TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Manomed]

They need to find a new name for the suicide drones or the target drones, will only cause confusion if both are named Simsek.

If they act like both decoy and kamikaze they have to shoot them down or şimşek can attack Infastructure.

We can make them deplete their A2A missiles with these tactics.

 

[Afif]

When was the last time BAYKAR made a reference to TEI or TF6000? I don't remember seeing any info about Turkish engine on their brochures. I feel like it's not on their agenda. And while at it, does anyone know about the efficiency difference between TF6000 and AI-322F? Are there enough difference to justify the use the Turkish engine? Baykar has established a joint venture(Blacksea Shield) to produce Ukranian engines, after all. They would like to capitalize on it, I would think.

Current tf6000 variant is too fat compared to AI-322F. they will need a more slim variant to fit in current KE configuration. I think, mr. Askit talked about it in an interview.

 

[Zafer]

Current tf6000 variant is too fat compared to AI-322F. they will need a more slim variant to fit in current KE configuration. I think, mr. Askit talked about it in an interview.

On the contrary Ukranian engines look too slim for the engine housing.

 

[bisbis]

Bro shaheed 136 is long range 2000-3000 km and is all type cheap kamikaze drone
Turna i dont know its range but i dont think its 2000km one . Aslo Kargi is anti radar weapon and will be exoensive . I hope Turkiye produce cheap one abd to hit all kind of targets .

Yes, you are right bro. However, I think that an effective range can be achieved by making minor modifications to Şimşek and Turna aircraft in a short time, increasing the size and increasing the amount of fuel. In addition, if the target aircraft equipment such as parachute and radar tracker are removed, a lot of space is left in the aircraft for fuel.

 

[Afif]

On the contrary Ukranian engines look too slim for the engine housing.

i am not talking about al 25. which looks slim for its back

 

[Agha Sher]

TB2 putting pressure on Al Shabab

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574656836153724928

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574745985611243520

Looking good from Katmerciler and it’s in use.

 

[dBSPL]

Current tf6000 variant is too fat compared to AI-322F. they will need a more slim variant to fit in current KE configuration. I think, mr. Askit talked about it in an interview.

One of the Soviet era AI-25 full naked test running

As seen in the first photo, the engine clearance in the airframe is not designed directly for the AI-25TLT, but has a universal logic for other configurations with the other engines in similar/approximately near diameter and dry weight classes.

TF-6000, declared specs

Edit:

AI-222-25F (AI-322F design is based on the AI-222K-25F)

Thrust :
full power at sea level flight altitude: 4200 kgf
full power at 11,000 m of flight altitude: 2,760 kgf
Take-off mode: 2500 kgf
Cruise mode: 300 kgf

Specific fuel consumption:
Afterburner: 1.9 kg / kgf
Cruise mode: 0.87 kg / kgf • h

Width : 880 mm
Length : 3070 mm
Height : 1084 mm

Dry weight : 560 kg

 

[Era_shield]

Bro shaheed 136 is long range 2000-3000 km and is all type cheap kamikaze drone
Turna i dont know its range but i dont think its 2000km one . Aslo Kargi is anti radar weapon and will be exoensive . I hope Turkiye produce cheap one abd to hit all kind of targets .

According to an analysis by Ukrainian Intelligence released a couple days ago, max range of Shahid-136 is only about 900km.

 

[Yasar_TR]

View attachment 48151

One of the Soviet era AI-25 full naked test running

As seen in the first photo, the engine clearance in the airframe is not designed directly for the AI-25TLT, but has a universal logic for other configurations with the other engines in similar/approximately near diameter and dry weight classes.

TF-6000, declared specs
View attachment 48154

Edit:

AI-222-25F (AI-322F design is based on the AI-222K-25F)

Specific fuel consumption:
Afterburner: 1.9 kg / kgf
Cruise mode: 0.87 kg / kgf • h

Width : 880 mm
Length : 3070 mm
Height : 1084 mm

Dry weight : 560 kg

Usual mistake some people make is taking the fan diameter as the main measurement. Fan diameter of AI25 class engines are around 64cm. They don’t take in to account the parts that protrude at the bottom and around the main engine block. With all that paraphernalia you end up with a 880mm width 1100mm height effectively.
TF6000’s fan diameter is not given. But it should be about the 65cm mark ; Give or take few cms. Our engine’s length is shorter because it doesn’t include the afterburner.

 

[dBSPL]

Usual mistake some people make is taking the fan diameter as the main measurement. Fan diameter of AI25 class engines are around 64cm. They don’t take in to account the parts that protrude at the bottom and around the main engine block. With all that paraphernalia you end up with a 880mm width 1100mm height effectively.
TF6000’s fan diameter is not given. But it should be about the 65cm mark ; Give or take few cms. Our engine’s length is shorter because it doesn’t include the afterburner.

+1. The TF-6000 is roughly in same width/height diameter group with the AI-322, but in this diameter and dry weight class, it is aimed at a high performance engine that will have many features of the new generation engines and fuel economy. So this engine will definitely be used in unmanned jets. The TF-6000 project is indeed a costly engine development program, with its later variants likely planned. What I want to say briefly is that this mid-size-diameter turbofan engine project is not something that develops only at the initiative of TEI. The targeted specs are related to many ongoing projects in various fields of the defense industry or that will soon be on our agenda; besides being the preparation phase of a large-scale engine project.

 

[Rodeo]

Only time they mentioned TEI if I remember, was when they were embargoed heavily by the Canadians and Rotax engine supply ceased. Then they tested PD-170 and were very impressed with it’s power delivery.

Regarding the TF6000 and it’s Ukrainian counterpart ; On paper there is no comparison. TF6000 is miles more advanced than any Soviet era engine. It has blisk fan technology. It uses single crystal turbine blades. Overall efficiency is much more improved.
But if I were to choose today, it will have to be the Ukrainian engine. There is no TF6000 in existence. But when the TF6000 starts spinning, even if it is more expensive it will be cheaper to use it as it is going to be indigenous and technically superior. Hence more frugal on fuel and more akin to an engine for stealth planes.
Comparing the the two is analogous to choosing between carrying passengers with a 1980’s model Ford Transit or with 2020’s Mercedes Vito Tourer.

Thanks. For understanding a little bit better and somewhat benchmark TF6000 against its peers, I dug a little deeper.

Here's a table with similar dry thrusts to TF6000. They're all low-bypass engines. The SFC(Specific Fuel Consumption) values are for sea-level.

	TF6000​	Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour​	AI-322F​	Honeywell/ITEC F124​
Thrust:	6000 lbf	6000 lbf	5500 lbf	6280 lbf
SFC:	0.7 lbf/(lbs.h)	0.81lbf/(lbs.h)	0.64 kgf/kg.h	0.78 lbf/(lbs.h)
Bypass Ratio	1.04	0.75-0.8	1.19?	0.49
First Run	Q1 2023(?)	1968	1998	1979
Dry Weight:	?​	809 kg	560kg	521.6kg

The lower the SFC, the more efficient is the engine. First of all, there are not a lot of recently developed turbofan engines in the same class. Actually, none that I know of. If you know any low-bypass turbofan designed in this millenia, I'd be happy to add it to the table . So my questions are, if you will:

1. The SFC value for AI-322F is given in metric terms. Since the numerator and denominator of both metric and imperial units are the same, I wasn't sure if I should convert the rate by multiplying 2.204. If that is the case, then the engine's SFC is 1.41 . That's an awfully inefficient engine. Even turbojets have lower SFC than that. It didn't make sense. So I left it as it is. But this doesn't make sense either. Because 0.64 is lower than TF6000's SFC of 0.7 . In the most recent interview of Mahmut Akşit, he said TF6000 is much more efficient than its Ukrainian counterparts. This confuses me. Can you shed some light onto this?

2. Is the SFC number tightly correlated with the technology of the engine and not so much with the other factors like the engine's diameter, bypass ratio, service life, maintainability etc. ? I ask this because should we expect similar SFC's from our future, bigger engines(military)? Would it be false to draw parallels between TF6000 and TFX engine(assuming it's designed by TEI) in terms of SFC?

3. How heavy do you think TF6000 will be?


The questions are for anyone who thinks he has an answer for.

@Nilgiri @Yasar @fire starter @TechNamu

Unrelated Edit: How can I give the same width to columns in the table(my first time).

Edit 2: I forgot about Indian HAL HTFE-25 engine. It's still in development. But its latest figures are;

HTFE-25

Thrust: 5600lbf
SFC: 0.71 kg/kgf-hr
Bypass ratio: 0.5
First Run: 2015
Dry weight: 350 kilograms

Here the SFC is also given with metric units. It's less efficient than AI-322F but it's 210kg lighter. It's almost a whopping 40% lighter. How could that be? Now I'm even more confused

 

[Afif]

Usual mistake some people make is taking the fan diameter as the main measurement. Fan diameter of AI25 class engines are around 64cm. They don’t take in to account the parts that protrude at the bottom and around the main engine block. With all that paraphernalia you end up with a 880mm width 1100mm height effectively.
TF6000’s fan diameter is not given. But it should be about the 65cm mark ; Give or take few cms. Our engine’s length is shorter because it doesn’t include the afterburner.

Sorry! I miscalculated! Anyway, i was wonderinh baykar already signed a contract for the 500 engine with ivchenko for next 10 years. I mean, a good portion of it will be AI322F ! So, how or when TEI may have a contract of tf6000 for KE ?

 

[Radko]

Sorry! I miscalculated! Anyway, i was wonderinh baykar already signed a contract for the 500 engine with ivchenko for next 10 years. I mean a good portion of it will be AI322F ! So, how or when tf6000 will get in KE ?

i think that we won't see much TF-6000 serial production ones.

Kızılelma will be used to test the engine and new tech

 

[Bylis]

i think that we won't see much TF-6000 serial production ones.

Kızılelma will be used to test the engine and new tech

Won't it be used in dog fighting? Maybe in a couple of years

 

[Agha Sher]

Sorry! I miscalculated! Anyway, i was wonderinh baykar already signed a contract for the 500 engine with ivchenko for next 10 years. I mean, a good portion of it will be AI322F ! So, how or when TEI may have a contract of tf6000 for KE ?

I think that number includes engines for Akinci. Akinci is already a huge export success so those 500 engines over the next 10 years might fall short. Note: A version of Akinci is also using domestic engines

 

[Radko]

Won't it be used in dog fighting? Maybe in a couple of years

Oh I meant test of TF-6000, we will see it in inventory, just not with TF-6000 (not in high numbers to be exact)

TF-6000 will use Kızılelma as a test bed, testing TVC, nozzle tech etc

 

[Bylis]

Oh I meant test of TF-6000, we will see it in inventory, just not with TF-6000 (not in high numbers to be exact)

TF-6000 will use Kızılelma as a test bed, testing TVC, nozzle tech etc

If not for KE,what will it be used for? I thought it was designed for drones like KE

 

[Radko]

If not for KE,what will it be used for? I thought it was designed for drones like KE

Well yes, but if you scale it up and change some parameters, you get a Hurjet engine, you increase the diameter a bit more you get a 35k Lbf class engine.

The real thing they want to do is test TVC, convergent divergent nozzle, better fuel economy, different fan structure (for RCS reduction), different materials to make heat of engine not leave it, more fuel efficiency etc.


From what I have seen, TF-6000 is choosen because

1-Developing tech
2-Deriaving a turboshaft, enough for 10 ton helo and Atak-2
3-By this, can be used if engine supply is not good enough for KE
4-Moving further into F404(and maybe F414) class thrust
5-Get all these new fan design, new materials, TVC, nozzle tech and bigger diameter to make a TF-X engine

 

[dBSPL]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1574840788672024584