TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

Kitra

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While it would have limited use, it would still be interesting to see Sungur used from UAVs like TB-2. If it weighs similar to Stinger, it should be somewhere between 10 to 20 kgs, TB-2 should be able to, in theory, carry 4 to 8 sungur with its launchers.
On the contrary, a few drones with 4 AA missiles will have a very big impacts on protecting cities against medium size suicide drones such as Shahed or even Predators. It is in reality the best way to protect against other drones.
 

boredaf

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On the contrary, a few drones with 4 AA missiles will have a very big impacts on protecting cities against medium size suicide drones such as Shahed or even Predators. It is in reality the best way to protect against other drones.
This is actually what I meant by "limited use". It can be used against other drones or perhaps helicopters but wouldn't do much good against any decent jet. Nonetheless it would be a great option to have for TB-2 or Anka.
 

UkroTurk

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On the contrary, a few drones with 4 AA missiles will have a very big impacts on protecting cities against medium size suicide drones such as Shahed or even Predators. It is in reality the best way to protect against other drones.
İf you could detect them, your UAVs could engage on Shahids.

The problem with Shahids is detection. How could Flying TB 2 notice Shahids?

If thermal imaging could help, you would need hundreds of TB2 for patrolling.


Need solid radar cover.

Old tech Ground radars barely catch them.
 
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Kitra

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İf you could detect them, your UAVs could engage on Shahids.

The problem with Shahids is detection. How could Flying TB 2 notice Shahids?

If thermal imaging could help, you would need hundreds of TB2 for patrolling.


Need solid radar cover.

Old tech Ground radars barely catch them.
Akinci with Aesa radar for detection and smaller drones with AA spread over large area. Superior to SAM.
 

UkroTurk

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Akinci with Aesa radar for detection and smaller drones with AA spread over large area. Superior to SAM.



Maybe ok, maybe not..No idea.
i would prefer jet powered rapid interceptor UAV with AESA radar and with cheap missiles like SUNGUR. ( Kızılelma and ANKA 3 are best candidates) Could TB2 catch the targets from long distance, if AKINCI's AESA detected?

Currently ground VSHORAD network seems more effective.

But absolutely we should use SUNGURs for loetering ammunition/UAV hunt.
 

boredaf

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Maybe ok, maybe not..No idea.
i would prefer jet powered rapid interceptor UAV with AESA radar and with cheap missiles like SUNGUR. ( Kızılelma and ANKA 3 are best candidates) Could TB2 catch the targets from long distance, if AKINCI's AESA detected?

Currently ground VSHORAD network seems more effective.

But absolutely we should use SUNGURs for loetering ammunition/UAV hunt.
It wouldn't be about "catching" targets though, if we indeed use TB-2 or Anka like that with Akıncı or some other drone or early warning plane, the drones would already be airborne with their Sungur payload. So they would be patrolling a certain airspace to attack any target painted, after all both TB-2 and Anka has something like 24 hours endurance.
 

UkroTurk

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It wouldn't be about "catching" targets though, if we indeed use TB-2 or Anka like that with Akıncı or some other drone or early warning plane, the drones would already be airborne with their Sungur payload. So they would be patrolling a certain airspace to attack any target painted, after all both TB-2 and Anka has something like 24 hours endurance.


How much TB2 do we need over the sky in order to be in right time and right place?
24/7 Every ten miles one TB2?
How could catch TB2 from 100km distance Shahid?

( Again if early warning planes/UAV could detect Shahids)

Against Shahids VSHORAD suits.

"A Ukrainian defense attaché in the United States stated that SA-8 missiles and both the Soviet-era ZSU-23-4 and the German-supplied Flakpanzer Gepard SPAAGs have been used to "great effect" against these "relatively crude" drones."



Ukrainian counter efforts:
The drones are too slow, fly too low and are too small to be detected by MiG-29 radar. One Ukrainian pilot described the drone’s radar picture as similar to a truck on a road. Ukrainian R-73 missiles don’t work in cloud cover. Thus, Ukrainian aircraft can only intercept these drones using their 30mm cannon. Even with guns, the risk of damage to their own aircraft limits such approaches.

Night interceptions are even harder as pilots have to rely on GPS to know whether they are over a population centre, lest a crashing drone cause collateral damage to civilian areas. In most cases all the pilots can do is contact ground based air defences to intercept these drones.

Ukraine's Air Force also believe that the drones are used to test the effectiveness of defences prior to missile attacks, to probe for weaknesses. Ukrainian pilot Vadym Voroshylov was credited with downing 5 Shahed drones in a week. However the explosion of the final drone downed his own MiG-29. Ukraine claims an interception rate of "65% and 85%".
 
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boredaf

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How much TB2 do we need over the sky in order to be in right time and right place?
24/7 Every ten miles one TB2?
How could catch TB2 from 100km distance Shahid?

( Again if early warning planes/UAV could detect Shahids)

Against Shahids VSHORAD suits.

"A Ukrainian defense attaché in the United States stated that SA-8 missiles and both the Soviet-era ZSU-23-4 and the German-supplied Flakpanzer Gepard SPAAGs have been used to "great effect" against these "relatively crude" drones."



Ukrainian counter efforts:
The drones are too slow, fly too low and are too small to be detected by MiG-29 radar. One Ukrainian pilot described the drone’s radar picture as similar to a truck on a road. Ukrainian R-73 missiles don’t work in cloud cover. Thus, Ukrainian aircraft can only intercept these drones using their 30mm cannon. Even with guns, the risk of damage to their own aircraft limits such approaches.

Night interceptions are even harder as pilots have to rely on GPS to know whether they are over a population centre, lest a crashing drone cause collateral damage to civilian areas. In most cases all the pilots can do is contact ground based air defences to intercept these drones.

Ukraine's Air Force also believe that the drones are used to test the effectiveness of defences prior to missile attacks, to probe for weaknesses. Ukrainian pilot Vadym Voroshylov was credited with downing 5 Shahed drones in a week. However the explosion of the final drone downed his own MiG-29. Ukraine claims an interception rate of "65% and 85%".
Why are you focusing on Shahed though? They are not the only threats and drones with aa missiles wouldn't be our only defence against them, they would just be an extra layer in our aa defence network. There is a reason we have fuck ton of 35mm aa systems and are getting new systems and modernizing the old ones. We are ahead of the pack in that regard, most other countries realized how effective they could still be after Ukraine war started.
 

TheInsider

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This is actually what I meant by "limited use". It can be used against other drones or perhaps helicopters but wouldn't do much good against any decent jet. Nonetheless it would be a great option to have for TB-2 or Anka.
It depends. Jet might not see the drone as a big threat and might want to utilize its autocannon. Greeks want to deploy trainer aircraft with propellers and jet engines to counter our drones. A TB2 armed with air-launched Sungur or a TB3 armed with Levent can be deadly against them.
 

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DRoket

Mortar round for drones.


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Kitra

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Maybe ok, maybe not..No idea.
i would prefer jet powered rapid interceptor UAV with AESA radar and with cheap missiles like SUNGUR. ( Kızılelma and ANKA 3 are best candidates) Could TB2 catch the targets from long distance, if AKINCI's AESA detected?

Currently ground VSHORAD network seems more effective.

But absolutely we should use SUNGURs for loetering ammunition/UAV hunt.
There will be jet powered drones as well.

However, a cheap drone with 24h endurance does not need to intercept anything since it will already be above the area of interest. Within 10 minutes, TB2 like drones would cover a radius of 40km. This is bigger than most cities.

Consider this combination of air-born radar with air-born missile trucks with short and long range AA missiles to be the next generation of SAM systems for area denial as well as offensive tasks.

The ultimate goal will be a long and deep wall of different types of drones. Here is how i envision it.
In the front, super small and slow drones for only intelligence gathering. They are cheap, stealthy, plentiful, disposable and mainly passive to make them hard to detect. The next line are stealthy bomb trucks (TB2/TB3/Anka/Akinci/Aksungur) with long+short range AA and guided bombs. The third line will be super cruising
air-superiority interceptors (Kizilelma/Kaan). The 4th line will be our Awacs (Akinci/Aksungur) while the 5th line will be tankers drones.
The 6th line will be satellites (think Starlink) in LEO for real time control of all these drones.

For the cost of a single S400, you could have 100 drones protecting our skies.

Considering Turkeys geography, there will also be traditional SAM systems but also sea based air defence systems placed on both surface and submarine drones. All of these are present or in development. The next 10-20 years will see tremendous changes in air defence and air-force strategies.
 

Anmdt

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İf you could detect them, your UAVs could engage on Shahids.

The problem with Shahids is detection. How could Flying TB 2 notice Shahids?

If thermal imaging could help, you would need hundreds of TB2 for patrolling.


Need solid radar cover.

Old tech Ground radars barely catch them.
Proper decentralized radar network, mobile low-altitude engagement units with proper sensors etc. would become much more feasible than flying set of drones with sensors-munitions. These drones would need to land at least once a day and maintained sometimes.

Deploy an hot air balloon instead. Much more logical if it is the goal to keep an eye from above and limit the chances of it being hit.
 

Sanchez

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Proper decentralized radar network, mobile low-altitude engagement units with proper sensors etc. would become much more feasible than flying set of drones with sensors-munitions. These drones would need to land at least once a day and maintained sometimes.

Deploy an hot air balloon instead. Much more logical if it is the goal to keep an eye from above and limit the chances of it being hit.
In that vein, I wish we could have some idea on what percentage of internal security UCAV sorties do the drones land with their munitions still on their pylons. Carrying live ammo is always a gamble.
 

UkroTurk

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Kızılelma would be hunter of cheap UAVs and loetering munitions, if KE had automatic cannon (30mm DEFA) however SUNGUR could be applied.

İmagine as if Kızılelma were intercepting TB2s. TB2 is relatively cheaper than KE, ANKA, Predator etc.

Which countries drones are competing cheaply priced and effective like the TB2?
 
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UkroTurk

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Guys do you think, we need unmanned jet powered light attack aircraft?

Kızılelma is born to be supersonic and stealthy multirole fighter.
KE empty weight should be 4500kg!!!

Sending KE over to the tanks would cost expensive!

Then we have TB2/TB3 but how fast could they fly? How many ATGM could they carry?
Could they rapidly strike enemy land forces?
ANKA could fly further and carry more missiles but still too low.

Related Another question why do we have manned Hürkuş?
( Hürkuş has 540km/h speed and 1500kg payload, ) very fast for its class but manned.)


So i would like to propose "unmanned light and rapid attack aircraft " platform.

İt's not as heavy, expensive and supersonic as Kızılelma!!
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Speed should be around 700km/h, empty weight around 1800kg, the light attack drone just carries UMTAS missiles.
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Really Light, empty weight 1800kg!!! And rapid!!! İt can climb the altitude over MANPADS.
Just make it unmanned, it would be new A-10 warthog.

İnterceptor of UAVs, Tank hunter, rapid air to ground attacker .... İt wouldn't cost more than gezgin/tomahawk missile.

Just imagine as if the Marchetti S211 were unmanned. TAI could make it.
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