TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

Yasar_TR

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We should be content with the engines if we get them.
F-35 is not going to happen.
It is in a way better that it doesn’t happen.
More funds for Kaan and related investments.
Another push in the back for our defence industry.
Less hassle for us later re possible US control over our defence matters.

OK we may not have access to the US 5th gen tech. But as it is we are past that point to a certain degree anyway.
 

dBSPL

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F35 has Israel made components, won't fly without Israel's consent.

The main operating system, all of codes, logistics network control and organization, software supervision, and any critical authority that could ground an aircraft in the F-35 program are directly under the control of the US government and the contractor, Lockheed.

Countries producing parts, such as Israel, the Netherlands, the UK, or Australia, have no administrative or operational authority over the ODIN system. ODIN is a cloud-based logistics and mission planning network. Only the US Joint Program Office (JPO) and Lockheed Martin control which parts an aircraft needs, from which warehouse and when those parts will arrive, and whether the aircraft is airworthy. Israel is the only country with the privilege of integrating its own local software into its ordered aircraft (F-35I Adir) with US permission, but it cannot interfere with the global ODIN network.

Israel is not one of the founding partners (Tier 1, 2, or 3) of the project; it has "Security Cooperation Participant" (SCP) status. However, Israeli companies are major producers in two very critical subsystems in the global supply chain. Israel Aerospace Industries manufactures outer wing components for all global F-35 fleets. And, Helmet-Mounted Display System (HMDS) Visors: Elbit Systems, in partnership with Rockwell Collins, manufactures the visors and display subsystems for the helmet technology that pilots use to control the aircraft and provides 360-degree vision.

Because Israel owns the intellectual property (IP) for these parts, it can say, "You cannot sell this part to Türkiye or country X" (political veto). However, technically, they are not "the only/indispensable" option. If the US wishes, it can bypass Israel by expanding Lockheed Martin's own production lines in the US or production lines in other allied countries. This is a very serious move that will directly affect both the production line and the ODIN system, and will create deep complications in its relations with the US. Israel, especially since it is vitally dependent on the US to rapidly replenish its armed forces' ammunition stocks and inventory, cannot afford to engage in such a high-level dispute.

The parts produced by Türkiye in past not sold to a single country, but distributed within a global supply chain to manufacturers in the US (Lockheed Martin), Israel, Australia, and some European countries. And even years later, supply problems persist for a portion of this work share. In Türkiye, TAI (TUSAŞ) was producing critical components of the F-35, including the center fuselage, composite outer coverings, and weapon bay covers. Kale Aviation was also producing landing gear components and locking mechanisms. We had quite extensive industrial involvement; there's no need to go into that in detail again, just as a similar example: for the Panoramic Cockpit Display Electronic Cards and Missile Remote Interface Unit (MRIU) components, we were the sole supplier within JSF. When Turkiye was removed from the program, the production burden and expanded orders for some of these parts were shifted to Israeli (IAI) and US subcontractors with similar industrial infrastructure.

At worst, we will acquire 5-6 of our aircraft and modernize them. If a combat fleet is to be established – bcs all our infrastructure is ready – Turkish aircraft will have a different HMDS within my humble opinion.

In short, the retired US officer's argument is completely flawed from a logistical standpoint. It doesn't matter who produces the part because once it's manufactured, ownership passes to Lockheed Martin and it's distributed by the US via the ODIN system. Israel's blocking of deliveries for systems where it's the sole producer affects the entire program, and its vetoing of intellectual property rights leads to the use of alternative suppliers. Therefore, this political blackmail is not a strong basis given the nature of the program. What the retired officer in this video is doing is largely an attempt to appease public opinion (especially Zionist circles). We won't fall for this bluff, because in the past our position was that if we were removed from the F-35 industrial ecosystem, the project would face difficulties; it did have some impact on costs, but the project somehow continued.
 

Bogeyman 

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It is in a way better that it doesn’t happen.
More funds for Kaan and related investments.
Another push in the back for our defence industry.
Less hassle for us later re possible US control over our defence matters.

OK we may not have access to the US 5th gen tech. But as it is we are past that point to a certain degree anyway.
Who said we could buy 40 F-35s? They will only give us the F-35s produced for us. Even the US itself can't produce radars for its newly manufactured F-35-A fighter jets. Even if they could, there are problems with radar cooling. There are US presidential elections in two years. So we can only add 6 aircraft to our inventory before the elections. Meanwhile, the aircraft produced for us were purchased by the US Air Force. The aircraft were modified for US use. So they are no longer "export versions." The aircraft will be modified again for us. Then we will send the pilots who will use the aircraft for training. So those aircraft will only be delivered in 1.5 years.

We will use the aircraft that arrive in 1.5 years at most to identify shortcomings in the Kaan project. It is impossible for these aircraft to become a strategic asset for the Turkish Air Force.
 

Zafer

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At worst, we will acquire 5-6 of our aircraft and modernize them. If a combat fleet is to be established – bcs all our infrastructure is ready – Turkish aircraft will have a different HMDS within my humble opinion.

If you can get the privilege to modernize than we can modernize the 6 that we had paid for making them the Turkish version. This effort would be for cooperation with other NATO members. Going forward Türkiye can only rely on our own technology in our weapon systems.
 
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dBSPL

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If you can get the previlage to modernize than we can modernise the 6 that we had paid for making them the Turkish version. This effort would be for cooperation with other NATO members. Going forward Türkiye can only rely on our own technology in our weapon systems.
What I mean is, the current aircraft are Block 3F standard and have TR-2 infrastructure. Specifically, to utilize advanced radar systems and electronic warfare capabilities (Block 4), they first need to be upgraded to the TR-3 (Technology Refresh 3) equipment package. Due to serious technical errors in the TR-3 and Block 4 software, full operational capacity will only be reached in 2031. The most critical problem is the supply crisis for the AN/APG-85 GaN radars. However, this new APG-85 radar has not yet been approved for export to allied countries. Therefore, Turkiye may be considering faster procurement by upgrading these aircraft with the AN/APG-81 radar and TR-3 system. So, if these aircraft are to be delivered, in my opinion, the cost of modernization (tens of millions of dollars per aircraft) and the delivery schedule will be the main subject of new negotiations with the US.
 

TR_123456

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It is in a way better that it doesn’t happen.
More funds for Kaan and related investments.
Another push in the back for our defence industry.
Less hassle for us later re possible US control over our defence matters.

OK we may not have access to the US 5th gen tech. But as it is we are past that point to a certain degree anyway.
Yeah,i dont trust the Israel sub systems anyway.
Reminds me of the pagers in Lebanon.
 

dBSPL

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Yeah,i dont trust the Israel sub systems anyway.
Reminds me of the pagers in Lebanon.
Parts produced by Israel for the aircraft are sent to US facilities for integration. Joint production is carried out for allied countries within Lockheed's quality standards. Regarding operational maintenance, the organization is entirely run through ODIN; supplier countries have no authority over this system. Israel can veto the use of its own parts or systems in Turkish aircraft, and that's the only thing it can do, if it's willing to accept the lateral complications it would create.

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Personally, my view is that if a window of opportunity has opened, it won't be for long, and therefore, at least one F-35 fighter squadron should be created. Our information processing and physical infrastructure is already in place, ammunition compatibility is at its highest level, and the cost of six aircraft has already been paid; we won't incur as high a cost as some might think. Our only trade-off is that this fleet will not have autonomous operation capabilities as F-16 or EFT, which will require it to be positioned as a joint platform within the alliance, in line with the program's philosophy. However, an extra bonus is that it could provide the infrastructure for tactical and doctrinal studies, with fifth-generation jets forming the backbone, years before KAAN reaches operational level. The data that the air force will gather from this source could indirectly contribute to the development of KAAN. This will indeed provide an opportunity to measure whether we have built an aircraft that is better than the F-35.
 
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Yasar_TR

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@dBSPL ustat, @TR_123456 may have a point. When parts are produced, I remember they were being allocated for specific aircraft per order. So, for example, we knew when we produced our fuselages. (Common spare parts for general spares stocks may be a different issue).
 

Sanchez

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We should be content with the engines if we get them.
F-35 is not going to happen.
Engines are near done, protest period ends tomorrow.
They will only give us the F-35s produced for us.
None at all. Giving only a handful aircraft to Turkey instead ensures they never become operational and are used as testbed for our own developments. If ^-35 transfer happens, it will be followed by a purchase of a total of 20-40 aircraft.

Even the US itself can't produce radars for its newly manufactured F-35-A fighter jets.
That radar in question is the new APG-85, only used on US models; they are not sharing that yet with anyone; but I'm sure there will be a push to keep Israeli "qualitative edge" and give it to them in future as well. Export deliveries continue without much problems.
 
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