Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

Ryder

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It isn't a joke actually - but true brutal reality - (the actual loss figures I will leave up to you) but somehow you forgot Ukrainian military losses and especially civilians and the systematic destruction of a countries infrastructure.
Plus the economic losses (creating a large inflation) of NATO countries and most others on this planet.

And all thanks to a dysfunctional NATO and a comedian in Ukraine having been totally unprepared for an attack by Putin that was absolutely predictable since his speech at the German parliament in 2001, again in 2014 and again since October 2021 - you getting my drift on this subject?

BTW-just yesterday I came across an article that stated (one of the Baltic Republics) is presently discussing the possibility of introducing national draft from next year on - now that would be a joke for me indeed.

If an upcoming war happens between NATO and Russia the Russians will get their asses stomped period.

Ukrainian debacle is destroyed their image of a superpower who was equal or on par with Nato. Russia has the mentality of fighting a total war with a cold war mindset.

Modern warfare is all about quick swift victories while losing little while using every asset you have.

Russians are using T62s which seems to me they lost so many tanks they are now resorting to old ones in storage.

Lets not forget how the Russians sent the vdvs to their deaths while even planning on doing a amphibious landing into odessa. Do they even use their assets in a proper combined arms approach?

Russians have constantly got L upon L.
 
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Jagdflieger

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If an upcoming war happens between NATO and Russia the Russians will get their asses stomped period.
Not so sure about that - NATO today isn't comparable with NATO of the 80's
Ukrainian debacle is destroyed their image of a superpower who was equal or on par with Nato. Russia has the mentality of fighting a total war with a cold war mindset.
The Sovietunion had already lost it's edge over NATO from the late 60's onward. After that nukes made sure that even a conventional war won't happen.
Modern warfare is all about quick swift victories while losing little while using every asset you have.
Agree, but Russia doesn't have these "assets" in regards to a huge country such as Ukraine without full mobilization and taking action by NATO into account, and you would be mistaken to believe that Putin wouldn't know about that, even before he attacked Ukraine.
Russians are using T62s which seems to me they lost so many tanks they are now resorting to old ones in storage.
They had already used these in large numbers to supply the DNLR forces - so nothing new really - independent of losses they sustained so far. According to some Western think tanks, Ukraine has meanwhile lost 50-60% of it's own MBT force.
Lets not forget how the Russians sent the vdvs to their deaths while even planning on doing a amphibious landing into odessa. They even used their assets in a proper combined arms approach.
Planing an amphibious operation towards Odessa and actually executing one are two different issues. Even with the Moskva around I don't see that the Russians ever had such a capability.
 
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Mailman

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It isn't a joke actually - but true brutal reality - (the actual loss figures I will leave up to you) but somehow you forgot Ukrainian military losses and especially civilians and the systematic destruction of a countries infrastructure.
Plus the economic losses (creating a large inflation) of NATO countries and most others on this planet.

And all thanks to a dysfunctional NATO and a comedian in Ukraine having been totally unprepared for an attack by Putin that was absolutely predictable since his speech at the German parliament in 2001, again in 2014 and again since October 2021 - you getting my drift on this subject?

BTW-just yesterday I came across an article that stated (one of the Baltic Republics) is presently discussing the possibility of introducing national draft from next year on - now that would be a joke for me indeed.
Harsh, but true words. I hate to agree, but I must. This is Latvia, which decided to switch to a professional army, now renewing conscript logic. Actually, Estonia was not so far from it either. Being so close to the frontline, 2% of GDP spared for military expenditure is definitely not enough.

NATO lost its edge after USSR's collapse, that is for sure. After it the future was bright, and the capitalist system won over the socialist one, with no foreseeable conflicts on the sight. All the resources, earlier focused on the military, were directed to the areas which were underfinanced during the cold war. So everybody lived a little and refused to acknowledge any threat.

Do I believe that Putin can turn the wheel of time backward- definitely not. Because of blinded higher management, Russia has chosen the worst enemy to start to change the world order. U. is big enough, can put up to 4 million men to fight, and they are motivated to fight. Ukrainians were considered the best fighters in Red Army during WWII and know exactly what kind of future will wait for them under the Russian empire. I feel very sorry for Ukrainians because we have been in their situation. What can one do...

Believe me, there are worst things than death on the battlefield- witnessing your wife or your 12 years old daughter raped by a row of combatants and not being able to do anything about it. Red Army had such a lovely approach to the conquered nations and they preserved these traditions well. Catherine Merridale has written a good book about it under the name "Ivan's War: Life and Death in the Red Army, 1939-1945"

I would still not buy this NATO attacking myth Russia has played out for the internal public. Putin has been playing a long game and perhaps NATO is among its objectives, but why kill his own family members because of that? Beat own people to frighten enemy? Otto von Bismarck has a good saying: "Never fight with Russian. On your every strategy, they answer unpredictable stupidity."
 

Jagdflieger

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Believe me, there are worst things than death on the battlefield- witnessing your wife or your 12 years old daughter raped by a row of combatants and not being able to do anything about it. Red Army had such a lovely approach to the conquered nations and they preserved these traditions well. Catherine Merridale has written a good book about it under the name "Ivan's War: Life and Death in the Red Army, 1939-1945"
I have seen lot's of these inhuman acts in Africa. BTW the Wehrmacht and especially it's recruited "assistants" from former Soviet occupied territories didn't have a much better reputation - it's just that nothing much has been written in that regard.
This does not excuse such crimes presently committed by Russian troops at all - but if one knows Russia and it's "mentality/culture" and those of many other countries it unfortunately doesn't come as a surprise.
I would still not buy this NATO attacking myth Russia has played out for the internal public. Putin has been playing a long game and perhaps NATO is among its objectives, but why kill his own family members because of that? Beat own people to frighten enemy? Otto von Bismarck has a good saying: "Never fight with Russian. On your every strategy, they answer unpredictable stupidity."
It depends on several "coinciding" issues - e.g. a possible reunification with Belarus. Putin is a very smart fellow - and he knows the western political and populations mindset exceedingly well. For my part I would not be surprised if he would opt to attack the Baltic States. Catching two flies at the same time - gaining back the Baltic Republics and calling out NATO's "supposed resolve". Answer for yourself; Do you believe that a majority in e.g. Germany, France and Italy would be willing to die for the Baltic Republics and therefore additionally risk a "limited Nuclear response" by Russia? And Putin is resolute enough to do just that.

NATO totally screwed up in regards to Putin since 2001, and never prepared as to how to counter him. With his attack onto Crimea and 7 years later onto Ukraine he caught them totally off guard. Since NATO (besides maybe Turkey) is run by democratic countries, there is no such thing as getting the respective population and their political parties to be wiling and even able to go into a war. That is what one supposedly has an army for - ready and able to go to war at any given time, with or without the populations consent.
NATO is fully aware of that issue (a huge problem) and that is why they prefer negotiations with Putin - that only then will allow them to take these necessary steps.

Look at Germany, just 7 weeks ago our useless Defense minister loudmouthed "we will send heavy weapons and tanks to Ukraine". And today: we can't send 200 Fuchs (just some outdated APC's) to Ukraine because no one can expect or demand from us to strip our-self from our equipment that is needed to defend Germany against a possible Russian aggression......- that equals a deceleration of bankruptcy towards the German government and the Bundeswehr.

If these circumstances do not change rapidly (actually a miracle is needed) there is no way IMO that Ukraine can win against Russia, and the longer this ridiculous war takes, the more territory Putin will gain. And the more territory he gains the less likely it will become that Putin will stop before having occupied all of Ukraine.

As for Bismarck - you do know that his preferred ally was Russia? - it's was just silly Willy who thought that Austria would be a better choice. And Imperial Russia was able to create the largest empire and country on this planet - from the 16th century till 1914. So they can't have been that stupid or ineffective at all.

Sorry - somtimes I just can't controll my frustration in regards to NATO or Germany's political institutions.
 

Soldier30

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Ex-president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko continues to purchase military equipment for Ukraine. This time, Italian MLS SHIELD armored vehicles were purchased with volunteer funds, according to Poroshenko, the equipment was purchased for the counteroffensive of the Ukrainian army. Unexpectedly for everyone, the Ukrainian site "Peacemaker", which publishes information about the enemies of Ukraine, accused Petro Poroshenko of corruption. Information was posted on the website that allegedly Poroshenko, under the guise of raising funds and purchasing MLS SHIELD armored vehicles, took 40 million hryvnia abroad and allowed the funds to be misused. MLS SHIELD is a 4×4 armored SUV manufactured by TEKNE. The manufacturer guarantees the safety of 10 crew members in the event of a car being blown up by mines and improvised explosive devices, as well as in case of an ambush attack. It is possible to install a warhead in the armored vehicle, in which a machine gun of up to 12.7 mm caliber or an automatic grenade launcher can be installed. According to Petro Poroshenko, he buys armored vehicles in the maximum configuration.


Russian artillery destroyed the Czechoslovak 152-mm self-propelled guns vz.77 "Dana-M2" in the Seversk region with an accurate blow. ACS "Dana-M2" is a modernized version of the self-propelled gun vz.77 "Dana" developed in 1977. Earlier, the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine purchased supported self-propelled guns in the Czech Republic, which caused a scandal. In the Czech Republic itself, the Dana self-propelled guns were decommissioned in 2018 and replaced by CAESAR 155-mm self-propelled guns. The Czech Republic refused to modernize the Dana self-propelled guns due to the impossibility of integrating this installation into a single NATO digital data transmission and target designation system.

 

Mailman

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I have seen lot's of these inhuman acts in Africa. BTW the Wehrmacht and especially it's recruited "assistants" from former Soviet occupied territories didn't have a much better reputation - it's just that nothing much has been written in that regard.
This does not excuse such crimes presently committed by Russian troops at all - but if one knows Russia and it's "mentality/culture" and those of many other countries it unfortunately doesn't come as a surprise.

It depends on several "coinciding" issues - e.g. a possible reunification with Belarus. Putin is a very smart fellow - and he knows the western political and populations mindset exceedingly well. For my part I would not be surprised if he would opt to attack the Baltic States. Catching two flies at the same time - gaining back the Baltic Republics and calling out NATO's "supposed resolve". Answer for yourself; Do you believe that a majority in e.g. Germany, France and Italy would be willing to die for the Baltic Republics and therefore additionally risk a "limited Nuclear response" by Russia? And Putin is resolute enough to do just that.

NATO totally screwed up in regards to Putin since 2001, and never prepared as to how to counter him. With his attack onto Crimea and 7 years later onto Ukraine he caught them totally off guard. Since NATO (besides maybe Turkey) is run by democratic countries, there is no such thing as getting the respective population and their political parties to be wiling and even able to go into a war. That is what one supposedly has an army for - ready and able to go to war at any given time, with or without the populations consent.
NATO is fully aware of that issue (a huge problem) and that is why they prefer negotiations with Putin - that only then will allow them to take these necessary steps.

Look at Germany, just 7 weeks ago our useless Defense minister loudmouthed "we will send heavy weapons and tanks to Ukraine". And today: we can't send 200 Fuchs (just some outdated APC's) to Ukraine because no one can expect or demand from us to strip our-self from our equipment that is needed to defend Germany against a possible Russian aggression......- that equals a deceleration of bankruptcy towards the German government and the Bundeswehr.

If these circumstances do not change rapidly (actually a miracle is needed) there is no way IMO that Ukraine can win against Russia, and the longer this ridiculous war takes, the more territory Putin will gain. And the more territory he gains the less likely it will become that Putin will stop before having occupied all of Ukraine.

As for Bismarck - you do know that his preferred ally was Russia? - it's was just silly Willy who thought that Austria would be a better choice. And Imperial Russia was able to create the largest empire and country on this planet - from the 16th century till 1914. So they can't have been that stupid or ineffective at all.

Sorry - somtimes I just can't controll my frustration in regards to NATO or Germany's political institutions.
Hei, this sounds now like a most fruitful discussion to me. My respect!

Regarding Mr. Putins IQ, I am not so impressed. He definitely manages to find original moves and surprise enemies. Most of the time. He is master in tactical level, but manages to fuck it up in strategic level. For example, he failed to push NATO back with his move against Ukraine, NATO got two new members instead, strengthening the NATO deterrance in the Baltic sea. Ukraine got also the candidate status in EU. How this can be of his best interests?

As a country leader, there have been better ones. Stalin, how bloody ruler he was, managed to make agrarian country into industrial one. Putin did not managed to raise Russia into the new economy, into digital era and has lost the half of the industrial heritage Russia got from USSR. Definitely, he managed to acquire a lot of national funds for personal use, and so did many of his friends. Shortly, some analysts claim that Putin is actually a western agent, sent to destroy Russia quickly and efficiently.

Regarding whether NATO soldiers will die for Estonia- yes. First and foremost Estonian soldiers, who are part of NATO forces. 10 000 years of such a neighborhood has provided us with quite some survival skills. We know where and how to shoot the enemy ourselves, what we need is technical support in missing critical areas mostly needed- air, sea, and long-distance artillery. As there are too many Russian soldiers, we need some sort of mass-killing weapons or robot killers, working on that. Secondly, by all means, it is cheaper for other NATO nations to take this fight abroad. It will be much more costly to stop Russia's advance on German or Italian soil, in terms of lives and infrastructure.

You seem to have overly big expectations toward NATO. It is a big simplification to reduce it into a black and white chess situation: Putin makes a move, NATO makes another. Should NATO react to every and any conflict in the world? Should NATO use any chance to gain military superiority? Let's compare joining NATO to buying an insurance policy: it will be valid if one purchases it beforehand. During a fire accident, it is too late to buy one, nobody will sell it. U. had the same independence duration we had, the same chances to build up their economy and join NATO. U. inherited actually a huge amount of USSR weaponry, including atomic bombs and they were the fourth weapon seller for quite some time in the world. Now they have to ask for support and NATO is to blame for not giving it enough? A lot of questions and only some have clear answers...

Regarding Germany, I would not be so frustrated. Hitler got elected in 1934, already 1938 they took Chechoslovakia. Four years to build up an army, provide it with equipment able to conquer West Europe, and risking to take Moscow? I am not sure whether we want to awake this giant from sleeping.

EU has been a good project in this sense, suppressing all the conflicts within Europe, where people have been constantly killing each other for thousands of years. I consider this a success story despite the obvious lack of military domain.
 
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Ryder

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Hei, this sounds now like a most fruitful discussion to me. My respect!

Regarding Mr. Putins IQ, I am not so impressed. He definitely manages to find original moves and surprise enemies. Most of the time. He is master in tactical level, but manages to fuck it up in strategic level. For example, he failed to push NATO back with his move against Ukraine, NATO got two new members instead, strengthening the NATO deterrance in the Baltic sea. Ukraine got also the candidate status in EU. How this can be of his best interests?

As a country leader, there have been better ones. Stalin, how bloody ruler he was, managed to make agrarian country into industrial one. Putin did not managed to raise Russia into the new economy, into digital era and has lost the half of the industrial heritage Russia got from USSR. Definitely, he managed to acquire a lot of national funds for personal use, and so did many of his friends. Shortly, some analysts claim that Putin is actually a western agent, sent to destroy Russia quickly and efficiently.

Regarding whether NATO soldiers will die for Estonia- yes. First and foremost Estonian soldiers, who are part of NATO forces. 10 000 years of such a neighborhood has provided us with quite some survival skills. We know where and how to shoot the enemy ourselves, what we need is technical support in missing critical areas mostly needed- air, sea, and long-distance artillery. As there are too many Russian soldiers, we need some sort of mass-killing weapons or robot killers, working on that. Secondly, by all means, it is cheaper for other NATO nations to take this fight abroad. It will be much more costly to stop Russia's advance on German or Italian soil, in terms of lives and infrastructure.

You seem to have overly big expectations toward NATO. It is a big simplification to reduce it into a black and white chess situation: Putin makes a move, NATO makes another. Should NATO react to every and any conflict in the world? Should NATO use any chance to gain military superiority? Let's compare joining NATO to buying an insurance policy: it will be valid if one purchases it beforehand. During a fire accident, it is too late to buy one, nobody will sell it. U. had the same independence duration we had, the same chances to build up their economy and join NATO. U. inherited actually a huge amount of USSR weaponry, including atomic bombs and they were the fourth weapon seller for quite some time in the world. Now they have to ask for support and NATO is to blame for not giving it enough? A lot of questions and only some have clear answers...

Regarding Germany, I would not be so frustrated. Hitler got elected in 1934, already 1938 they took Chechoslovakia. Four years to build up an army, provide it with equipment able to conquer West Europe, and risking to take Moscow? I am not sure whether we want to awake this giant from sleeping.

EU has been a good project in this sense, suppressing all the conflicts within Europe, where people have been constantly killing each other for thousands of years. I consider this a success story despite the obvious lack of military domain.

If only the Islamic world had a eu like structure but too bad we will never because we hate each other so much 🤬

I want a eu like structure for the Turkic world. But will never happen at all.
 
M

Manomed

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If only the Islamic world had a eu like structure but too bad we will never because we hate each other so much 🤬

I want a eu like structure for the Turkic world. But will never happen at all.
As a Turkmen I do dislike modern kıpchaks.
 

Ryder

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As a Turkmen I do dislike modern kıpchaks.

Nothing wrong in that but we should still love them. We all come from the same family.

What matters is mutual respect and treating each other with good intentions.

I know the Turkic world is not a single unit as we are diverse ourselves from culture, language, traditions, norms along with religion. Still we could all benefit from a EU like structure and put differences aside.
 

Gary

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Keep in mind that a loss for Russia in this war can and very likely would be seen as a threat to the survival of Russia as a state. In this sense, continuing the production of all necessary war material and weapons stocks is of tantamount importance.

However, the more Russia suffers in losses, the better this ultimately is for the west. Supplying Ukraine is, equally, of tantamount importance to them, as long as they can keep Russia in this painful limbo where victory is unlikely and defeat unacceptable.

This in turn raises the risk level of miscommunication, and ultimately confrontation, with EU and NATO states on the part of Russia. A war like that, where the west not only supplies Ukraine but has their ground troops actively engaging in combat against Russia, can spiral out of control in all sorts of manners.

But presently, with the inflation, food and energy insecurity and entrenching western hostility against Russia, and the murky picture that is the future, the only ones that make a profit is the armaments industry.



The Austrian political establishment, especially the far right and moderate right, are very close to Putin and his cronies. The picture you can see in the tweet is where Putin came to Kneissl's marriage in 2018, not in Vienna, but a small village in southern Austria (small as in 3248 people in 2018).

Putin and his oligarchs are well connected with the Austrian political and wealthy elites, basically an open secret in the country.

A further noteworthy case is where our former far-right vice chancellor was caught on tape trying to sell a national newspaper to a (pretend) russian oligarch, while intoxicated and snorting cocaine. You can read the Wikipedia Article for a general overview.
what is this love relationship between Austria and Russia ?, one of the biggest Russian supporter on Twitter is an Austrian (Geroman)
 

Ryder

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what is this love relationship between Austria and Russia ?, one of the biggest Russian supporter on Twitter is an Austrian (Geroman)

It goes back centuries actually. Russians and Austrians allied with each other against the Polish, Prussians, Ottomans and Napoleon. Only came to blows in ww1 due to their ambitions in the Balkans and due to Austria allying with Germany.

Russian Empire also bailed out the Austrians in the 1848 Revolution. In the cold war the Austrians also stayed neutral.
 

Ryder

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In the Crimean war the Austrian empire could have joined the Russians but chose to be neutral as their ambitions in the Balkans were under threat by the Russian Empire. Russians saw this as a betrayal.
 

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