TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

[Lool]

The chairman of Tübitak SAGE Gürcan Okumuş announced that if the F-35s enter the inventory, it will be necessary to work with Lockheed Martin to integrate national projects.
In short, it would not be possible to use national air-to-air and air-to-land/to-sea missiles in F-35s in the event of a veiled or obvious embargo.
He also stressed that the integration of national munitions into an F-35 fighter aircraft would not be done as the issuance of source code, but rather by Lockheed Martin. Even Mr. Gürcan Okumuş pointed out that it is doubtful that American-made air-to-air missiles will work.

So if Turkey had bought the F-35s, it probably would never have had the source code. I wonder if they're still here talking about how much the F-35s are necessary for us?

This project was undoubtedly one of the projects that would ruin the future of the Turkish Air Force and end Turkey's independence. I'm very happy that the F-35 issue is closed for us.

For me, the main problem of the F35 isnt the purchase cost of the plane or even the weaponry
Think about it, if the USA didnt give us the weaponry, turkey will just ditch the F35 and search for planes from russia. In fact, Turkey at that moment will have a legitimate excuse to buy Russian weapons!

The main problems with the F35 are mainly:
A) High maintenance cost. That thing sucks money fatser than a typhoon. Just look at the numbers; 3 to 4 Rafales cost the same as 1 F35 in the sky for an hour. Like wtf this thing is way too expensive in the long term

B) The USA will never give the code of altering the F35 to turkey so it is basically tons of metal in the ground



Basically, the F35 is a lost cause and many nations are reducing their orders for the plane

 

[Ryder]

F35 is going to become like the F22 another elite fighter not a work horse.

 

[Philip the Arab]

F35 is going to become like the F22 another elite fighter not a work horse.

I don't agree 100%, but I think you mean more of a F-15.

 

[Ryder]

I don't agree 100%, but I think you mean more of a F-15.

F15 and the F16 are work horses they are hard to replace.

 

[Philip the Arab]

F15 and the F16 are work horses they are hard to replace.

F-15 was only made in the 1000 region though which is quite small.

 

[Ryder]

F-15 was only made in the 1000 region though which is quite small.

I dont see the F35 even coming towards a 1000

 

[Stuka]

The Discussions are great but I like to point out that the F35 hasn't even reached Block 4 Upgrade but has been evolving greatly take a look at Mission Capability rate in comparison with other Fighters if the US Air Force

> F35B doesn't even have any Competition and would be a great force multiplier with TCG Anadolu.

> The hourly cost will be dropped to 24000 USD levels in 3 Years, which I believe is fair for a 5th Gen Fighter.

> Price per Plane in Lot14 is 77.9 Million which is quite affordable as well, especially compared to other Jets.

The F35 is a great plane but a bad Project.

 

[500]

F35 is going to become like the F22 another elite fighter not a work horse.

In Israel F-35A are already replacing F-16C (two F-16C squadrons closed and 2 F-35A squadrons opened).

 

[TR_123456]

For me, the main problem of the F35 isnt the purchase cost of the plane or even the weaponry
Think about it, if the USA didnt give us the weaponry, turkey will just ditch the F35 and search for planes from russia. In fact, Turkey at that moment will have a legitimate excuse to buy Russian weapons!

The main problems with the F35 are mainly:
A) High maintenance cost. That thing sucks money fatser than a typhoon. Just look at the numbers; 3 to 4 Rafales cost the same as 1 F35 in the sky for an hour. Like wtf this thing is way too expensive in the long term

B) The USA will never give the code of altering the F35 to turkey so it is basically tons of metal in the ground



Basically, the F35 is a lost cause and many nations are reducing their orders for the plane

The costs of the the Russian choice would be higher.
You need a whole new infrastructure.

 

[Stimpy75]

ready rate of US fighters....F-22 really sucks

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1397103453013381121

 

[Oublious]

> The hourly cost will be dropped to 24000 USD levels in 3 Years, which I believe is fair for a 5th Gen Fighter.



\

Thats fair?

F35 will be more on the ground then in the air. Lets say a F35 have life of 8000 hours. Thats 1 fighter if you have 100 of them what price do you want to pay for?

 

[Stuka]

Thats fair?

F35 will be more on the ground then in the air. Lets say a F35 have life of 8000 hours. Thats 1 fighter if you have 100 of them what price do you want to pay for?

Why will the F35 be on the ground ?

The F35 wasn't made for asymmetrical warfare but rather as deterrence against other nations.

> The Price of the Fighter is 77 Million which is quite cheap as I mentioned.
The Industrial participation was around 10Billion USD, 100 F35s are 7.7Billion USD.

> Additionally Turkey is a Maintenance Hub for the Jet.

"According to the statement made by the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), the US Department of Defense has completed its works for the selection of the European region hull and engine heavy maintenance and repair centers, which it conducts as part of the global maintenance of the new generation fighter jet JSF / F-35."

"As a result of the analysis, Turkey gained the right to be the first center to be established in 2018 to provide heavy maintenance and repair services to the engines of JSF aircraft belonging to all users in the European region."

Son dakika... Nefes kredisinde detaylar belli oldu

Hazine ve Maliye Bakanlığı nefes kredisinde detayları açıkladı. 2020 yılı cirosu 1 milyon TL’yi aşmayan KOBİ’ler azami 50 bin TL, cirosu 1-10 milyon TL...

www.hurriyet.com.tr

> And the Turkish Air Force planned there Future accordingly now they are stuck with obsolete F4s.
- after all why are most uncomfortable with Greece's interest in the Jet ?



All in all I am aware of the problems with the Jet but it wont fail it is too big to fail at this point, as more Countries will acquire the more acceptance will follow.

 

[Oublious]

Why will the F35 be on the ground ?

The F35 wasn't made for asymmetrical warfare but rather as deterrence against other nations.

> The Price of the Fighter is 77 Million which is quite cheap as I mentioned.
The Industrial participation was around 10Billion USD, 100 F35s are 7.7Billion USD.

> Additionally Turkey is a Maintenance Hub for the Jet.

"According to the statement made by the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), the US Department of Defense has completed its works for the selection of the European region hull and engine heavy maintenance and repair centers, which it conducts as part of the global maintenance of the new generation fighter jet JSF / F-35."

"As a result of the analysis, Turkey gained the right to be the first center to be established in 2018 to provide heavy maintenance and repair services to the engines of JSF aircraft belonging to all users in the European region."

Son dakika... Nefes kredisinde detaylar belli oldu

Hazine ve Maliye Bakanlığı nefes kredisinde detayları açıkladı. 2020 yılı cirosu 1 milyon TL’yi aşmayan KOBİ’ler azami 50 bin TL, cirosu 1-10 milyon TL...

www.hurriyet.com.tr

> And the Turkish Air Force planned there Future accordingly now they are stuck with obsolete F4s.
- after all why are most uncomfortable with Greece's interest in the Jet ?



All in all I am aware of the problems with the Jet but it wont fail it is too big to fail at this point, as more Countries will acquire the more acceptance will follow.

So you want to use another figher beside F35?

Fact is to expensive fighter...

 

[astragan]

I truly believe that our order of over 100 F35s was a bit excessive. We don’t exclusively need over 100 stealth fighters. Nobody needs 100 stealth fighters. What is even the purpose of having so many stealth aircraft? What is the point of second guessing every mission due to high maintenance costs? I’m aware that it is a strong detterrant. However, a smaller order would have easily sufficed. What is our addiction with higher numbers? What we need and have always needed is a healthy amount of next-gen stealth fighters (maybe 30? or perhaps 35 to have a few more to spare) along with an extensive fleet of other less capable and cheaper yet reliable fighter jets like F16s or F15s or MMUs. Turkey does not conduct intelligence missions deep inside enemy territories. We don’t have that many advanced neighbors in the region. We made the biggest mistake in the beginning by ordering too many aircraft.

Don’t get me wrong, I really believe that the F35 is a great aicraft and it would have been a very good addition to our aging yet reliable fleet of F16s. But, we seriously need to stop mourning about the loss of the project and just move on. Perhaps in the future, different governments on both sides may agree on a new deal for the re-admission of Turkey into the project. But for now, we have to focus on MMU and other domestic projects. I would much rather have 200 MMUs than 100 F35s. Our military doctrine and national economy would benefit much more from a fleet of real hitters. I think that F35 is a status symbol. When you have it, you become a part of an exclusive club of nations. I like to think of it as a Lamborghini owners club. The biggest difference between you and the other members is that, the other members only like to drive their Lamborghinis on Sundays to have a short stroll along the beach. Meanwhile, you have to daily drive the thing on country roads and beat the hell out of it.

So, let’s postpone our goal of getting a Lamborghini for now until we can afford to get a Lamborghini for our Sunday strolls. I’m not saying that we should get a Toyota. But let’s not try to get a Lamborghini with enough budget for just a BMW.

 

[Zafer]

I truly believe that our order of over 100 F35s was a bit excessive. We don’t exclusively need over 100 stealth fighters. Nobody needs 100 stealth fighters. What is even the purpose of having so many stealth aircraft? What is the point of second guessing every mission due to high maintenance costs? I’m aware that it is a strong detterrant. However, a smaller order would have easily sufficed. What is our addiction with higher numbers? What we need and have always needed is a healthy amount of next-gen stealth fighters (maybe 30? or perhaps 35 to have a few more to spare) along with an extensive fleet of other less capable and cheaper yet reliable fighter jets like F16s or F15s or MMUs. Turkey does not conduct intelligence missions deep inside enemy territories. We don’t have that many advanced neighbors in the region. We made the biggest mistake in the beginning by ordering too many aircraft.

Don’t get me wrong, I really believe that the F35 is a great aicraft and it would have been a very good addition to our aging yet reliable fleet of F16s. But, we seriously need to stop mourning about the loss of the project and just move on. Perhaps in the future, different governments on both sides may agree on a new deal for the re-admission of Turkey into the project. But for now, we have to focus on MMU and other domestic projects. I would much rather have 200 MMUs than 100 F35s. Our military doctrine and national economy would benefit much more from a fleet of real hitters. I think that F35 is a status symbol. When you have it, you become a part of an exclusive club of nations. I like to think of it as a Lamborghini owners club. The biggest difference between you and the other members is that, the other members only like to drive their Lamborghinis on Sundays to have a short stroll along the beach. Meanwhile, you have to daily drive the thing on country roads and beat the hell out of it.

So, let’s postpone our goal of getting a Lamborghini for now until we can afford to get a Lamborghini for our Sunday strolls. I’m not saying that we should get a Toyota. But let’s not try to get a Lamborghini with enough budget for just a BMW.

We will never surrender.

 

[Glass🚬]

Wen lambo

 

[Stimpy75]

this is what a friend on a discord channel p.o.v is what makes a 5th generation a 5th generation (he is working on the F-35 program)

All of this is my personal opinion, your mileage may vary, others may disagree, etc etc.
So. As haram as it is to link the name of Col John Boyd with the current state of fighter aircraft, it cannot be avoided.

First, let me offer my definition of 5th generation aircraft:

For me, the hallmark of the 5th generation (and beyond) fighter aircraft is the focus on building a tight OODA loop and
getting inside the enemy's OODA loop.

This means the tightest possible cycle of:
[16:47]
Observe: through superior ownship sensors across as wide of a band of EM as you can (IR, optical, RF). Remaining undetected
as long as possible to make these observations through stealth technologies.
Orient: Through superior ownship navigation and datalinks
Decide: Through enabling the pilot to make better decisions by being less busy and having an easily grokkable view of
their surroundings. This easily grokkable view is where sensor fusion comes in.
Act: Through superior PVI that allows the pilot to command by second nature, through superior weapons systems that
have the performance necessary to defeat enemies.

Obviously both the F-22 and the F-35 have the first 'O' down because they both have superlative sensors and stealth.
Second 'O': F-35 has the edge here because it can fully participate in legacy (Link 16) datalinks. F-22 can only listen
to L16 traffic, not send.

Decide. Sensor fusion takes inputs from all ownship sensors and if appropriate input from datalink participants to form
a coherent picture of the battlespace. F-35 has a better fusion engine than F-22 but the F-22's ain't bad.

Act: HOTAS, helmet cueing, and voice commands are the technologies here.
[16:48]
What will make 6th gen will be augmenting sensors and pilot decision making via AI, and automated loyal wingmen.

The next gen of AAMs will be crazy hypersonic beasts so LO becomes even more important

I guess there's nothing revolutionary in this line of thought, you can see this happening already.

 

[mulj]

this is what a friend on a discord channel p.o.v is what makes a 5th generation a 5th generation (he's been working more than 10 years on the F-35 program)

All of this is my personal opinion, your mileage may vary, others may disagree, etc etc.
So. As haram as it is to link the name of Col John Boyd with the current state of fighter aircraft, it cannot be avoided.

First, let me offer my definition of 5th generation aircraft:

For me, the hallmark of the 5th generation (and beyond) fighter aircraft is the focus on building a tight OODA loop and
getting inside the enemy's OODA loop.

This means the tightest possible cycle of:
[16:47]
Observe: through superior ownship sensors across as wide of a band of EM as you can (IR, optical, RF). Remaining undetected
as long as possible to make these observations through stealth technologies.
Orient: Through superior ownship navigation and datalinks
Decide: Through enabling the pilot to make better decisions by being less busy and having an easily grokkable view of
their surroundings. This easily grokkable view is where sensor fusion comes in.
Act: Through superior PVI that allows the pilot to command by second nature, through superior weapons systems that
have the performance necessary to defeat enemies.

Obviously both the F-22 and the F-35 have the first 'O' down because they both have superlative sensors and stealth.
Second 'O': F-35 has the edge here because it can fully participate in legacy (Link 16) datalinks. F-22 can only listen
to L16 traffic, not send.

Decide. Sensor fusion takes inputs from all ownship sensors and if appropriate input from datalink participants to form
a coherent picture of the battlespace. F-35 has a better fusion engine than F-22 but the F-22's ain't bad.

Act: HOTAS, helmet cueing, and voice commands are the technologies here.
[16:48]
What will make 6th gen will be augmenting sensors and pilot decision making via AI, and automated loyal wingmen.

The next gen of AAMs will be crazy hypersonic beasts so LO becomes even more important

I guess there's nothing revolutionary in this line of thought, you can see this happening already.

Beside last point, some sorts of loyal wings program could nulify all this advantages of stealth fighter even today, 4.5 gen will be viable for long time.
It is better to have domestic radars, projectils and electronics with hidden perfomances then dozens of f35 anytime.

 

[Stimpy75]

sensor fusion

 

[kimov]

Radar signature of F35, check!!
F35 with a Su-30

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1402620667862847492