TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Blackeyes90]

How do you know that Greece are not capable of joint combat operations like Turkey can conduct? Have not the greece air force trained with Nato, the americans, and the israelis for such a long time? Or are you maybe refering to combat experience?

I dont. But their F16's (except block52) dont have link 16 capabilities. Which seriously hampers their networking abilities. They upgrade f 16 so that they want to gain the ability to share target information within the Fighters.

 

[Baklava Consumer]

What do you mean by "better than BURFIS"? Do you support your claim technically?

I would also appreciate if you summarize how Greece will achieve Air Superiority?

Ok let's give the benefit of the doubt, let's assume BURFIS and the APG-85 are exactly the same.
The question is which aircraft is more stealthier now?

1. RAM paint on F35 will probably be more advanced than the one on TFX.
2. TFX will still use 4th generation engine technology probably until mid 2030s.
3. F-35 will have better frontal and rear radar reduction than TFX (until we get 5th gen engine tech)

Our S400s or TFX wouldn't be able to detect the F-35 first.
This was a stupid gamble. I hope next government sells the S400 to Ukraine, and we invest into SIPER and get the F35.
We didn't even get any technology transfer from Russia for the S-400, it was just another stupid political sabre rattling.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Not to burst your bubble but Greece doesn't have the strategic depth for air dominance. I.E. we'll bomb their runways with cruise and ballistic missiles. They can only succeed with complete western support and at that point it's time for total war anyways. Plus I believe our air defence will be a pretty hard one to crack with just one squadron of F-35s running SEAD. Approach war with a holistic view. We are not hopeless. In fact time is on our side (except aging F-16s).

Even the F-16 thing is not all doom and gloom. UCAVs, long range precision artillery and ballistic/cruise missiles can do the F-16's air-land missions better than F-16! All they'll do will be to counter enemy fighters, but with an entire networked fire support infrastructure behind them (SİPER, HİSAR, BVRAAM loaded Akıncı's etc). When Kızılelma is introduced that will also take weight off the shoulders of these planes.

PYAS, PASIS and PBAS multi-static passive radars, KUDAR and LIDAR circulating microwave photon quantum radars all were developed/being developed to detect stealth targets.

Hava-SOJ, IHA-SOJ, Kara-SOJ(Koral2) equipped with AESA with GaN HEMT transistors which have capability of jamming multiple radar/Rf sources simultaneously. All those are also being developed for bigger threats that will emerge in future.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Ok let's give the benefit of the doubt, let's assume BURFIS and the APG-85 are exactly the same.
The question is which aircraft is more stealthier now?

1. RAM paint on F35 will probably be more advanced than the one on TFX.
2. TFX will still use 4th generation engine technology probably until mid 2030s.
3. F-35 will have better frontal and rear radar reduction than TFX.

Our S400s or TFX wouldn't be able to detect the F-35 first.
This was a stupid gamble. I hope next government sells the S400 to Ukraine, and we invest into SIPER and get the F35.

Bro you are here defence forum and you should learn something ...
Not only radar can detect other aircrafts
IRST aslo can detect aircraft heat and all human made aircrafts spread alot of heat so u are completly very wrong .
Tfx will detect f35 first using its IRST while F35 use other sensors DaS ,Eots i thing its called but no range of detection is given .
If dog fight happen than TFX can eat f35very easy since f35 is multirole bulky aircraft .

 

[YeşilVatan]

PYAS, PASIS and PBAS multi-static passive radars, KUDAR and LIDAR circulating microwave photon quantum radars all were developed/being developed to detect stealth targets.

Hava-SOJ, IHA-SOJ, Kara-SOJ(Koral2) equipped with AESA with GaN HEMT transistors which have capability of jamming multiple radar/Rf sources simultaneously. All those are also being developed for bigger threats that will emerge in future.

Yes! Those too. I didn't think about the sensor side of things but when you think about it they are the most importand along with networking.

Also, Cabatlı senpai noticed me lol. Respect. I've been following defence forums since WAFF days. It was wild!

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Ok let's give the benefit of the doubt, let's assume BURFIS and the APG-85 are exactly the same.
The question is which aircraft is more stealthier now?

1. RAM paint on F35 will probably be more advanced than the one on TFX.
2. TFX will still use 4th generation engine technology probably until mid 2030s.
3. F-35 will have better frontal and rear radar reduction than TFX (until we get 5th gen engine tech)

Our S400s or TFX wouldn't be able to detect the F-35 first.
This was a stupid gamble. I hope next government sells the S400 to Ukraine, and we invest into SIPER and get the F35.
We didn't even get any technology transfer from Russia for the S-400, it was just another stupid political sabre rattling.

Which plane is more stealthier? It's a matter of what you understand by stealth technology and where you put TFX in your mind compared to "superior" F35.

1- It is an information documented in the patent pages that RAM paint that Aselsan has been working on for decades and developed reduces the radar trace up to 25db. Considering the secrecy of this project, it can be considered that the capability is much higher/bigger. Aselsan CEO on the other hand mentions that this paint will be applied to the TFX fuselage up to 3 layers. No one knows the slightest idea about TfX's geometric RCS as well and even if someone knows, giving information about TFX's RCS is a treason as well. In this context, it is not correct to show TFX as inferior to F35 with complete assumptions and lack of technical knowledge.

2- Thanks to the sensor fusions of the 5th generation aircraft and the 3/4th generation thermal optics, the most intense conflict in Air-Air engagements will be at BVR ranges and RCS that the aircraft will display from front will be much more vital than any other aspect. In BVR conflicts, planes mostly do not show their engine nozzles and frontal RCS is the lowest compared to other angels. As a result of latest developments, Stealth/RAM technologies has led to the importance of multi-band infrared sensor and target detection software technologies on aircrafts, together with AESA radars and the presence of supercruise capability become much more vital in terms of concealing the thermal trace rather than stealth of the engine nozzle in air to air engagements. Therefore, the stealth nozzle will not pose as serious problem as mentioned due to the changing nature of air-to-air engagements. EOTS in F35, BEOS(IRST, EOTS) in TfX and Kızılelma along with GaN AESA will search for targets together. The domestic engine is also designed with stealth characteristics and to be introduced umtil 2030.

3- As I said, comments about TfX's frontal RCS are purely personal assumptions and lack of technical knowledge. It is not possible to reach the right conclusion with these assumptions.

 

[Ravenman]

Just when Biden wanted to sell F16's to Turkey, they found classified files in his house.

 

[Heartbang]

TFX will still use 4th generation engine technology probably until mid 2030s.

4th gen engines do not automatically downgrade a plane from 5th gen. F-35 uses its fuel to cool down some of its components. This ram air intake right here is used to cool down the fuel.

In theory you could use something similar to mask the engine heat signature. It would do adequately until our own engine is ready.

Based on reports written on joint military drills done with India, Western intelligence data suggests export variant S400 systems can detect and track F-35's from 35 km inwards. That's better than nothing. You could cover 80 out of 81 provinces with that kind of coverage.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

MMU S-Duct structure showing how RCS from the front is kept to minimum and Rf waves entering the air blush are first absorbed by RAM coating applied to the interior and how remaining waves are not reflected back To the emitter source

 

[Fuzuli NL]

This whipped piece of human excrement has voiced his rejection to the F-16 deal without delay.

 

[Trakya_forever]

I want to ask again. Do you really believe that do US F35s and others have the same capabilities?

 

[Afif]

I want to ask again. Do you really believe that do US F35s and others have the same capabilities?

When it comes to hardware, yes.
When it comes to software, no.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Ok let's give the benefit of the doubt, let's assume BURFIS and the APG-85 are exactly the same.
The question is which aircraft is more stealthier now?

1. RAM paint on F35 will probably be more advanced than the one on TFX.
2. TFX will still use 4th generation engine technology probably until mid 2030s.
3. F-35 will have better frontal and rear radar reduction than TFX (until we get 5th gen engine tech)

Our S400s or TFX wouldn't be able to detect the F-35 first.
This was a stupid gamble. I hope next government sells the S400 to Ukraine, and we invest into SIPER and get the F35.
We didn't even get any technology transfer from Russia for the S-400, it was just another stupid political sabre rattling.

S400 was an dopey move that cost us big time and will continue to cost us. I am also of the opinion that the americans are always looking for ways to screw us, but that doesn't mean we make it easy for them as in the case of the s400 purchase.

However, we cannot be a belly dancing nation because that will invite more trouble. We brought the s400, under no circumstances do we give it away to satisfy America. You do that and guess what, the next time you make an independent move they are going to apply even more pressure onto you and you will never ever feel comfortable in any decisions you make. We have to be a nation that does what she says and isn't deterred from doing what she sees in her interests.

The truth is this, we need to be moving away completely from American hardware. In an ideal world we never buy another fighter jet from them ever again.

 

[Pilatino]

When it comes to hardware, yes.
When it comes to software, no.

Without software they can even downgrade the performance up to % they can even stop it in the air.

 

[Baryshx]

This guy wrote something like this, I don't know how realistic it is.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1612411332262875137

 

[Brokengineer]

What s400 purchase proved that we can never rely on US and the West to provide TR Army's needs.
We are on our own. We have to develop and sale our military technology to the partners to cover research and development costs. We should develop an engine for a fighter jet, Electronics and software for any military device, even a nuclear warhead for an lrbm to make them seriously think before attack.

 

[GoatsMilk]

This guy wrote something like this, I don't know how realistic it is.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1612411332262875137

I think its the other way around, in the sense that being kicked out of the F35, various military embargoes on all sorts of things as well as their support for the PKK terrorists, its basically put more impetus into needing our own plane. Expect all serious projects to be sped up as a result.

 

[Anastasius]

Just when Biden wanted to sell F16's to Turkey, they found classified files in his house.

They've been finding them for a while, it's more to do with his handlers wanting to replace the old man with a new puppet.

 

[Anastasius]

This guy wrote something like this, I don't know how realistic it is.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1612411332262875137

You want to exit the F-35 program. Do you:

1) Inform the US that you no longer wish to participate in F-35 development and go through proper paperwork to amicably quit.

2) Pull off some convoluted 5D-chess scheme that may or not may not work in order to cast aspersions on your international reputation and get kicked out of the F-35 project instead?

Some people just have too much time and overactive imaginations.

 

[blackjack]

Buying S400 was a dumb idea:

1. We lost access to $15 billion of business from parts sales
2. We lost access to 100+ F-35A and 18 F-35B
3. No Tech transfer from S400
4. We've already developed SIPER
5. Greece will now have air superiority

Greece will most likely upgrade the F-35 to Block 4 configuration with the new APG-85 radar that is better than BURFIS on MMU.

Good luck using crappy Russian tech from the 1990s against a block 4 F35.

Even if we pretend the F-35 is magically invisible to the S-400 and people that market shit do not lie at all (I am willing to bet that in our lifetime we will not see F-35s used in any major conflict around the globe despite over 1000 produced) 1000s upon 1000s of sorties were flown in Serbia during the Kosovo war. I think Turkey is not like Serbia and that they have long range missiles that can target F-35s the moment they land refuel and restock on ammunitions in their runways which the Serbs did not have the luxury of using and only had 1960s short range air defenses. Turkey besides the S-400 needs something pantsir or tor related as in short range defense missiles to deal and intercept F-35 SEAD weapons (my knowledge is lacking in this, are they developing short range SAMs?).

SIPER last time I checked. https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/08/turkiye-test-fires-siper-area-air-defence-missile/#:~:text=In the last test firing,at 100 km of range.” references ranges from 100km to 150km while the S-400 already has SAMs that have ranges of 250km-400kms while the S-500 is evolved for longer ranges. So, I am assuming that the S-400 was needed because it will take a while to get SIPER to hit targets 250-400kms away. But I can see why Turkey views air defenses over air force as a priority. Turkey wanted at least a capability to intercept nuclear BMs heading to their country, or thwart off an air force which can always be targeted later on runways via satellite or OTH radars monitoring when they land. I mean with F-35s you can deter an air force, but I have yet to hear about them intercepting BMs with air-to-air missiles (even though articles claim this with no proof) like some ships do out at sea.

Also, I heard Turkish and US relations were shit before the S-400 deal while the S-400 was rather an excuse, and that Israel lobbied the U.S. from Turkey acquiring 100 F-35s which would make sense since not everyone in the middle east shares similar interests. Turkey wanted 12 more MRLS from U.S. but the U.S. said no, so I am sure there were more military deals where they don't want Turkey to become too big. I don't know if the Russians would be dickheads as well because I am still unsure if both are still friends or not based on many mixed reports i have received.

Out of curiosity let's say the S-400 deal never took place and the F-35 order still went through. How long would turkey acquire all those F-35s to be in their air force? Could they have done this 1st and then purchase the S-400 if they wanted to?