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Anmdt

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Maybe replacing some Gabya or as interim solution since Barbaros-class gets it's MLU?
Even if TN gets these we are looking at 4-5 years of modernization and life extension program with Turkish sensors and weapons, as best of worst case scenario.

Unless US is planning to employ a broad embargo similar to Iran - N.Korea then lesslikely.

Navy could even let go of MEKO but not the Gabyas.
 

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They should uprade the rest of the Meko class wasting money on this thing.
 

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Even if TN gets these we are looking at 4-5 years of modernization and life extension program with Turkish sensors and weapons, as best of worst case scenario.

Unless US is planning to employ a broad embargo similar to Iran - N.Korea then lesslikely.

Navy could even let go of MEKO but not the Gabyas.
UK offered HMS Monmouth (already decommissioned) and HMS Montrose (Still active) to the Greeks as a gift if they bought 4 Type31 frigates . But they opted for the French ships.
So in reality the British have given up on these ships. They are being used as sweeteners to entice customers to buy more lucrative equipment ; Typhoons? RR engines?

 
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uçuyorum

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I was baffled at first, but this makes some sense. Istif have 16 vls each. They were supposed to be equipped with quad packed essm. Now we are going to use Siper and Hisar-D but these won't be quadpacked at the moment. So from 256 ESSM missiles we have gone down to 64 total for 4 ships, even if longer range with siper. This is a significant loss of firepower until TF2000 are delivered in 2027 and beyond. Type 23s have 32 vls each, and I think they can contain 32 CAMM. and addition of 64 missiles before arrival of TF2000 sounds nice, especially if these ships can be delivered quickly and for cheap. Would have been tremendous if they could have been quad packed with sea ceptor. What makes less sense is that these ships don't have ADVENT CMS, isn't integration of every platform to that ecosystem a big deal for navy? So these would be just an interim solution without extensive modernization, and if there is need for extensive modernization, why not focus on our existing programs?
 

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Iirc, Chilean Navy got 3 of these for about £150M. If we could get a similar or better deal for let's say 5 frigates that would give us pretty good cover until we get our own frigates and destroyer in service. These ships still have 20 years or so in their service life and they upgraded relatively recently.
 

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msb-firkateyn-type-23-ingiltere-640x346.jpeg


The Ministry of National Defense is purchasing Type-23 frigates from the British Royal Navy.

After the visit of Minister of National Defense Hulusi Akar, who met with his British counterpart Ben Wallace the previous day, it was learned that he made a purchase agreement for the Type-23 frigates, which are used in active duty in the Royal Navy and currently have 12 in their navy. Type-23 frigates stand out with their design for anti-submarine defenses.

Features of Type-23 frigates

Length: 133 meters
Width: 16.1 meters
Draft: 7.3 meters
Drive: CODLAG power generation system
4 pieces of 2025 hp Paxman Valenta 12 CM diesel engines
2 GE production 3996 hp electric motors
2 Rolls Royce production SM1C gas turbine engines with 26,150 hp
Speed: Maximum 28 knots
Range: 14,000 km
Boat: 2 RIBs

Weapon Systems
1 BAE Systems production 114 mm bow cannon
32 GWS.26 VLS launchers
10 km range Sea Wolf and 25 km range Sea Captor air defense missiles
8 Harpoon anti-ship missiles
4 Sting Ray light torpedoes
2 DS-30 30 mm guns
1 Wildcat or Merlin marine helicopter


My sources within the Ministry of National Defense said that only the capabilities of the ship were examined and there was no final purchase decision.
 

Anmdt

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UK offered HMS Monmouth (already decommissioned) and HMS Montrose (Still active) to the Greeks as a gift if they bought 4 Type31 frigates . But they opted for the French ships.
So in reality the British have given up on these ships. They are being used as sweeteners to entice customers to buy more lucrative equipment ; Typhoons? RR engines?

I really doubt these ships to be used at combat duties, despite of some news sources reporting, these ships are no way close to be a "good candidate for LHD protection", the only scenario that could be accepted by Navy is to use these ships as ocean-going long endurance OPVs to be deployed in Libya - Qatar - Somalia etc.

Also add logistic complexity and added costs as we will need UK to maintain these ships and subsystems.

Instead of spending $50 mil per ship upfront + $50 mil per ship modernization + $25mil annually upkeeping costs, we can opt for Type 31 or Babcock's Arrowhead with our own system and customized with common systems that TN uses.
 

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Well if we stay realistic what other alternatives do we have as "good candidate for LHD protection"?

We have our 4 Perry's but those have been used very intensive the last couple of years around the Libya issue. Until the TF2000 comes we do need something, so replacing the Perry's with Type 23 interim may not be that bad after all
 

Anmdt

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Well if we stay realistic what other alternatives do we have as "good candidate for LHD protection"?

We have our 4 Perry's but those have been used very intensive the last couple of years around the Libya issue. Until the TF2000 comes we do need something, so replacing the Perry's with Type 23 interim may not be that bad after all
And should we just get Type 23 just because it is available?

We can get new Type 31s or Arrowhead 140s customized to our needs in the time that will be required to modernize Type 23s to suit the duty.
 

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And should we just get Type 23 just because it is available?

We can get new Type 31s or Arrowhead 140s customized to our needs in the time that will be required to modernize Type 23s to suit the duty.
I wish I could answer that but I am not a naval admiral to know in detail the state and needs of our navy.

There are two things:
1 Technical aspect I rather see our own indigenous ships than any other ship in our navy
2 Operational aspect, what are the things that we civilians do not get to see? Maybe there is an urgent need.
 

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It is very costly to produce such a ship. We don't have that much time either. Even if we balance the money somehow, it will take 6-7 years for the first ship to enter the inventory.
Yes its costly but the Turkish navy would eventually need a warship between the I-Class, and the TF-2000. The TF-2000 in fact would be very costly but bring a new capability the Turkish navy. Why would it take 6-7 years?
 

Anmdt

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It is very costly to produce such a ship
It is not that costly, We can simply use sensor and weapon suite of I-Class to derive a larger ship with %20-30 increase at the price and add one more X-band radar in rotating configuration to provide better coverage etc.

Most of the cost is made up by propulsion, gensets, sensors and weapons. Rest is common ship equipment (but certified for military use). Even by opting for 2 + 2 DE instead of 1GT + 2 DE and RENK CODAG gearbox we would save money.

The point is, Navy has evaluated possibility of such a design few years ago for the emerging needs, however higher ups (in the ministry - government) have ignored it.

If we sorted out Arrowhead deal, that would take 4 years to commission the first ship with customization.

I wish I could answer that but I am not a naval admiral to know in detail the state and needs of our navy.

There are two things:
1 Technical aspect I rather see our own indigenous ships than any other ship in our navy
2 Operational aspect, what are the things that we civilians do not get to see? Maybe there is an urgent need.
Urgent needs? Navy is so far the best organization to plan their needs from years ago. They knew they were going to need a platform to escort Anadolu since 2010s. It is about higher ups.

The point is even the news sources are reading this forum to extract information and to write articles, how funny right? We write something here then in 30 mins they come up with an article which is again, re-posted in here as a "reliable source" :).
 

Quasar

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a new type of radar

new types of engines

new types of missiles

a new type naval gun

a new combat managment system

.
.
.

Guess almost everthing on this ship is new/different to TN... potantail for serious logistic and suply chain problems??? UK lives in their own world with their own standarts
 

Yasar_TR

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I really doubt these ships to be used at combat duties, despite of some news sources reporting, these ships are no way close to be a "good candidate for LHD protection", the only scenario that could be accepted by Navy is to use these ships as ocean-going long endurance OPVs to be deployed in Libya - Qatar - Somalia etc.

Also add logistic complexity and added costs as we will need UK to maintain these ships and subsystems.

Instead of spending $50 mil per ship upfront + $50 mil per ship modernization + $25mil annually upkeeping costs, we can opt for Type 31 or Babcock's Arrowhead with our own system and customized with common systems that TN uses.
I agree that these ships are not built for protection of larger platforms. That is the duty of the Type26 (City Class) frigates, which are in fact the natural and logical choice to fit between I-Class and TF-2000.
Type 31 (Inspiration Class) being a new ship is actually the replacement of the Type 23 (Duke Class) that is coming to the end of it’s operational life.
Logistical problems alone should prohibit the purchase of these ships. Our logical move should be to move more cash in to getting our 4500ton frigates and completing the I-Class program asap.
 
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Knowledgeseeker

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It is not that costly, We can simply use sensor and weapon suite of I-Class to derive a larger ship with %20-30 increase at the price and add one more X-band radar in rotating configuration to provide better coverage etc.

Most of the cost is made up by propulsion, gensets, sensors and weapons. Rest is common ship equipment (but certified for military use). Even by opting for 2 + 2 DE instead of 1GT + 2 DE and RENK CODAG gearbox we would save money.

The point is, Navy has evaluated possibility of such a design few years ago for the emerging needs, however higher ups (in the ministry - government) have ignored it.

If we sorted out Arrowhead deal, that would take 4 years to commission the first ship with customization.


Urgent needs? Navy is so far the best organization to plan their needs from years ago. They knew they were going to need a platform to escort Anadolu since 2010s. It is about higher ups.

The point is even the news sources are reading this forum to extract information and to write articles, how funny right? We write something here then in 30 mins they come up with an article which is again, re-posted in here as a "reliable source" :).
The hull would not be twice the size in lenght either compared to the I-Class so the development of a new 5000-6000 ton frigate would not be challenging for the turkish naval industry. I realised that the french, and the Italians have gone for alot of FREMM frigates making it their backbone in their navy. Their corvettes are mostly used as OPV.
 

Anmdt

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I agree that these ships are not built for protection of larger platforms. That is the duty of the Type26 (City Class) frigates.
in fact they are the natural and logical choice to fit between I-Class and TF-2000.
Type 31 (Inspiration Class) being a new ship is actually the replacement of the Type 23 (Duke Class) that is coming to the end of it’s operational life.
Logistical problems alone should prohibit the purchase of these ships. Our logical move should be to move more cash in to getting our 4500ton frigates and completing the I-Class program asap.
I-Class is completed, all need to be done is launching the construction programme, all technical drawings, scantlings, technical packages, logistic documents are ready. It doesn't consume man-hours in terms of design studies.

Next goal is TF2000 and MILDEN that is going to be challenging.

Armerkom and DPO worked on TF2000 in a way that, a new lighter design can be derived easily similar to the Type 31.
 

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I-Class is completed, all need to be done is launching the construction programme, all technical drawings, scantlings, technical packages, logistic documents are ready. It doesn't consume man-hours in terms of design studies.

Next goal is TF2000 and MILDEN that is going to be challenging.

Armerkom and DPO worked on TF2000 in a way that, a new lighter design can be derived easily similar to the Type 31.

What are your thoughts about Dearsan's frigate?

It looks like just what we need. I guess they can build them rather quickly but they are not even mentioned.

Are there common secrets that Navy doesn't even consider Dearsan or is it just that Navy being conservetive and only work with their designs?
 

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