TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Yasar_TR]

@Yasar will like it.

I love it. Both Akinci and Aksungur can carry multiple of these. In fact Akinci can fill all its 8 hard points with IHA122. Aksungur can do the same with 6 hard points.

I am still pining for the Turkish TRG300 missiles to be integrated in to our jets.

 

[YeşilVatan]

I love it. Both Akinci and Aksungur can carry multiple of these. In fact Akinci can fill all its 8 hard points with IHA122. Aksungur can do the same with 6 hard points.

I am still pining for the Turkish TRG300 missiles to be integrated in to our jets.

What would be your range estimation if TRG300 is launched from an Akıncı?

On a separate note, does land or air launch affect CEP values? I'd imagine not but you never know with these things.

 

[uçuyorum]

What would be your range estimation if TRG300 is launched from an Akıncı?

On a separate note, does land or air launch affect CEP values? I'd imagine not but you never know with these things.

Too heavy and big

 

[boredaf]

What would be your range estimation if TRG300 is launched from an Akıncı?

On a separate note, does land or air launch affect CEP values? I'd imagine not but you never know with these things.

Given that UAV-230 has more than twice the maximum range (70 vs 150) and UAV-122 having almost twice (30 vs 55) an UAV-300 would probably have at around 200 kms at least, my bet would be around 250. Checking right now TRG-300 Block III has 120 kms of maximum range, so, really long.

Too heavy and big

I don't know how long it is but Block III weighs 585 kgs according to Roketsan so it isn't any heavier than other ordinance our F-16s can carry.

 

[Yasar_TR]

What would be your range estimation if TRG300 is launched from an Akıncı?

On a separate note, does land or air launch affect CEP values? I'd imagine not but you never know with these things.

TRG300 equivalent is Israeli “Rampage” missile. Their F16s can carry 4 of these. Launched from air, the Israelis conservatively state that they at least double their land launched ranges.
I don’t think they would be very suitable for drones like Akinci. Although Akinci has capacity to carry at least 2 of them.
Russians claim tripling their land launched and air launched missiles’ ranges. (Iskander and Kinzhal) But like most things Russian it is something that needs to be proven to be believed.
A range of 250++ km should be the norm for the air launched trg300, most importantly at high altitude with supersonic speeds. Especially if you think that RAF is seriously considering replacing their ageing Storm Shadows with Rampage.

If you have a good enough seeker head , especially like a hybrid IIR seeker, it should even be able to precision hit moving targets.

A TRG300 class missile travels close to 4.5 Mach speed during mid course. It hits its target with a terminal speed in the region of 1.5 Mach. (Israeli sources give a terminal speed of 1.1 to 1.7 Mach. This makes it very hard for the enemy Air Defence Systems to intercept this missile. It has been successfully battle tested many times in Syria.

 

[uçuyorum]

Given that UAV-230 has more than twice the maximum range (70 vs 150) and UAV-122 having almost twice (30 vs 55) an UAV-300 would probably have at around 200 kms at least, my bet would be around 250. Checking right now TRG-300 Block III has 120 kms of maximum range, so, really long.


I don't know how long it is but Block III weighs 585 kgs according to Roketsan so it isn't any heavier than other ordinance our F-16s can carry.

Yeah but akıncı capacity is much smaller than F16. Such a heavy munition would go under the single hard point under the fuselage. It is 5.5 meters, it would cause issues there I think

 

[DBdev]

a terminal speed of 1.1 to 1.7 Mach. This makes it very hard for the enemy Air Defence Systems to intercept this missile. It has been successfully battle tested many times in Syria.

Air defense missiles are mach 4+. Any system having ANY difficulty detecting or stopping Mach 1 something rocket should be thrown to trash. Like most of the very old Russian systems in Syria.
PAC-1: Mach 2.8 PAC-2/PAC-3: Mach 4.1 (5000 km/h)

 

[Yasar_TR]

Air defense missiles are mach 4+. Any system having ANY difficulty detecting or stopping Mach 1 something rocket should be thrown to trash. Like most of the very old Russian systems in Syria.
PAC-1: Mach 2.8 PAC-2/PAC-3: Mach 4.1 (5000 km/h)

Air defence missiles’ flight speed is secondary when it comes to intercepting.

A 3 Mach AD missile can hit a hypersonic missile if it has a good seeker.

Rampage has a suppressed trajectory. It is a type of quasi ballistic missile. After launch it goes up to 40-50km altitude then goes down reaching 4-4.5 Mach mid course speeds. As it hits denser air around 15km altitude it starts losing speed. But as it is coming down to near perpendicular to target it is not easy to intercept.
No one is saying; impossible to intercept! Not easy to intercept for enemy AD systems!. Patriots even managed to intercept Hypersonic Kinzhal in Ukraine. Barak 8 intercepted Iskander hypersonic missile! Enemy being Russian AD systems. Please read carefully before replying!
With missiles that are cheap like these you wouldn’t be much worried about expending them in quantity either.

 

[DBdev]

I just don't want our people (especially Erdogan & co.) to acquire false bravado and belittle our foes when they did with Tayfun.

I am saying it is not only possible but also EASY to stop these for modern systems. Don't assume Greek air defenses (Russian and American made) would have any issues stopping these SUPPEERsonic missiles. Same goes for Tayfun. Stop acting like Tayfun is some Mach 20+ Satan II MIRV ICBM and not just another easy meat for modern Patriots. We will be lucky if 1 hits out of 10. American Patriots have been shutting down hundreds of ballistic missiles much faster than these. Including Kinzhal and once much feared Iskanders with their decoys and countermeasures etc. Patriots have %80-98% success rate depending on the missile. These air launched artillery rockets act a bit more like cruise missiles closer to target compared to ballistic missiles, just half a mach faster and a bit smaller RCS than cruise missiles THAT'S IT!

That's no problem whatsoever for modern systems. Well it might be a problem for Siper since our missiles apparently are much slower even compared to relatively slow Patriots. I have read Mach 2 or something can't really remember.

 

[boredaf]

I just don't want our people (especially Erdogan & co.) to acquire false bravado and belittle our foes when they did with Tayfun.

I am saying it is not only possible but also EASY to stop these for modern systems. Don't assume Greek air defenses (Russian and American made) would have any issues stopping these SUPPEERsonic missiles. Same goes for Tayfun. Stop acting like Tayfun is some Mach 20+ Satan II MIRV ICBM and not just another easy meat for modern Patriots. We will be lucky if 1 hits out of 10. American Patriots have been shutting down hundreds of ballistic missiles much faster than these. Including Kinzhal and once much feared Iskanders with their decoys and countermeasures etc. Patriots have %80-98% success rate depending on the missile. These air launched artillery rockets act a bit more like cruise missiles closer to target compared to ballistic missiles, just half a mach faster and a bit smaller RCS than cruise missiles THAT'S IT!

That's no problem whatsoever for modern systems. Well it might be a problem for Siper since our missiles apparently are much slower even compared to relatively slow Patriots. I have read Mach 2 or something can't really remember.

All of your posts comes down to "omg everything Greece has is better than what we have and it can "EASILY" beat what we have!!!1!!1

 

[Oublious]

System performance test.

 

[Quasar]

for TRG-300 in fact with a Warhead Effective Radius of 70 & 80 m it can easly be effective against it's Potential Target list, Further, logic dictates that TRG series in their current form is relativly cheap i.e they are guided rocket artillery

-Sure nothing is unstopable yet it is a numbers game sometimes ... saturation

-when you start having air launched guided rocket artillery it is the end of the story ... TRG-300 would be a very nice suprise but current air launched rocket artillery we have can even be more effective.

-we have almost endless solutions for PAC 2-3 to a extend that you have to open a PAC 2-3 missiles factories next to each patriot system. ( ok may be a bit of exaggeration but still not far from the truth)

counting on your Air defence systems is not a wise path to follow against Turkey

 

[Samba]

I just don't want our people (especially Erdogan & co.) to acquire false bravado and belittle our foes when they did with Tayfun.

I am saying it is not only possible but also EASY to stop these for modern systems. Don't assume Greek air defenses (Russian and American made) would have any issues stopping these SUPPEERsonic missiles. Same goes for Tayfun. Stop acting like Tayfun is some Mach 20+ Satan II MIRV ICBM and not just another easy meat for modern Patriots. We will be lucky if 1 hits out of 10. American Patriots have been shutting down hundreds of ballistic missiles much faster than these. Including Kinzhal and once much feared Iskanders with their decoys and countermeasures etc. Patriots have %80-98% success rate depending on the missile. These air launched artillery rockets act a bit more like cruise missiles closer to target compared to ballistic missiles, just half a mach faster and a bit smaller RCS than cruise missiles THAT'S IT!

That's no problem whatsoever for modern systems. Well it might be a problem for Siper since our missiles apparently are much slower even compared to relatively slow Patriots. I have read Mach 2 or something can't really remember.

There are simulations where thousands of shahed drones fired against a patriot site which is protected by Rams.

Eventually Patriot side is demolished. The cost of shaheds are nothing compared to patriots lost.

 

[Rooxbar]

There are simulations where thousands of shahed drones fired against a patriot site which is protected by Rams.

Eventually Patriot side is demolished. The cost of shaheds are nothing compared to patriots lost.

You throw thousands of shahed drones at one site, you're out of drones now. To replenish you'll need months.

 

[YeşilVatan]

You throw thousands of shahed drones at one site, you're out of drones now. To replenish you'll need months.

Makes you think if even cheaper decoy drones are worth it...

 

[UkroTurk]

As it hits denser air around 15km altitude it starts losing speed. But as it is coming down to near perpendicular to target it is not easy to intercept.

Then we need to convert some SAM , air to surface missiles as they are easy to be controlled at high speed.

At least supersonic anti-radiation or antiship missiles.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Then we need to convert some SAM , air to surface missiles as they are easy to be controlled at high speed.

At least supersonic anti-radiation or antiship missiles.

The missiles like TRG-300 are quasi ballistic missiles. Their main job is to carry a heavy destructive explosive to the target area.
When they are launched, with their rocket motors, they reach very high supersonic speeds. By this time they will have reached a rarified level of atmosphere where there is hardly any air drag. They then start to slow down when their fuel is exhausted. Then they start to freefall towards their target under a ballistic trajectory. This is when their speed goes up again. Then they hit denser air layers and start losing speed. (Their speed is governed by the terminal velocity formula.) the heavier and more aerodynamic they are the faster they hit earth. Whereas a 600kg trg300 may have a terminal speed of say 1.2mach a 105 ton ICBM may have a terminal speed of 10 Mach.

An a2a missile and an air defence SAM are very different. Their main job is to disable, by hit-to-kill or by exploding nearby, another missile or plane.

Air to air missiles, with the exception of ramjet powered ones do not have power during their terminal phase. An amraam flying at 4 Mach may only have 2.5 Mach when it reaches it’s target; especially if it has done one too many manoeuvres. (more manoeuvres they perform at terminal stage the more they lose speed)
(This is where ramjet engined meteor a2a missile excels, as it has power available at terminal phase. It can throttle down and up to economise the fuel it burns.)

A SAM air defence missile too is very similar in its operation. Depending on the engagement range it may have no power at terminal interception phase.
A dual pulse hisar-rf hitting a target 40 km away, with the first half of its fuel will reach a 3-3.5 Mach speed. Then coast towards the target whilst losing speed. As it engages the target the second part of the fuel is burnt to give more speed to catch the target and compensate for any loss of speed due to manoeuvres. But even with the second pulse, the Hisar-rf may not have power at the point of impact.

 

[Samba]

You throw thousands of shahed drones at one site, you're out of drones now. To replenish you'll need months.

You speak like you can replace patriots in a week's time.

You produce these drones during peace time. They are cheap and easy to produce. When needed you use them in batches. Once strategic ADSs are down, your enemy has a big hole in it's air defence system.

 

[Afif]

People makes it sound so easy. Real world operational environment is much more different. Russia had hundreds of Shahed when first Patriot battery became operational in Ukraine. Yet they couldn’t knock it out.

 

[Strong AI]

You speak like you can replace patriots in a week's time.

You produce these drones during peace time. They are cheap and easy to produce. When needed you use them in batches. Once strategic ADSs are down, your enemy has a big hole in it's air defence system.

EW, Laser and SHORAD enter the chat.
There is a reason why those drones are cheap. They often only use GPS or GLONASS and are slow.
And there are radars whose purpose is to detect small and slow targets.
And good luck firing "thousands" of drones without getting noticed.

Or am i missing here something?