TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Yasar_TR]

It would cost less than a upgrade to restart production in the UK's production line @Yasar_TR abi mentioned. We would get first Typhoons by 2026 and deliveries of first 20 of T4 Typhoons would end by 2027-2028 by a production rate of 1 per month. Deliveries of the second batch 20 Typhoons would take until 2030.

Actually the paragraph above is a question itself because idk much about Typhoon's production. I hope if someone could tell me it's possibility.

I have another question;
I saw a newspaper saying T5 deliveries to Luftwaffe will start by this year. Is it true ? Is it possible for us to get T5's with Captor Mk2 by 2026 if production line in the UK produces for us ?

Tranche numbers are bit of a snake oil story in the end. There are many tranche numbers flying up in the air. According to the UK , T4 with ECRS-MK2 is T4+ Standard.
After T3 all additions are small increments of improvements.
T4 has ECRS-MK1 (Hensoldt manufactured Aesa radar) which is a significant improvement over the ECRS-MK0 (Qatari T3 Typhoons’ Aesa radar) and is the version Germany is having in their first 38 unit order. Now they have placed a further 20 piece order for T5 Standard.
MK2 is the top of the range Aesa radar at the moment. Hence T4+ standard.

The Tranche 5 model, according to Airbus and Germany, boasts enhanced avionics, improved survivability, expanded multi-rolecapabilities, and increased compatibility with advanced weapon systems. It is being offered to India as a multi role fighter. T5 is supposed to contain distinct improvements over Rafale‘s latest model with apparent price advantages.

UK monitoring demand for new Typhoon fighter jets

The Ministry of Defence is evaluating the future demand for the Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 4+ variant, both domestically and internationally.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Airbus and Germany Team Up to Offer Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 5 for India’s MRFA Tender – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Saithan]

Tranche numbers are bit of a snake oil story in the end. There are many tranche numbers flying up in the air. According to the UK , T4 with ECRS-MK2 is T4+ Standard.
After T3 all additions are small increments of improvements.
T4 has ECRS-MK1 (Hensoldt manufactured Aesa radar) which is a significant improvement over the ECRS-MK0 (Qatari T3 Typhoons’ Aesa radar) and is the version Germany is having in their first 38 unit order. Now they have placed a further 20 piece order for T5 Standard.
MK2 is the top of the range Aesa radar at the moment. Hence T4+ standard.

The Tranche 5 model, according to Airbus and Germany, boasts enhanced avionics, improved survivability, expanded multi-rolecapabilities, and increased compatibility with advanced weapon systems. It is being offered to India as a multi role fighter. T5 is supposed to contain distinct improvements over Rafale‘s latest model with apparent price advantages.

UK monitoring demand for new Typhoon fighter jets

The Ministry of Defence is evaluating the future demand for the Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 4+ variant, both domestically and internationally.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Airbus and Germany Team Up to Offer Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 5 for India’s MRFA Tender – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Yes, hence I believe that T2-T3 must be the "factory" standard that everyone has as baseline. I also recall reading that EF was built that way to easier be adjusted to different needs of the consortium members.

Which isn't a bad idea considering flexibility is needed in order to reach more markets. However back when Denmark was looking at EF and F35 the price difference wasn't so big, and that is why I was thinking F35 would be a better pick for Denmark.

But considering the AI and cyber warfare I am not sure that F35 is a jet I'd pick as the sole airforce jet. Having autonomous control over the jet and IFF is very important and I don't think any country with their sanity in place would want to be that much dependant on F35.

What I'm saying is that in hindsight EF T4 /F16 B50/70 should be prefered as a baseline bare minimum because of familarity and autonomy.

 

[Strong AI]

I am still hopeing that once we get the approval for the EFs, we will cancel the Viper purchase and order more EFs.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I am still hopeing that once we get the approval for the EFs, we will cancel the Viper purchase and order more EFs.

We have to somewhat pay for the 79 upgrades work to be implemented to our F16s. We need Lockheed Martin approval to alter and replace parts on those planes. We need LM’s help too to make a smooth transition of the upgrading work. In a way, buying the 40 new F16V70 planes is the payment that will cover that. We have already made the initial payment for the 40 planes to start the production ball rolling. Are we going to forego that money?

Are we to ignore our Airforce and defence ministry’s claims that we do need to purchase both EF2000 planes and the F16s?

 

[uçuyorum]

We have to somewhat pay for the 79 upgrades work to be implemented to our F16s. We need Lockheed Martin approval to alter and replace parts on those planes. We need LM’s help too to make a smooth transition of the upgrading work. In a way, buying the 40 new F16V70 planes is the payment that will cover that. We have already made the initial payment for the 40 planes to start the production ball rolling. Are we going to forego that money?

Are we to ignore our Airforce and defence ministry’s claims that we do need to purchase both EF2000 planes and the F16s?

We still haven't signed the F16 deal which is weird honestly. But yeah we do need both, we have the lowest number of inventory in decades

 

[Strong AI]

We have to somewhat pay for the 79 upgrades work to be implemented to our F16s.

We have abandoned those kits and the production of "our" Vipers surely has not started yet, so we should be able to get most of the payment back. This is not the same case compared to the F-35 issue.

Minister Güler said, "An initial payment of 1.4 billion dollars has been made for the F-16s. 40 F-16s will be purchased. We have abandoned the 79 modernization kits. The Americans stated that they could provide the F-35."

Bakan Güler'den teğmen açıklaması: Kasıtlı organize disiplinsizlik! F-35 ve F-16 sürprizi

Haber 7 - Milli Savunma Bakanı Yaşar Güler, teğmenlerin kılıçlı korsan yeminine ilişkin "Suç kılıç çatmak değil, kasıtlı organize disiplinsizliktir." dedi. ABD'den

www.haber7.com

 

[Yasar_TR]

We have abandoned those kits and the production of "our" Vipers surely has not started yet, so we should be able to get most of the payment back. This is not the same case compared to the F-35 issue.

I like your optimism. A down payment is made to show you are serious about the purchase. Seller has every right to hold on to that money in case of cancellation of the order.

We abandoned the purchase of 79 kits in place of upgrading our F16s with our own Ozgur 2 programme in house. We need that upgrade programme.

Quote
Turkey will drop the plan to purchase 79 modernization kits for its F-16s and pursue a national upgrade program with Turkish Aerospace Industries. This would be done under the ambitious Özgür Project, which Turkey announced in early 2023.

Unquote

Turkey Drops Imported Modernization Kits for F-16s Over ‘Cheaper’ Domestic Program

Turkey will drop the plan to purchase 79 modernization kits for its F-16s and pursue a national upgrade program with Turkish Aerospace Industries. This

theaviationist.com

Türkiye 40 adet F-16V sipariş etti ancak F-16 C/D'lerini kendisi yükseltecek

Sadece bir yıl önce Ankara, kendi F-40 C/D bloğu 16'yi modernize etmek için Washington'dan 79 F-16V ve 50 kit satın alma yetkisini aldı.

meta-defense.fr

 

[Strong AI]

We need that upgrade programme.

The serial production of most of the parts needed for Özgür-2 started already.
Do we really need permission from the USA?

Contracts Inked for F-16 Block-30 ÖZGÜR-II & F-16 Block-40/50 ÖZGÜR-II Projects

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Sanchez]

Do we really need permission from the USA?

Possibly, yes. These are all FMS aircraft. 30 or so non CCIP aircraft we bought the source codes to are different, but the Özgür-II package for the CCIP planes are problematic. We need American coordination and okay there.

 

[Yasar_TR]

The serial production of most of the parts needed for Özgür-2 started already.
Do we really need permission from the USA?

Contracts Inked for F-16 Block-30 ÖZGÜR-II & F-16 Block-40/50 ÖZGÜR-II Projects

www.defenceturkey.com

That is a vague area. Yes and no!
On paper, probably yes. If you remember in one of Mahmut Aksit’s speeches; he was clearly saying about F110 engines being the property of GE.
So under FMS we buy them and use them. Not really owning them outright.
But we can’t tamper with them.
Yet there is an understanding between the two allies whereby they have given us certain codes to integrate our weapons to the planes. Also they have not made an issue of us upgrading our planes with Ozgur.
We have also been able to introduce our own weapons as US weapons and use them without any problem (eg HGK as JDAM; Gokdogan as AMRAAM ) .
There is a notion that a 25 or 30 year time limit on the FMS sales which can allow us to tamper with the planes. But that is an unfounded and unproven notion.

 

[Merzifonlu]

USA is not allies anyone and anymore now, except may be Israel.

 

[Yasar_TR]

MSB'den İkinci el Eurofighter Typhoon tedariki iddiasına yanıt

Türkiye'nin ikinci el Eurofighter Typhoon savaş uçağı tedarik edeceği iddiaları, Milli Savunma Bakanlığı kaynakları tarafından yanıtlandı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Here is the news from the source.

We had announced that the Requirement Definition Document prepared as a result of the meetings was sent to the UK Ministry of Defense and the relevant company. We are waiting for a price offer from them. Our request is that the first aircraft to be purchased are new production. But how this will happen will be determined by the offer that will come to us.”

So we have asked for new planes. Not used.

 

[Oublious]

MoD gives answer to the second hand EF news. Only new fighters

 

[Oublious]

News about F35, after all the problems should we go back is the question what needs to be asnwered..

page 37/

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R48304

Congress may consider revisiting the sale of F-35s to Turkey and the United Arab Emirates. Turkey was one of the eight original F-35 international partners on the F-35 program and is a member of NATO. The United States removed Turkey from the F-35 program in July 2019 for its purchase of the S-400 surface to air missile system—an acquisition which caused concern that Russia could obtain information concerning the F-35’s stealth capabilities. The U.S. imposed sanctions on Turkey using the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (P.L. 115-44).205 In January 2024, the U.S. resumed sales of F-16s to Turkey, which has renewed the discussion of whether Turkey could purchase F-35s. Congress could reconsider Turkey’s participation in the program. The United Arab Emirates reportedly withdrew its bid to buy F-35s after the Biden Administration delayed the deal over concerns about a UAE contract with the China-based 5G technology company Huawei.206 Congress could consider whether or not to support a sale of F35s to the UAE in the future

 

[Strong AI]

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R48304

Wait, Türkiye was meant to build the whole engine, not only some parts?

Before losing its partner status, Turkey was to build F135 engines and conduct engine maintenance and overhaul.

 

[guest12]

Wait, Türkiye was meant to build the whole engine, not only some parts?

No only some parts and more importantly engine in question was F-136 .A candidate engine delveoped by GE for F-35 later but in the end F-135 engine won the selection.

 

[Strong AI]

No only some parts and more importantly engine in question was F-136 .A candidate engine delveoped by GE for F-35 later but in the end F-135 engine won the selection.

But that report says otherwise.

 

[Sanchez]

But that report says otherwise.

Report can hardly be considered a report, it's too short, lacks details and nuance. Our workshare on F-35's airframe was much larger (which was later shared by the Germans and the Dutch) than our workshare on the F135, which the report doesn't even mention. It's true however that Turkey was to be the main regional MRO facility for F135 engines.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Wait, Türkiye was meant to build the whole engine, not only some parts?

Türkiye was chosen as the centre for local regional area for the F35 operators as the engine overhaul and maintenance centre. That would have meant to dismantle the engine and rebuilding it.
Kale with Pratt & Whitney had formed a partnership and was building a good number of parts for the F135.
That was the scale of our involvement in the F135 engine.

 

[Hannibal]

News about F35, after all the problems should we go back is the question what needs to be asnwered..

page 37/

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R48304

Congress may consider revisiting the sale of F-35s to Turkey and the United Arab Emirates. Turkey was one of the eight original F-35 international partners on the F-35 program and is a member of NATO. The United States removed Turkey from the F-35 program in July 2019 for its purchase of the S-400 surface to air missile system—an acquisition which caused concern that Russia could obtain information concerning the F-35’s stealth capabilities. The U.S. imposed sanctions on Turkey using the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (P.L. 115-44).205 In January 2024, the U.S. resumed sales of F-16s to Turkey, which has renewed the discussion of whether Turkey could purchase F-35s. Congress could reconsider Turkey’s participation in the program. The United Arab Emirates reportedly withdrew its bid to buy F-35s after the Biden Administration delayed the deal over concerns about a UAE contract with the China-based 5G technology company Huawei.206 Congress could consider whether or not to support a sale of F35s to the UAE in the future

If you really think Israel will allow the sale and lose its qualitative edge, I have a bridge to sell to you.