Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

[Relic]

2.5 mil for 30 year old tanks with no upgrades is too much, even 1 mil is a lot for those tanks.

It's not about paying what they're worth. Pakistan needs Western "aid" and badly needs foreign currency to circulate in their system . Send it in the form of an overpayment for 200 MBTs.

"We'll pay $1.5 million for each tank, with spare parts and ammunition. For every tank you sell us, it comes with an additional $1.5 million USD aid bonus".

That's just good business. Maximize the amount you get out of the Pakistani's in the deal, while sending them fare compensation, along with financial help in return.

For the economies I'm talking about (Britain, France, Canada, Italy) $200 million each is peanuts in order to equip two Ukrainian tank brigades with an MBT that they already know how to use and service and already have logistics lines established to support .

It's not about simply overpaying for the tanks. It's about maximizing the efficiency of the purchase, while ensuring Pakistan feels adequately compensated (they need cash) so that they'll continue to sell you weapons for Ukraine in the future.

 

[Afif]

Oh yeah, Pakistan is desperate. Their economy is in shambles. They've also moved more in the direction of co-building tanks with China. Those Chinese model tanks make up the bulk of their tank forces.

If I'm the West, forget 44 of their T-80s. They were originally sold 320 of them by Ukraine in the late 90's.. I'm looking to get 200 of them (two full tank Brigades) back into the hands of the Ukrainians. 2.5 million USD each, for 200 T-80UD's, spare parts, and as many 125mm tank rounds as they'll sell you. I'd be looking to pay about $600 million USD for the purchase, split between 3 Western countries that are willing to cover $200 million of the cost each. A joint British, Canadian and French or Italian project sounds good to me.

I think you are overestimating, they are very unlikely to sell 200 T-80s. It will put their own security in uncomfortable spot.

 

[Gary]

I think you are overestimating, they are very unlikely to sell 200 T-80s. It will put their own security in uncomfortable spot.

50/50. This could cause a scandal in Pakistan, selling 200 tanks for a country of no specific importance for Pakistan's own agenda wrt India.

But Pakistan is an army with a country, the check and balance is very poor and I'm not discounting that their generals sell their national security for some "assistance" which will likely go into their own pocket.

 

[Afif]

50/50. This could cause a scandal in Pakistan, selling 200 tanks for a country of no specific importance for Pakistan's own agenda wrt India.

But Pakistan is an army with a country, the check and balance is very poor and I'm not discounting that their generals sell their national security for some "assistance" which will likely go into their own pocket.

Although I get your point, but I still like to believe 'they' are not that rotten.
But if this happens I will just shrug my shoulder and move on.

 

[contricusc]

For the economies I'm talking about (Britain, France, Canada, Italy) $200 million each is peanuts in order to equip two Ukrainian tank brigades with an MBT that they already know how to use and service and already have logistics lines established to support .

In countries such as Britain, France and Italy it would not be seen as peanuts since they all have very difficult economic problems. Politically it would be problematic. I think it would be much easier to finance such a deal if the US would pay half, and the EU the other half.

 

[contricusc]

Most people in Eastern countries dont care about the suffering of the Ukranian people (not saying they should after all to each their own) but seeing many people from Eastern Nations & Africa cheering on Russian Imperialism is just plain sickening.

Totally agree with you. It’s one thing to be anti-American, anti-West or anti-Israel (there are many reasons why some people would feel this way), and another thing to support Russian Imperialism.

By all standards, Russians have been more brutal than any of the “Western” nations in the last few decades.

Especially when Russia has a history of opressing Muslims in Chechnya & Central Asia.

Yes, they opress Muslims and Christians alike.

Just for comparison, just look at how the Americans left Afghanistan (an orderly withdrawal with almost no bloodshed) compared to how the Soviets left Afghanistan (putting gasoline on civilians and setting the alight, and being proud of it).

Also, the way the Russians bombed Aleppo or Grozny, is exactly how they acted in Mariupol or Bakhmut. They are just brutes who have no morals and don’t make any distinction between the people they slaughter.

Imagine the outrage if Israel would do in Gaza what Russia did in Aleppo.

 

[Gary]

Just for comparison, just look at how the Americans left Afghanistan (an orderly withdrawal with almost no bloodshed) compared to how the Soviets left Afghanistan (putting gasoline on civilians and setting the alight, and being proud of it).

The word here is "almost".

Days before the final exit, ISIS set up a bomb near the perimeter, in response U.S troops opens fire liberally to the crowd. Killing multiple people, mostly women and children.

By all standards, Russians have been more brutal than any of the “Western” nations in the last few decades.

More or less the same...its not the Russians that tie living people in a nuclear test, rather its the French, one of the most prominent faces of the Western world order.

 

[UkroTurk]

Previously, they've sold both 152 and 155mm artillery shells to Ukraine.

But they denied the news . İ dont think they will sell ammunition to Ukraine. PRC wouldn't allow.

 

[Relic]

But they denied the news . İ dont think they will sell ammunition to Ukraine. PRC wouldn't allow.

They already have. Absolutely no doubt about it. Whether they've denied it or not. Pakistani ammunition has absolutely arrived in German ports, destined for Ukraine.

Britain also flew numerous flights, with C-17's, full of Pakastani ammunition, to Romania and Poland. Pakistan is ABSOLUTELY willing to sell the West weapons, in exchange for much needed foreign currency.

 

[Gary]

Also, the way the Russians bombed Aleppo or Grozny, is exactly how they acted in Mariupol or Bakhmut. They are just brutes who have no morals and don’t make any distinction between the people they slaughter.

And you guys think you are any better.

A Dam in Syria Was on a ‘No-Strike’ List. The U.S. Bombed It Anyway. (Published 2022)

A military report warned that striking the giant structure could cause tens of thousands of deaths.

www.nytimes.com

Surprisingly enough, they do this when even a terrorist group and a brutal regime has ACTUALLY comes to the conclusion that this harms civillians lolololol...the irony

They bombed it anyway...using bunker buster bombs


As I said it before and I say it again, in war everybody is the same. Its portrayal of war parties that differs. Do you think the U.S or any country who actually goes to war cares on who they bombed ? lmao

 

[Marlii]

Just for comparison, just look at how the Americans left Afghanistan (an orderly withdrawal with almost no bloodshed) compared to how the Soviets left Afghanistan (putting gasoline on civilians and setting the alight, and being proud of it).

Mate people falling from airplanes and desperately trying to cling to them ain't orderly withdrawal or no bloodshed atleast the Soviet funded government lasted for 4 years after the Soviet withdrawal unlike the "orderly withdrawal "where the Afghan gov fell before even the withdrawal.and don't forget about the shit ton of weapons you left behind that are causing massive problems to the entire region.most of the US small arms have already made to indian borders in the hands of terrorists and attacks on pakistan has increased drastically with TTP now more stronger and don't forget the population you left behind

 

[Afif]

Totally agree with you. It’s one thing to be anti-American, anti-West or anti-Israel (there are many reasons why some people would feel this way), and another thing to support Russian Imperialism.

Why are you keep misinterpreting what we are saying. No body here is supporting Russian 'Imperialism'.

We are just saying, on a diplomatic and state to state level ( not moral or personal ) we simply don't care about the war that much ( except if there is any matter of our own national interest ) and we like to just keep it as it was before with Russia ( as well as with the others )

 

[Barry]

I get tired of "Europeans" peddling their blinkered nonsense.

 

[Ecderha]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1634479830061273091

 

[Ecderha]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1634428785952186368

 

[Ecderha]

putin's cannon fodders

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1634536915784421378

 

[contricusc]

Why are you keep misinterpreting what we are saying. No body here is supporting Russian 'Imperialism'.

We are just saying, on a diplomatic and state to state level ( not moral or personal ) we simply don't care about the war that much ( except if there is any matter of our own national interest ) and we like to just keep it as it was before with Russia ( as well as with the others )

This was not about what you are saying, but referencing to the many people in the East who cheer for Russia in this war. If you read Youtube comments on videos related to the war, the amount of support for Russia is disgusting.

 

[contricusc]

As I said it before and I say it again, in war everybody is the same. Its portrayal of war parties that differs. Do you think the U.S or any country who actually goes to war cares on who they bombed ? lmao

The US at least cares about its public image, so it restrains itself from doing the most horrific things indiscriminately. While they do bad things for sure, they try to limit the useless killing because it hurts their image. On the other hand, the Russians are proud of their destruction and are using it as a tactic to intimidate their enemies.

The US doesn’t do artillery bombing of cities until they are practically erased from the map, but the Russians have no shame in doing just that.

War is bad, no matter who fights you, but there is a different level of savagery when it comes to the Russians.

 

[Afif]

This was not about what you are saying, but referencing to the many people in the East who cheer for Russia in this war. If you read Youtube comments on videos related to the war, the amount of support for Russia is disgusting.

Don't judge people with youtube comments. They are mostly lonely keyboard warriors who are sitting in the dark corners of the rooms and has nothing to do except spitting out their hatred. ( bunch of delusionals with an IQ level less than room temperature )

I mean when that ISIS thing was trending just having a muslim surname was good enough to be viciously abused in social media even if you try to make any meaningful conversation. ( just for one example, I remember when Christchurch shooting happened a lot of people online celebrating the mass shooting like it was a perfect tit for tat and even justifying the killing of children by saying, they would become terrorists anyway ) How do you think it felt to us back then?
Or you can listen to the neocons in UK or US who are frequently obsessed with their 'glorious ancestors' who civilized the whole world And how we people in the East are always 'ungrateful' to the Empire and its good deed.


Besides It is not just the people in the East trying to justifying the Russia's war, a lot of Ult-right in Europe and America is sympathetic to Russia and if you carefully listen to their videos you will hear how they desperately try to explain, that zelensky is as bad as putin so there is no point in helping Ukraine and even try to justify Russia's logic.

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1634583458352644096

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1634492314327343107

French and British soldiers conduct urban warfare exercises in the city.