TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

[mulj]

Every complex weapon will became useless very fast without proper maintenance.

You know very well that particular issues with f35 are not matter of maintenance other strings attached are

 

[500]

1 and 2 against whom? Greece? Whose all the air ports are within the range of our missiles?

Ballistic missiles are too expensive to use them against airport bunkers. 1 F-35 on the other hand can drop 8 cheap SDBs.

3 and 4 too expensive. Why wouldnt we rely on our drones?

Bombs are cheap. Drones have many limitations. They are very vulnerable to air defence, they carry only small bombs. Surely they cant carry deep strikes at all. Thats basically a specific weapon against weak enemy.

5 and 6 too risky. Why would we use F-35s to take out enemy air defenses? We use electronic warfare systems and cheap drones to get rid of Russian trash.

After taking out S-300/400 F-35 can take out Buk, Pantsir and Tor sams with cheap SDB from safe distance.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Ballistic missiles are too expensive to use them against airport bunkers. 1 F-35 on the other hand can drop 8 cheap SDBs.



Bombs are cheap. Drones have many limitations. They are very vulnerable to air defence, they carry only small bombs. Surely they cant carry deep strikes at all. Thats basically a specific weapon against weak enemy.


After taking out S-300/400 F-35 can take out Buk, Pantsir and Tor sams with cheap SDB from safe distance.

All correct assumptions. But valid for IAF mostly.
For TurAF, cheap 122mm and 230mm artillery rockets fired from Akinci or Aksungur UAVs at 30-35000ft will be like stand-off missiles.
Also both Akinci and Aksungur with their useful loads of 1350kg and 750kg respectively, can carry multiple of these as well as 100kg Kuzgun missiles (SDB with solid fuel or mini turbojet powered) or KGK82 bombs (500lb bombs with wings) to release from stand off distances. Also, Akinci will have an Aesa radar and will carry SOM-J cruise missiles, capable of hitting moving sea targets 250+km away.
Yes ballistic missiles like Bora can be expensive. But what is the point of having hundreds of them if you are not going to use them.
When MIUS becomes available with it’s 3000kg useful load and semi stealthy body, it will add more to the UAV firepower of TurAF.
These and more to come in the future, are all unknown entities to the enemy and are fully controlled and managed by our forces.
F35 in the format we were going to receive, would never have been as effective for us as it is for IAF.

 

[Ardabas34]

Ballistic missiles are too expensive to use them against airport bunkers. 1 F-35 on the other hand can drop 8 cheap SDBs.



Bombs are cheap. Drones have many limitations. They are very vulnerable to air defence, they carry only small bombs. Surely they cant carry deep strikes at all. Thats basically a specific weapon against weak enemy.


After taking out S-300/400 F-35 can take out Buk, Pantsir and Tor sams with cheap SDB from safe distance.

1- If we arent going to use ballistic missiles against such a strategical target as enemys airports, like Yaşar said, what else are we going to use them on?

2- I meant taking off F-35. Thats expensive. Like Yaşar said, Turkey has strategical UCAVs not only tactical ones. Obviously I wasnt thinking of TB2 but more strategical ones like Aksungur and Akinci and the jet powered one that is expected to come in 2023: MIUS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayraktar_MIUS

 

[500]

All correct assumptions. But valid for IAF mostly.
For TurAF, cheap 122mm and 230mm artillery rockets fired from Akinci or Aksungur UAVs at 30-35000ft will be like stand-off missiles.

Israel has operational Eitan UAVs (similar to Akinci) for over a decade. But they are very vulnerable even to old SAMs and fighters. Thats why we never use them in Syria.

Greece has both Patriot and S-300PMU2 they have fighters with AMRAAMs and now Meteors. They can easily shot down slow and high flying UAVs.

You also can see what happened in Syria. Despite Erdogan promises he could not push Assad forces back to previous lines. More over Assad took back Saraqib while Ankas and Bayraktars were still in the air.

 

[Yasar_TR]

You also can see what happened in Syria. Despite Erdogan promises he could not push Assad forces back to previous lines. More over Assad took back Saraqib while Ankas and Bayraktars were still in the air.

If you work with land forces like “Free Syrian Army” your hands are tied.

 

[500]

1- If we arent going to use ballistic missiles against such a strategical target as enemys airports, like Yaşar said, what else are we going to use them on?

2- I meant taking off F-35. Thats expensive. Like Yaşar said, Turkey has strategical UCAVs not only tactical ones. Obviously I wasnt thinking of TB2 but more strategical ones like Aksungur and Akinci and the jet powered one that is expected to come in 2023: MIUS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayraktar_MIUS

In order to hit plane in bunker u need a direct hit. And one missile per bunker. According to Janes Bora has 30-50 m CEP, thats not enough to achieve a direct bunker hit.

With cheap and many SDBs you can destroy all bunkers, runways radars etc

 

[Ecderha]

It is look like that the trend was kicked to start bla bla discussion by isreal group again about F-35 ......

As I said it before I will repeat my self "Turkiye path is not usa or isreal path ". By repeating lies or half trues does not ring the bell anymore.
Trust which WAS build by usa and isreal is LOST. You have other friends which usa and isreal choosen!

So
Turkiye was forced to take that action about s400 by pseudo ally usa (I will keep telling that ).


F-35 is usa platform and usa first friend isreal recieved f-35 platforms which is not partner of f-35 program. They recieved before any other partner of f-35 program.
And this is realty which we live on. Also as we saw that both usa and isreal have access to f-35 platform ( I have to say that to any usa platfrom isreal have access for).

This is the Main Factor of STRATEGIC RISK for Turkiye.

Escpacailly if we look again history -> When Turkiye take some major decision for action usa is always side with conterparts against Turkiye.
And Turkiye is threaten by usa all time when such action is taken in way that usa directly say it you can not use "MY" ->(build and sold for Turkiye) platforms for offense.

You talking about f-35 in such way like we here are somekind of KIDos like it is something like perfect situtaion about f-35 and Turkiye .
but ignoring the Main Question and it is REAL live situtaion WHO controls f-35 platform if Turkiye have it?
I think any clever guy here know the anwser, but there are trolls here and they can keep talking about Theories.

Last 15 years usa and isreal systematically made clear that Turkiye is adversary for them.
To make it clear any platform of usa or isreal is Strategic RISK for Turkiye.

Arguments about f-35 does not have any weight when we talking about Turkiye if it was had f-35.

 

[Yasar_TR]

In order to hit plane in bunker u need a direct hit. And one missile per bunker. According to Janes Bora has 30-50 m CEP, thats not enough to achieve a direct bunker hit.

With cheap and many SDBs you can destroy all bunkers, runways radars etc

Bora is quoted to have 30-50 m CEP. Yes! But…..
I have seen two videos of Bora testing; 0.5 m and 1m away from bullseye hits. One can argue that, this may not be representative of “general accuracy” of targeting for Bora.
But it is said that Bora 2 (presence of which is mentioned but not officially confirmed) is a missile that can hit moving targets. So it is very accurate. It’s range, probably is the reason, it is kept under wraps for the time being.
If correct;
Lora has CEP of 10m.
Iskander has CEP of 5-7m
Latest Bora is a similar quasi ballistic missile like these, especially made to have an accurate seeker head.

 

[Ardabas34]

Israel has operational Eitan UAVs (similar to Akinci) for over a decade. But they are very vulnerable even to old SAMs and fighters. Thats why we never use them in Syria.

Greece has both Patriot and S-300PMU2 they have fighters with AMRAAMs and now Meteors. They can easily shot down slow and high flying UAVs.

You also can see what happened in Syria. Despite Erdogan promises he could not push Assad forces back to previous lines. More over Assad took back Saraqib while Ankas and Bayraktars were still in the air.

What about electronic warfare? There was nothing special/stealth about TB-2 neither. It is a fairly big and slow aircraft. It was the Koral electronic warfare that blinded the Russian anti air systems.
What system does Israel use for electronic warfare?


We obviously also have American missiles like SCALP. To my knowledge the only thing that Greece possesses that gives us a headache for now is the meteors. Turkey even started producing its own WVRAAMs(Gökdogan) and BVRAAMs(Bozdogan) unlike Greece(see GÖKTUĞ project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GÖKTUĞ) who has to buy them. Our indigenous ones arent as advanced as meteor missiles obviously but Greece will have a limited number.

I mean I dont think it will come down to that anyway, Greece wont go in a conventional war against Turkey or vise versa, it will just give us some headache for max 10 years in Aegean sea and thats it. Hopefully we will employ our indigenous 5th generation fighter jet by 2030 and they will be accompanied by MIUS and Goksungur unmanned fighter jets as well.

F-35 would have been a nice addition to our fleet yes but that wasnt a choice left to us, plus being so computerised and the most likely true humours of kill switch and the way USA behaves to Turkey and they themselves roasting the system and retiring F-16s until 2046 instead of 2025 as it was originally planned...yeah.

 

[AWP]

Why do you need S-400? I would chose a squadron of F-35 over S-400 anyday.

F-35 can be effectively used in:

1) DCA - defensive counter air
2) OCA - offensive counter air
3) CAS - close air support
4) DAS - Deep Air Support (aka Air Interdiction)
5) SEAD - suppression of enemy air defenses
6) DEAD - destruction of enemy air defenses

S-400 has limited DCA (low flying targets are limited by ~40 km radius). Very poor OCA. It cant do 3,4,5,6 at all. S-400 can be easily destroyed by one cruise missile strike.

comparing turkey f35 program with the israeli f-35 its quite unfair, in fact comparing the israeli f-35 with any country that owns f35 its really wrong . the israeli version of f-35 I see it as the best even comparing to its own designer the US.

since israel is the pioneer in the electronic warfare and systems in the world , their f-35 have systems even the us don't and can't have . while if turkey got the f-35 it will be totally exposed to the west since the source codes and avionics is foreign product without any access to it .

something else is the political extortion by the us that will face turkey in any use for it's f-35 . turkey would have banned form any f-35 technical support or spare parts in if the f-35 got used against pkk or even al-asad regime . while israel can literally drop nuke bomb from the f-35 on gaza and kill lets say 500k in sec and on the next day it will receive military aid from the us just like the recent conflict in 2021 .

 

[Quasar]

Israel has operational Eitan UAVs (similar to Akinci) for over a decade. But they are very vulnerable even to old SAMs and fighters. Thats why we never use them in Syria.

Greece has both Patriot and S-300PMU2 they have fighters with AMRAAMs and now Meteors. They can easily shot down slow and high flying UAVs.

You also can see what happened in Syria. Despite Erdogan promises he could not push Assad forces back to previous lines. More over Assad took back Saraqib while Ankas and Bayraktars were still in the air.

Akıncı & MIUS(some are in A2A role, some in unmaned SOJ role and some in AEWC role) , kargı and the rest will never be alone in the Air but escorted with F -16 & Peace eagle. in the favorable scenario for Greece, Greek AMRAAMs and Meteors will be already depleted when Greek fighters faces with Turkish ones. Or in worst scenario for Greece Akıncı & MIUS and the rest would already unleased their payloads with in the protected zone provided by SİPER, Hısar-O & RF or may be S 400. while all these are happening Turkish navy will be palying its part and depending on the year of this scenario disparty between Turkish Navy and Greek navy may vary but always in our favour. and again depending of the year not only balistic missiles but also Turkish cruise missiles with differing ranges and types will be playing their roles. Aegian is big but not big enough for suprises. All of our targets are with in approximatly 500 km. almost in all possible scenarios Greece seems to be the underdog.

 

[comolokko]

Akıncı & MIUS, kargı and the rest will never be alone in the Air but escorted with F -16 & Peace eagle. in the favorable scenario for Greece, Greek AMRAAMs and Meteors will be already depleted when Greek fighters faces with Turkish ones. Or in worst scenario for Greece Akıncı & MIUS and the rest would already unleased their payloads with in the protected zone provided by SİPER, Hısar-O & RF or may be S 400. while all these are happening Turkish navy will be palying its part and depending on the year of this scenario disparty between Turkish Navy and Greek navy may vary but always in our favour. and again depending of the year not only balistic missiles but also Turkish cruise missiles with differing ranges and types will be playing their roles. Aegian is big but not big enough for suprises. All of our targets are with in approximatly 500 km.

There is a fact that we need to see that the rules of the game have changed. The determining factor in this new order of war will be space technology. In the near future we will see missiles hanging in space waiting for their target. Among the unmanned attack vehicles, those that will be effective will be explosive-laden mini-sized unmanned autonomous vehicles. these unmanned vehicles will be dressed as a crow or a dolphin or etc.

 

[Combat-Master]

Israel has operational Eitan UAVs (similar to Akinci) for over a decade. But they are very vulnerable even to old SAMs and fighters. Thats why we never use them in Syria.

Greece has both Patriot and S-300PMU2 they have fighters with AMRAAMs and now Meteors. They can easily shot down slow and high flying UAVs.

You also can see what happened in Syria. Despite Erdogan promises he could not push Assad forces back to previous lines. More over Assad took back Saraqib while Ankas and Bayraktars were still in the air.

Sure...

Unammaned, AI operated vehicles is the future. There's no two ways about it.

Once Turkey has a sophisticated arsenal of unmanned aircraft in all tiers, there's no way an airforce with a manned airforce can beat an unmanned airforce.

 

[Kartal1]

In order to hit plane in bunker u need a direct hit. And one missile per bunker. According to Janes Bora has 30-50 m CEP, thats not enough to achieve a direct bunker hit.

With cheap and many SDBs you can destroy all bunkers, runways radars etc

Looking at the Turkish guys statements I will put it that way. Would the Turkish F-35's take off and drop SDBs on Tel Aviv if needed? I don't think so. Purchasing S-400s was a bad decision but purchasing F-35 while looking at Turkey's position and the region's dynamics is also a bad decision.

PS: Please don't be offended by what I said. I just meant to give an example of what limitations these fighter jets have and the implications for Turkey.

 

[Lool]

Looking at the Turkish guys statements I will put it that way. Would the Turkish F-35's take off and drop SDBs on Tel Aviv if needed? I don't think so. Purchasing S-400s was a bad decision but purchasing F-35 while looking at Turkey's position and the region's dynamics is also a bad decision.

PS: Please don't be offended by what I said. I just meant to give an example of what limitations these fighter jets have and the implications for Turkey.

Getting rid of the F35 was the best choice. Not only because it prevented one of the strongest militaries to be bound by a single button in the Pentagon that can literally crumble the whole air force, but also helped the government to concentrate even more on the TFX program
Throughout history, we learned that Turkey became stronger through embargoes and being pushed into a corner. When the US and Israel used to either sell inferior drones or just prevent drone Sales to Erdogan, all what he did is concentrating more on his own drones. Many made fun of him at first, now Baykar is just rocking ass!
Just look at the countries in line for purchasing Baykar. From the East to the West, none cam say no to Baykar and the same will be true for the TFX in the future but still there are people who believe that pleasing the USA and sucking their **** is still the right choice to make. This isnt a thought problem sadly, it is something engraved in their minds and will never change

And I would at least prefer the S400 as I have complete control over it. Yes I wouldnt use it in normal circumstances to prevent pissing of the US, but in times of war, the God damn S400 can still bring stuff down
Sadly, the F35 fanboys dont understand that

 

[what]

I did take time to read the entire thread, most agree that F35 program/purchase was a bad decision, but S400 was worse. That makes me wonder if we could find a way out instead of dodging the bullet, and loose billions of dollars in parts’ production and suffer the consequences? The way I see it we are misguided, and we are making huge mistakes trying to cover up prior failures. I see it as a huge failure for our foreign policy/diplomacy.

I mean, even if the F35 was bad, we could have (if the S400 issue didnt exist) bough a squadron or two, cut our orders and still part of the program. We could have gained experience and much needed export contracts for all the parts that were made in Turkey. Oh and of course the billions of €.

 

[Zafer]

I mean, even if the F35 was bad, we could have (if the S400 issue didnt exist) bough a squadron or two, cut our orders and still part of the program. We could have gained experience and much needed export contracts for all the parts that were made in Turkey. Oh and of course the billions of €.

The situation with the F35 has a lot more to do with us being a player at several conflict zones and making rapid progress in defense industry than buying the S400. This would happen regardless of the S400 purchase.

 

[what]

The situation with the F35 has a lot more to do with us being a player at several conflict zones and making rapid progress in defense industry than buying the S400. This would happen regardless of the S400 purchase.

Thats pure speculation.

 

[Zafer]

Thats pure speculation.

This ultimately happened because of Israels pressure that F35 shouldn't be made available to Turkey. This worked for us as we knew that F35 would only give us trouble and nothing else. We only made it easy for them to make a decision buying the S400.