a comfort of thought that will refer to a certain segment or world of thought very irresponsibly.

I would expect a grace that states that you will start to be more restrained about these style instead of making a defense like "This statement does not cover you, I actually insult the Greeks this time". It's not a superiority complex, man, you're not the only non-Turkish member posting on this forum. You also have a dozen other posts where I could have done this before if I had such an approach. My last post is just the state of overflowing patience.
 

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we need to buy EF's in any case. USA prooved that they are not reliable arms seller. So we must diversify our fleet and prepare to leave them.
we should buy airbus MRTT's also.
 

Afif

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According to information received by @TurDef, Regardless of 40 F16V + 79 F16V upgrade kit purchase, Turkiye will purchase Eurofighter jets from UK.
Wow! Can you please give the article link. I couldn't find it in the main page.
 

Cabatli_TR

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Turkiye is planning to create a similar F16/F4 duo fighter/bomber fleet with F16V/Eurofighter and in this way, total dependence on the US source and congress approvals will be avoided and the capabilities of a twin-engine delta wing plane will be utilized.

According to @DefenceTurkey, Turkiye is negotiating and UK is offering 20 Eurofighter Tranche-1 second hand with source codes + 60 Tranche-3/4 brand-new fighters + TEMPEST cooperation. If it happens, an enormous fleet structure will be created until TFX reach full operational capabilities by 2035-2040

images-6.jpeg
 

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According to information received by @TurDef, Regardless of 40 F16V + 79 F16V upgrade kit purchase, Turkiye will purchase Eurofighter jets from UK.

UK has 30 T1 EF that they want to hand over. 20 in use and 10 in storage.

If the rumours are true and they really are offering it with the source code we need to bag those aircrafts.

With the source code in hand we can upgrade them ourselves.

Having 30 EF with Murad and Gökhan would be an force multiplier.
 

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According to information received by @TurDef, Regardless of 40 F16V + 79 F16V upgrade kit purchase, Turkiye will purchase Eurofighter jets from UK.
Great, This should have been the attitude since the beginning. Never be reliant on a single country, Look at Qatar, eagles from US Rafales from France and Eurofighter from UK, so whoever betrays them they have somebody else to rely on. Hell HvKK should maybe consider buying a small number if Chinese jets too, you always need a wildcard under your sleeve. (P.S look at Pakistan too balancing between Russian, Chinese and American military hardware, so whoever decides to embargo the transition to the others supply won't be too costly. Of course Turkiye has a much more significant defense industry so it doesn't need foreign help as much as Pakistan but they should still balance on critical systems that are still not available by the Turkish defence industry.
 

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