TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

Yasar_TR

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Aselsan General Manager Ahmet Akyol "With the integration of MURAD AESA radar, Akıncı now has the ability to shoot AAM missiles like Gökdoğan and Bozdoğan."
Finally a piece of good news on Murad! but….

Can somebody explain why on earth you would want a top of the range GaN based expensive Aesa radar on a slow relatively cheap and presumably expendable drone?

I wouldn‘t be surprised if Murad costs more than a third of the value of the Akinci that is carrying it.
GaAs based An/Apg-82 on the new F15-EX costs more than 5.5 million dollars a piece. The hybrid GaN/GaAs based ECRS-Mk2 radar being fitted to all 107 UK Tranche 2 and 3 Typhoons costing 870 million pounds; albeit with upgraded ancillary electronics kits.

The Gokdogan and Bozdogan missiles aren’t cheap either. Also why would you need a WVR a2a missile on a slow drone? If you want to hit other drones, surely, it would be more economical to use Sungur.

It would have made more sense if the Aselsan official had said that;
“The Murad was integrated on to Akinci to test it before fitting it on the F16 Ozgur jets. With this radar the Akinci Drone too, can now launch a series of BVR Stand-off missiles including Gokdogan , SOM-J , KGK. We will be able to use Akinci to direct other drones and target enemy positions and valuable assets by relaying the necessary data to those drones in the field.“

That is where Akinci will be most effective if it has an Aesa radar. To be able to hit moving sea targets with SOM-J from a stand-off distance of 250+ km. It will perform precision strikes on Land targets from a distance of 110km with KGK smart bombs. It can fire BVR Gokdogan to eliminate air targets 100+ km away. And most importantly, it can give very valuable data about battlefield to the control centre.

It is still arguable, if the use of an Aesa radar on a drone like Akinci being an overkill or not . Yet there is an advantage to be had. But with such valuable equipment and ammo on board, it has to stay away from enemy line of fire. I am sure the Turkish armed forces know what they are doing!
We mustn’t, however as the proverb go, behave like “an ignorant man who can’t appreciate good fortune”. (Görmemişin oğlu olmuş, tutmuş…..)
 
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Merzifonlu

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Akıncı doesn't have anough power to use that AESA In it full capability,
For combat, yes you are right. For test, thats questionable.

IMO, While Akıncı is flying for testing purposes, the energy gap of the radar can be covered with auxiliary power units mounted on the bomb launchers. Especially the single bomb launcher under the fuselage is very suitable for this job, i think.
 

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I don't know the power output of akıncı but PD170 is 4.5×2 kW. Aksungur therefore has 18kW. I couldn't find info about PT-6 but what are the chances it's less than a PD170? I remember that for F16 A/B that for F16 A/B that's 30-40 kVA and for C/D it's 50/60kVA. So if 2 PT-6 can produce anywhere close it could use MURAD effectively, if at the cost of other systems.
 

I_Love_F16

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Can somebody explain why on earth you would want a top of the range GaN based expensive Aesa radar on a slow relatively cheap and presumably expendable drone?

Exactly my question. @Huelague MURAD would be too valuable in my opinion to be equiped on a drone like the Akinci. Also the top speed of the drone would considerably reduce the range of BVR missiles, as you probably know.
 

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Finally a piece of good news on Murad! but….

Can somebody explain why on earth you would want a top of the range GaN based expensive Aesa radar on a slow relatively cheap and presumably expendable drone?

I wouldn‘t be surprised if Murad costs more than a third of the value of the Akinci that is carrying it.
GaAs based An/Apg-82 on the new F15-EX costs more than 5.5 million dollars a piece. The hybrid GaN/GaAs based ECRS-Mk2 radar being fitted to all 107 UK Tranche 2 and 3 Typhoons costing 870 million pounds; albeit with upgraded ancillary electronics kits.

The Gokdogan and Bozdogan missiles aren’t cheap either. Also why would you need a WVR a2a missile on a slow drone? If you want to hit other drones, surely, it would be more economical to use Sungur.

It would have made more sense if the Aselsan official had said that;
“The Murad was integrated on to Akinci to test it before fitting it on the F16 Ozgur jets. With this radar the Akinci Drone too, can now launch a series of BVR Stand-off missiles including Gokdogan , SOM-J , KGK. We will be able to use Akinci to direct other drones and target enemy positions and valuable assets by relaying the necessary data to those drones in the field.“

That is where Akinci will be most effective if it has an Aesa radar. To be able to hit moving sea targets with SOM-J from a stand-off distance of 250+ km. It will perform precision strikes on Land targets from a distance of 130km with KGK smart bombs. It can fire BVR Gokdogan to eliminate air targets 100+ km away. And most importantly, it can give very valuable data about battlefield to the control centre.

It is still arguable, if the use of an Aesa radar on a drone like Akinci being an overkill or not . Yet there is an advantage to be had. But with such valuable equipment and ammo on board, it has to stay away from enemy line of fire. I am sure the Turkish armed forces know what they are doing!
We mustn’t, however as the proverb go, behave like “an ignorant man who can’t appreciate good fortune”. (Görmemişin oğlu olmuş, tutmuş…..)

Fully understand the idea you are sharing! I would love to see a "faster" Kizilelma with a cruising speed of over 0.7 Mach, and a top speed between 1.2-1.6 Mach. Fitted with the Murad AESA radar, and all the missiles you mentioned. Hopefully, we will get some more surprises from TAI in the coming years aswell😁
 

UkroTurk

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Guys C'mon Aksungur with AESA like compact AWACS however huge AWACS is vulnerable thanks to large RCS.

Please remember the topography of Türkish land. There are a lot of mountains, you can't put land based AD system in every corner.
images.jpeg

images (1).jpeg

Having BVR A2A missiles, Aksungur will have self defense capability in case of Infiltration.

What would you do if enemy fighters infiltrate at low altitude between through mountains.

Several AKSUNGURs over the mountains could detect even intercept fighters.

AKSUNGUR will also hide itself behind the topography so enemy will face a sudden surprise.

İt's kinda loetering short range Air defense system.

Remember ground based AD systems also emit radar signal while they aren't moving. They are the first target of Anti-radiation missiles from fighters.

At least Aksungur is mobile.

They have some tactical advantages, they will close some gaps. That's all. Noone expect from Aksungurs too much.

Maximum 20 Aksungurs with AESA radar and missiles wouldn't be burden.

Dağ bitane değilki tepesine koy oradan seyret geleni geçeni.
Her taraf dağlık ve kanyonlarla dolu.

SEAD operasyonuyla bir bölgedeki hava savunma sistemleri susturulursa, bunlar hızlıca gelip geçici bir süre bu boşluğu da kapatabilirler, oraya yeni yer hava savunma intikal edince sonra başka yere kaydırılırlar. Ülke üzerindeki havasaha korunması için Taktik bir araç.
 
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Merzifonlu

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I have a radar project, the details of which I will not share here. I am thinking of retiring in August 2024 (in an EYT style). I can deal with that project at Teknokent. I think that with a software update and some minor hardware changes, I can bring the underpowered radars deployed on drones to approximately the level of standard AWACS radars.

Since I am a mathematician, I am thinking of addressing the problem with signal processing techniques. You may ask "What you will find that hasn't been found yet in that area?", but the signal characteristics of the radars change a lot with some hardware add-ons. I think I found an uncharted path there.
 

Huelague

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Exactly my question. @Huelague MURAD would be too valuable in my opinion to be equiped on a drone like the Akinci. Also the top speed of the drone would considerably reduce the range of BVR missiles, as you probably know.
As @Yasar said, just as a testbed. Has MURAD passive or jamming/EW radar capabilities?
 

Kartal1

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I have a radar project, the details of which I will not share here. I am thinking of retiring in August 2024 (in an EYT style). I can deal with that project at Teknokent. I think that with a software update and some minor hardware changes, I can bring the underpowered radars deployed on drones to approximately the level of standard AWACS radars.

Since I am a mathematician, I am thinking of addressing the problem with signal processing techniques. You may ask "What you will find that hasn't been found yet in that area?", but the signal characteristics of the radars change a lot with some hardware add-ons. I think I found an uncharted path there.
Best of luck, brother! I hope you achieve your objectives and the results are within your expectations.
 

Zafer

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I have a radar project, the details of which I will not share here. I am thinking of retiring in August 2024 (in an EYT style). I can deal with that project at Teknokent. I think that with a software update and some minor hardware changes, I can bring the underpowered radars deployed on drones to approximately the level of standard AWACS radars.

Since I am a mathematician, I am thinking of addressing the problem with signal processing techniques. You may ask "What you will find that hasn't been found yet in that area?", but the signal characteristics of the radars change a lot with some hardware add-ons. I think I found an uncharted path there.
Start a startup on fonbulucu, get some funds, if you have an innovative tech you and I will be printing money.

EDIT: It is not only fighter jets that need a radar, all kind of aircraft can make use of it, including flying cars.
 
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Maximilien Robespierre

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Nd when we shot down, they will lose a pilot.

Btw, AESA is a few days of work to produce a new one. Losing a drone is not the end of the world.
Real battles are not like games there is no way akıncı can score a kill against fighter, It needs a small cheap AESA radar, also you can't spam oıt radrs this isdnt like red alert

people here really can't take criticism yeah lets put a radar that is 10x more expensive than the UAV Itself
 

Maximilien Robespierre

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Guys C'mon Aksungur with AESA like compact AWACS however huge AWACS is vulnerable thanks to large RCS.

Please remember the topography of Türkish land. There are a lot of mountains, you can't put land based AD system in every corner.
View attachment 64183
View attachment 64184
Having BVR A2A missiles, Aksungur will have self defense capability in case of Infiltration.

What would you do if enemy fighters infiltrate at low altitude between through mountains.

Several AKSUNGURs over the mountains could detect even intercept fighters.

AKSUNGUR will also hide itself behind the topography so enemy will face a sudden surprise.

İt's kinda loetering short range Air defense system.

Remember ground based AD systems also emit radar signal while they aren't moving. They are the first target of Anti-radiation missiles from fighters.

At least Aksungur is mobile.

They have some tactical advantages, they will close some gaps. That's all. Noone expect from Aksungurs too much.

Maximum 20 Aksungurs with AESA radar and missiles wouldn't be burden.

Dağ bitane değilki tepesine koy oradan seyret geleni geçeni.
Her taraf dağlık ve kanyonlarla dolu.

SEAD operasyonuyla bir bölgedeki hava savunma sistemleri susturulursa, bunlar hızlıca gelip geçici bir süre bu boşluğu da kapatabilirler, oraya yeni yer hava savunma intikal edince sonra başka yere kaydırılırlar. Ülke üzerindeki havasaha korunması için Taktik bir araç.
Of course, the red circle experts and Twitter masters who put the S-400 in Izmir and Erzurum and controlled all the airspace in the region from Athens to Damascus by drawing a circle with a radius of 600 kilometers to every point on the map know better, but S-400 is Its radar and missile range is not 600 kilometers.
Radars are not systems that work stand-alone and are not affected by geographical patterns. There is such a thing as the radar horizon, since the earth is a sphere, you cannot see beyond a certain distance, the last mast of the ship that moves away disappears, etc... Hah, this is the real radar coverage area of the S-400. That's not even all, if the enemy carrying out the air attack is not retarded, they will also send planes carrying ECM (electronic jamming) pods along with the attack package. When electronic jamming is involved, even the 40N6E (the S-400's longest-range missile), which is said to have a range of 380 km, can probably only be engaged from a distance of 150 kilometers.
1703374087728.png
 

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W.r.t drones with A2A missiles, NASAMs was very effective in ukraine and if we find Gökdemir compelling, I don't see why we can't have a drone that's effectively flying version of an air defence system.
 

TheInsider

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Akıncı which carries the Murad radar is modified. It has an APU on board to keep the radar fed and a cooling system(heat exchangers) to discharge waste heat from the radar. So why do we integrate Murat into Akıncı? Endurance is the magic word here Akıncı has 24-hour endurance. Akıncı can be used to aid air defense batteries. Akıncı can pass target coordinates to other UAVs as a surveillance asset. Murad also has jamming capability so it can be used as a SEAD asset especially with cruise missiles and air launched artillery rockets.
 

Maximilien Robespierre

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Akıncı which carries the Murad radar is modified. It has an APU on board to keep the radar fed and a cooling system(heat exchangers) to discharge waste heat from the radar. So why do we integrate Murat into Akıncı? Endurance is the magic word here Akıncı has 24-hour endurance. Akıncı can be used to aid air defense batteries. Akıncı can pass target coordinates to other UAVs as a surveillance asset. Murad also has jamming capability so it can be used as a SEAD asset especially with cruise missiles and air launched artillery rockets.
Still is a slow easy target, maybe we should have paid the money to Integrate MURAD Into F16? Every year Its getting delayed
 

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