TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

[Ryder]

I thought the F35 was powered by GE engines??

Arent the F35Bs powered by Rolls Royce??

Or is it just Pratt and Whitney?

 

[Yasar_TR]

I thought the F35 was powered by GE engines??

Arent the F35Bs powered by Rolls Royce??

Or is it just Pratt and Whitney?

F35’s engine is f135 produced by P&W.
GE and RR produced f136 for the same plane . But was not chosen.
P&W’s partner in Turkey is Kale.

 

[Ryder]

F35’s engine is f135 produced by P&W.
GE and RR produced f136 for the same plane . But was not chosen.
P&W’s partner in Turkey is Kale.

Ahh okay thanks man. We should ask GE and RR to sell the F136 to us

 

[Yasar_TR]

Ahh okay thanks man. We should ask GE and RR to sell the F136 to us

Actually if we had not alienated RR few years ago with TR Motor/Qatar fiasco , we could have asked RR to produce it. Or at least something similar to it!
But the rate our engine projects are developing at the moment, I can’t see us, but going in to some sort of licensed production scheme for the two engines we will need for Hurjet and TFX! At least for the interim period!

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Since they haven't paid the 1.5 billion back, why don't they (Kale) spike up the prices claiming that they've increased man hours due to covid, or maybe actually do it. TAI is still producing other parts for the F-35 throughout 2022 and they should use this to the country's advantage.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Since they haven't paid the 1.5 billion back, why don't they (Kale) spike up the prices claiming that they've increased man hours due to covid, or maybe actually do it. TAI is still producing other parts for the F-35 throughout 2022 and they should use this to the country's advantage.

Kale and P&W can not be party to this conflict. It is between MOD Turkey and LM. Kale is a subcontractor to P&W. It has no legal standing in this argument.
Also how much do you think those parts are? Compared to what they owe us, it is less than peanuts , no matter how much they can hike up the prices.
I believe we should get our money back. Now that officially we have been kicked out We can demand it. Before it was a suspension. Now we are out!

 

[Bogeyman]

Netherlands lands all F-35 jets on engine wear concerns​

The Netherlands Defense Ministry said on Thursday that all nine of its F-35 fighter jets were grounded because of concerns that grit blown up from the runway had potentially caused engine wear.

Three jets at the Leeuwarden Air Base were found to have engine wear earlier than expected and the decision to ground flights is a precaution to prevent possible subsequent damage, it said in a statement.

"The grit would have come from an anti-slip layer of the runway system at Leeuwarden Air Base," said the ministry. “As far as is known, the Netherlands is the only F-35 flying country that has this wear and tear on F-35 engines.”

It said the F-35 has a heavier engine than an F-16 and blows up more grit while taxiing, underlining the form of wear has not been observed with the F-16.

Netherlands lands all F-35 jets on engine wear concerns

Grit blown up from runway potentially caused engine wear, defense ministry says - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Kale and P&W can not be party to this conflict. It is between MOD Turkey and LM. Kale is a subcontractor to P&W. It has no legal standing in this argument.
Also how much do you think those parts are? Compared to what they owe us, it is less than peanuts , no matter how much they can hike up the prices.
I believe we should get our money back. Now that officially we have been kicked out We can demand it. Before it was a suspension. Now we are out!

True, but it would be a move. Some retaliaion if you will and since the prices are going to go up, why not add some salt to it?

 

[Deliorman]

Why not just produce some faulty parts for them as a “good bye” gift or something.

May the whole F-35 project be cursed and be sure that after I said it it will be! My curses are stronger than that of a dead Pharaoh.

 

[Bogeyman]

Air Force Wants to Cut 421 Old Fighters, Buy 304 New Ones​

Beyond the FYDP, and potentially into the 2030s, the Air Force expects about 600 “post block” F-16s—C/D models from Block 40 on—to remain in the force with with some upgrades, useful in both permissive and some competitive environments. The transition to the MR-X is expected “in the mid-30s.” This new airplane will be a “clean sheet” design, created by digital methods, and the “decision point” to launch the program is now expected to be “six to eight years away,” according to the document. The MR-X “must be able to affordably perform missions short of high-end warfare.” The F-35 could potentially fill this role, but only if its operating costs could be “brought significantly lower.”

Air Force Wants to Cut 421 Old Fighters, Buy 304 New Ones | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The Air Force will ask Congress to retire 421 legacy aircraft through 2026, replacing them with just 304 new fighters, according to talking points obtained by Air & Space Forces Magazine.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[Cypro]

F35s will never be able to replace F16 in terms of operating cost, it looks impossible, the plane is fragile, needs constant maintenance and checks. Stuffed with many tech which are still maturing. USA also will end up diminishing orders and looking for cheaper workhorse.

If they are retiring F16 block 30s, and if Turkey hadn't have that bad relations, would you think it will be a good idea to buy 100 cheap second hand f16 from old US stock and modernize them locally? In exchange for F35 money.. US should compensate Turkey somehow, either fresh F16s or something else.

 

[Cypro]

yeah already happening.. logic says wait until it get mature.. however this plane is under development like 20+ years.. what a joke

​

USAF to Cut F-35 Buy in Future Years Defense Plan​

The Air Force will ask Congress to retire 421 legacy aircraft through 2026, replacing them with just 304 new fighters, according to fiscal 2022 budget talking points obtained by Air Force Magazine. The savings derived from operating a smaller fleet will be put toward acquiring new systems such as the Next-Generation Air Dominance fighter later this decade, and a new Multi-Role fighter, called MR-X, in the 2030s.

The 421 aircraft include a total phase-out of the aged F-15C/D fleet, numbering about 234 aircraft, by the end of fiscal 2026. The F-16 fleet would be reduced by 124 aircraft, mostly from what are called the “pre-block,” or oldest models, leaving a force of 812, also by the end of 2026. The A-10 attack plane would be reduced from 281 total aircraft to 218, for a reduction of 63 tails, but on a more aggressive timeline ending in fiscal 2023.

Over the future years defense plan ending in fiscal ’26, the Air Force would also bring on 84 new F-15EX and 220 F-35A fighters, resulting in a net reduction of 117 jets over the five-year period. The downsizing would be the largest since the “CAF Redux,” or Combat Air Forces Reduction of the early 2010s, in which USAF trimmed its fleet by about 250 airplanes.

Air Force leaders have been pushing for several years to be allowed to retire legacy systems in order to pay for new ones that will be more relevant to the future fight, particularly in the Indo-Pacific theater. Service officials in recent days have said they plan to start phasing out the fifth-generation F-22 in 2030, to be replaced by the classified NGAD family of systems, known to be at least one manned fighter and potentially several unmanned variants. Like the NGAD, the new MR-X would also be designed using new digital methodology to drastically reduce design, development and fielding timelines, while sharply reducing sustainment costs by baking in a short service life, with the expectation that successor aircraft will follow swiftly.

More On

USAF to Cut F-35 Buy in Future Years Defense Plan | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The Air Force will propose about a 10 percent cut in its planned F-35 purchases in the upcoming future years defense plan.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[Ryder]

F35s will never be able to replace F16 in terms of operating cost, it looks impossible, the plane is fragile, needs constant maintenance and checks. Stuffed with many tech which are still maturing. USA also will end up diminishing orders and looking for cheaper workhorse.

If they are retiring F16 block 30s, and if Turkey hadn't have that bad relations, would you think it will be a good idea to buy 100 cheap second hand f16 from old US stock and modernize them locally? In exchange for F35 money.. US should compensate Turkey somehow, either fresh F16s or something else.

Honestly i dont mind if they give the F15 EX as a compensation.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Honestly i dont mind if they give the F15 EX as a compensation.

F15EX will cost us, 200million each. Empty, to the US airforce they are 87.7 million each. With parts, extra engines, maintenance package, weapons (As they will not give partial access to coding, we won’t be able to integrate our own weapons), etc. The unit price will escalate. Boeing just got a 23billion dollar order for 144 planes. That comes to 160 million dollar each. In fact they estimate that each plane will cost around 667 million dollar each during it’s lifetime without the weapons.
At 100, or even 150 million dollar each, I would rather have TFX.
Only plane that will cut it with our airforce is 30 x F16V70. But even those, if ordered today, will not be ready to deliver until 2025-27. (Taiwan ordered 66 f16v70’s in 2019 for 62 billion dollars. They will be starting deliveries in 2023 for pre testing and completion is 2026.)

How much cheaper is the F-15EX compared to the F-35? - Sandboxx

In this era of flying stealth supercomputers like the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and F-22 Raptor, many have questioned the wisdom of purchasing a slew of new old fighters. The F-15EX does not boast any stealth capabilities, nor does it have the same knack for sensor fusion that has earned the...

www.sandboxx.us

Boeing lands the first order of the F-15EX

The first award covers an initial lot of eight jets.

www.defensenews.com

Military Daily News

Daily updates of everything that you need know about what is going on in the military community and abroad including military gear and equipment, breaking news, international news and more.

www.military.com

 

[Ryder]

F15EX will cost us, 200million each. Empty, to the US airforce they are 87.7 million each. With parts, extra engines, maintenance package, weapons (As they will not give partial access to coding, we won’t be able to integrate our own weapons), etc. The unit price will escalate. Boeing just got a 23billion dollar order for 144 planes. That comes to 160 million dollar each. In fact they estimate that each plane will cost around 667 million dollar each during it’s lifetime without the weapons.
At 100, or even 150 million dollar each, I would rather have TFX.
Only plane that will cut it with our airforce is 30 x F16V70. But even those, if ordered today, will not be ready to deliver until 2025-27. (Taiwan ordered 66 f16v70’s in 2019 for 62 billion dollars. They will be starting deliveries in 2023 for pre testing and completion is 2026.)

How much cheaper is the F-15EX compared to the F-35? - Sandboxx

In this era of flying stealth supercomputers like the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and F-22 Raptor, many have questioned the wisdom of purchasing a slew of new old fighters. The F-15EX does not boast any stealth capabilities, nor does it have the same knack for sensor fusion that has earned the...

www.sandboxx.us

Boeing lands the first order of the F-15EX

The first award covers an initial lot of eight jets.

www.defensenews.com

Military Daily News

Daily updates of everything that you need know about what is going on in the military community and abroad including military gear and equipment, breaking news, international news and more.

www.military.com

Thats overpriced as shit damn!!!

I guess forget the F15EX then.

 

[Cypro]

I also think F15 is much more capable than F35 in terms of giving Turkey Air superiority, but even if Turkey accepts to pay that price, USA never give F15EX.. May be second hand F15s, but with new infrastructure, parts and weapons etc.. It would be a fortune again. Only viable option is to get more F16s

 

[Ecderha]

It is seems to me that you guys did not understand/read it right.
I think you should look between "the Lines"!
Turkiye does not need JUNK anymore. It is not matter that it may "Look like good deal" It is "Shit".
Turkiye took own path which is to build own Fighters "Hurjet and MMU".
Freedom to configure hou own Fighters is a WIN WIN and at the same time it is UNKNOWN factor for the Enemies.
It may look like you the you THINK you know the capability of the Fighter by looking outiside or some information, BUT you lying youself.


If you buy a JUNK "even if it is look like new" from other country like USA or Russia.
"It mean that this Fighter is not configurable-> half fighter-> predictable junk-> CAN'T used against specific countries because USA or Russia does not allow it "

So Conclusion is simple -> if you can build OWN it is WIN WIN for you.
Don't look for other options ALL of THEM make you WEAK and BOND to OTHER like pseudo Ally USA -> which SOLD Turkiye so many times.
Which made History of so many times back stabing Turkiye that you guy keep forgeting.
We are NOT in 70,80,90 or 2000

 

[Stuka]

I also think F15 is much more capable than F35 in terms of giving Turkey Air superiority, but even if Turkey accepts to pay that price, USA never give F15EX.. May be second hand F15s, but with new infrastructure, parts and weapons etc.. It would be a fortune again. Only viable option is to get more F16s

I Agree with what has been said and the monetary situation of the republic is quite bad.

BUT!

> We have to understand the Status Quo. The Turkish Republic has always maintained air superiorly in the Region regardless of the Opposing Force.
And back then Turkey knew to not let their ambitions surpass their capacity. Which meant that Turkey had an effective Politics AND effective Army.

> After 2010 Turkeys ambitions surpassed their Capacity and they ended up isolated and heavily damaged Economy. Looking for Alternatives in East like Russia or China but their Economic benefits were and are non existent ( Trade deficit )
The President was the world is bigger than 5 but at the same Time asking USA to jointly fight in Syria. > Unpredictable Politics = Bad.

> Either you have bad Foreign Policy or Superior Armed Forces and Turkey is on it way to loose both

> Now Turkey wants to start a dialogue with the West again, withdrawing their Research Ships from the Aegis was a start.
> General Akar talked about the Crete Model for S400 which implies that they regret it but can not go back for internal Politics reasons (Populism)

> Turkey needs desperately to find its role and the signs show towards the West and the mildly formulated Armenian Genocide Note proves that, even going as far to call President Erdogan beforehand an making sure all parties agree with the Formulations.
I believe that Turkey will decide to partner with the US and the Announcement will Follow after NATO Meeting in June.
As for the F35. The USA will ask a higher Price and no Industry Participation as a Punishment of sorts.

My Two Cents.

 

[Bogeyman]

The chairman of Tübitak SAGE Gürcan Okumuş announced that if the F-35s enter the inventory, it will be necessary to work with Lockheed Martin to integrate national projects.
In short, it would not be possible to use national air-to-air and air-to-land/to-sea missiles in F-35s in the event of a veiled or obvious embargo.
He also stressed that the integration of national munitions into an F-35 fighter aircraft would not be done as the issuance of source code, but rather by Lockheed Martin. Even Mr. Gürcan Okumuş pointed out that it is doubtful that American-made air-to-air missiles will work.

So if Turkey had bought the F-35s, it probably would never have had the source code. I wonder if they're still here talking about how much the F-35s are necessary for us?

This project was undoubtedly one of the projects that would ruin the future of the Turkish Air Force and end Turkey's independence. I'm very happy that the F-35 issue is closed for us.

 

[Spook]

The chairman of Tübitak SAGE Gürcan Okumuş announced that if the F-35s enter the inventory, it will be necessary to work with Lockheed Martin to integrate national projects.
In short, it would not be possible to use national air-to-air and air-to-land/to-sea missiles in F-35s in the event of a veiled or obvious embargo.
He also stressed that the integration of national munitions into an F-35 fighter aircraft would not be done as the issuance of source code, but rather by Lockheed Martin. Even Mr. Gürcan Okumuş pointed out that it is doubtful that American-made air-to-air missiles will work.

So if Turkey had bought the F-35s, it probably would never have had the source code. I wonder if they're still here talking about how much the F-35s are necessary for us?

This project was undoubtedly one of the projects that would ruin the future of the Turkish Air Force and end Turkey's independence. I'm very happy that the F-35 issue is closed for us.

I don't support F-35 procurement either but still does not change the fact that we remained a partner in the program since 2002. We did make the mistake of planning the Air Force's future based on F-35 procurement. Later, we got ended up ousted from the program by giving them leverage over a missile system that we could never be able to use to it's full potential for many reasons. If we were to remain in the program, procuring like the planned 120 aircraft, would had been a disaster. it would had been in our best interest to not the make any additional orders or at least keep the order amount a lot less then planned.

MMU program would be a lot difficult than it already is if we didn't gain experience from manufacturing F-35 parts. Biggest benefit aside from industrial participation, we would had gotten very valuable knowledge, experience from operating, maintaining such sophisticated aircraft. We could had applied that knowledge to MMU program even more, improve our air defense capabilities, early warning systems etc.