TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Yasar_TR]

Let's not forget TRLG-122 as well, being smaller makes it lighter, but being able to launch them while airborne will save precious fuel that's consumed during launches.

TRLG (or TRG)-122 having a L2A range of 40 km could double that easily. Maybe even reach 120 km range with few modifications.

TRLG (or TRG)-230 has a bigger warhead so I understand the advantages of being able to launch it while airborne, but it doesn't have same crucial tech as SOM, so wouldn't that be a waste ?

SOM missile is a million dollar missile. Trg300 is a fraction of the cost of SOM. trg230 is even cheaper. Why do you think Israeli’s are using it?!! (We may not like to produce trg series air launched version as there may not be enough cream to skim off of it)
The so called “ crucial tech“ is it’s stealth geometry and the special paint; plus the seeker head to have the topography picture of the terrain etc. This is to make it invisible to enemy defences as it hugs the terrain it is travelling at. SOM is a “Cruise Missile”. Trg300 air launched is a supersonic land attack rocket.
They both serve the same final outcome! Successful Destruction of target.
With the Aksungur and Akinci coming in to play, these rockets may be the right way to go forward in making them more lethal.

 

[Saithan]

SOM missile is a million dollar missile. Trg300 is a fraction of the cost of SOM. trg230 is even cheaper. Why do you think Israeli’s are using it?!! (We may not like to produce trg series air launched version as there may not be enough cream to skim off of it)
The so called “ crucial tech“ is it’s stealth geometry and the special paint; plus the seeker head to have the topography picture of the terrain etc. This is to make it invisible to enemy defences as it hugs the terrain it is travelling at. SOM is a “Cruise Missile”. Trg300 air launched is a supersonic land attack rocket.
They both serve the same final outcome! Successful Destruction of target.
With the Aksungur and Akinci coming in to play, these rockets may be the right way to go forward in making them more lethal.

True, if the enemy's AD has been taken out or reduced then I can understand using TRG. But why TRG and not the laserguided variant TRLG ?

Does the cost deviate that much ?

Precision is still very important.

 

[Yasar_TR]

True, if the enemy's AD has been taken out or reduced then I can understand using TRG. But why TRG and not the laserguided variant TRLG ?

Does the cost deviate that much ?

Precision is still very important.

Yes there will be a cost involved for laser guidance. But I don’ think it should break the bank. But doesn’t TRLG need a secondary laser pointer from air or ground? Main idea of trg300 is to be a “stand-off” ammunition that can be used from 250-300 km away without putting any friendly platform in harm’s way. I am sure with extra cost IIR guidance can be fitted as well.
Rampage missile’s guidance and navigation system are a mix of an inertial measurement unit (IMU) with micro-electromechanical Systems (MEMS) technology combined with IAI’s ADA GPS/GNSS anti-jam system. And it works.
The idea is to hit from a stand off distance valuable targets with precision guidance in numbers an cheaply. The operative word here being “cheaply”

 

[Yasar_TR]

True, if the enemy's AD has been taken out or reduced then I can understand using TRG. But why TRG and not the laserguided variant TRLG ?

Does the cost deviate that much ?

Precision is still very important.

Israel’s experience against Syrian/Russian AD systems has been such that the rampage is registered on their radars. But it is fast ; so they don’t have time to react. At around 15k altitude remember , this missile is travelling at 4.2 Mach. Only when it is going through denser air layers does it’s speed reduce. It hits the target at around1.5 Mach.

 

[Saithan]

Turkish defense firm MilSOFT develops AI for drone swarms

Turkish defense industry company MilSOFT, which offers software-based solutions for security forces, has developed software for the use of unmanned aerial...

www.dailysabah.com

 

[Turko]

GPS guidance gives TRG family missiles 10-meter accuracy. So in order to hit-to-kill capacity, they need just a device which accurately guide them 10 meter further.
Guys a mini active radar seeker for 10 meters distance wouldnt be cost 10k usd.
Today's cheap Chinese automobiles have those parking sensors.
TRG-300 with tiny active old gen radar seeker would hit ships insanely and cheaply.

 

[Nutuk]

I want to discuss a little bit about the success of drones like TB2 and Israeli Harop.
As lately Azerbaijan used these drone very successfully against Russian type airdefense systems like OSA, TOR-M2 and even S-300.

The biggest enabler of these drones were their "stealth" low radar cross section (RCS), Russian radars on these AD systems simple failed to see / trace these stealth objects until it was too late.

The site global security has a nice table of aircraft and their RCS values:

They took the RCS of an automobile as reference and took that as a value 100
An F35 with RCS 0.005 would have the size of a fly compared to an automobile and an F22 about the size of an ant.

So the question is what was the size of the TB2 drone that the Russian radars were unable to see?
In an article about Turkish drones mr. Ibrahim Sünetçi (I quote him a lot lately as I like his serious work and research he does) estimates that the RCS of TB2 is 1m2 or maybe smaller like 0.5m2.

I personally think the RCS must be even less because the Russian radars can detect the modern fighter jets that have RCS of 0.5 - 1.

IMO the RCS of the TB2 must be more like around 0.1, at a critical point that AD system radars (mostly S-band or C-band) have difficulties to detect.


One more thing that the TB2 drone has showed us, is how important "stealth" is. It is a game changer let us realize that very well!

 

[Bayraktar TB2]

Britain doesn't have an advanced UAV ? Come on ...

Its how you use it that matters..(CONOPS)

What kind of "serious work" can a non-professional person do on weighing up the RCS value of an aircraft? I think it is too early to come to such a

LNA shot down more than 10 in Libya. Then something changed and Pantsirs got eliminated left and right earning bayraktars the name "Pantsir killer" .. Its a combination of field intelligence, EW and of course experienced drone operators.

 

[Nutuk]

EW is a good theorie but unlikely IMO, reason is that Pantsirs in Libya were destroyed at distances that are unlikely for Turkish EW to have any effect. Secondly most TB2 downing's occurred in Tripolis when the drone was ascending or descending for take off and landing coming into the range of MANPADS.

I agree with you that RCS tests in anechoic chambers at scientific level is the way, and I'm sure those must have been made (only not published for certain reasons).

And than we have the knowledge that Bayraktar company itself mentioned in a few occasions that the drone was stealthy with her composite body. So a stealth value is so far the best explanation why the drone has been so successful. Not only TB2 but also the Israeli Harop using same type construction materials were extreme successful in taking out AD systems (maybe even more successful than TB2)

All AD system kills recorded with also having their radars active point more to stealth and failure to detect.

 

[Binh Nguyen]

Pantsir was designed with supersonic targets such as AGM-88 HARM in mind. Therefore, for very-slow and low RCS targets like TB2, Pantsir system will consider it like a bird and pass by.

 

[Bayraktar TB2]

How can exposed engine propeller and weapon stations be stealthy is beyond me..

 

[Agha Sher]

How can exposed engine propeller and weapon stations be stealthy is beyond me..

Brother, these guys are still trying to find lame excuses

 

[Bayraktar TB2]

If you don't believe me.. Believe in erdogan

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326950767392157698

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1326950782852362253

 

[Zafer]

Pantsir was designed with supersonic targets such as AGM-88 HARM in mind. Therefore, for very-slow and low RCS targets like TB2, Pantsir system will consider them a bird and pass by.

Panstir is so stupid.

 

[Turko]

Yes some ex officers said EW helped to jam SAMs however composite material of Bayraktar also reduces it's RCS.

 

[Saithan]

Pantsir was designed with supersonic targets such as AGM-88 HARM in mind. Therefore, for very-slow and low RCS targets like TB2, Pantsir system will consider it like a bird and pass by.

I think this is also relevant.

I mean you'd have to define what objectives you want to see on your radar, and filter everything else out as noise. If something is flying at a certain speed and you pick it up by radar, you'll know it's an object, but not it's specifications.

So the target of UAV or loitering ammo must be to have it weigh and be as little/small as possible with as much payload as possible.

 

[Zafer]

There may be something to do with heat signature too.

 

[Nutuk]

I think this is also relevant.

I mean you'd have to define what objectives you want to see on your radar, and filter everything else out as noise. If something is flying at a certain speed and you pick it up by radar, you'll know it's an object, but not it's specifications.

So the target of UAV or loitering ammo must be to have it weigh and be as little/small as possible with as much payload as possible.

Not really, F35 is much bigger and heavier. Yet is has a much smaller RCS

 

[Yasar_TR]

Not really, F35 is much bigger and heavier. Yet is has a much smaller RCS

Geometry of the wings and the plane in general and the material of the macro structure play a big role in how much of the radar signals are deflected, how much are bypassed and how much are absorbed. That is why BAE System engineers are employed at Tusas. This know how is important.
The size of the B2 bomber is huge. But it’s rcs value is as good as f22; 0.0001 m2. The new B21 similar in size to B2 is going to be virtually invisible!

 

[Yasar_TR]

If we could use all the know how we have gathered in building the f35 and SOM together with the knowledge we have accumulated in the development of TFX and pass it on to the new stealth jet UAV we are planning to build we could come up with a truly stealthy craft.
All the EW experience we have plus a plane such as this jet UAV should become another drone success story for us.