Defence Q&A S-400 or F-35 for Turkey ? |Debate and Discussion

[what]

Another embarassing and probably futile step by Hulusi Akar in Hürriyet. He proposed a Cyprus-Crete S300 kind of scenario to solve the S400 issue. The government fucked up so bad, they are now offering putting the 2bln € system somewhere else, in another place to get rid of the sanctions and access to F35.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359050404454137856

 

[the]

@the

I agree that we shot ourselves in the foot. F-35 deal was sweet losing that, on top of losing the plane's capabilities at a time of need and spending billions of dollars on a system we'll likely never going to use. These are terrible losses.

But, we have come this far, I say the path forward is to accelerate. We should start negotiations with Russia over Su-57 or Su-75 cite being kicked out of F35 program as reason. Either they will respond with more sanctions or they will fold and allow Turkey back into F-35 program. Either way we get a 5th generation fighter.

I think we all know that the likely result of doing that will be more sanctions. Personally, it doesn't make sense to me that people think Russia and Turkey are allies. You only need to look at history to see that, if anything, Russia are natural enemies. All you have to do is search "Russian airstrike on turkish soldiers" and you can see that even last Thursday 3 soldiers were murdered.

https://www.rt.com/news/376836-russia-turkey-strike-soldiers/

Its embarassing: "The Turkish military is satisfied with the actions and statements made by the Russian authorities in the aftermath of the incident"

If you really want to see how much of an ally Russia is to Turkey, search "Balyun airstrikes".

2020 Balyun airstrikes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51667717

I for one don't see the US murdering any Turkish soldiers. Also, why would you risk further worsening relations with the most important country in the world?
Its political and economical suicide......

 

[LegionnairE]

I for one don't see the US murdering any Turkish soldiers. Also, why would you risk further worsening relations with the most important country in the world?
Its political and economical suicide......

Well, They sunk TCG Muavenet, they supplied PKK with weapons and probably with training too and there's that dreadful "hood event"

They invade our neighbors, they created ISIS and blamed us for supporting it. You think USA is a natural ally of Turkey?

Probably as important as these is that they staged that 2016 coup attempt. They see us as a puppet state, not as an ally. We're not stupid.

Let's not get emotional. We need a 5th gen fighter and we need it now. Start negotiations with Russia, make it absolutely clear that either we'll get these planes from Russia or the USA, choice is theirs.

America lost in Afghanistan, lost in Ukraine, Syria, Iraq wants them to leave. Their entire middle east strategy is collapsing. They want to ruin things for themselves more? I don't think this current administration can take another disaster. They will fold.

 

[PatrioticTÜRK]

No point in discussing "what if......"

You have to look at it from today's standpoint.

1) Turkey keeps the s-400 unactivated, potentially purchases a second set of systems --> leads to more sanctions. Either way, they sit there not being used - $2.5 billion gone to waste.

2) Turkey sells its s-400 batteries to an ally (Azerbaijan? Libya?). The issue here is that, I'd assume you would need permission from Russia - who would likely reject any deal. Addittionally, any country that does purchase the batteries will want a significant discount or potentially future political favours. The benefits of this outcome will likely be immediate removal of US sanctions - and therefore an positive sign for the economy (likely to see the Lira gain value) if it means clearing tension with Turkey's natural allies.

- Turkey was going to purchase a total of 120 F35A/Bs for $12.4 billion. Whilst this is a substantial cost, one has to consider that the Turkish defence industry would have benefitted from sales of the fighter, given that Turkey had been given permission to manufacture components of its own F-35 engines. Furthermore, there would have been the opportunity to export the Som-J ammunition to other users of the F-35. Finally, Turkey would have held the European F-35 maintenance facility- providing further economic stimulus.

Anyway, Its hard to imagine the US suddenly re-accepting Turkey back into the F-35 programme, let alone with the perks of being a tier 3 partner.

Essentially, Turkey shot itself in the foot the minute it purchased the s-400 system.

The only real positive way of getting out of this scenario would be option 2, and hope that the US allows Turkey to return back to the programme as a gesture of goodwill and to show 'co-operation' between allies at a time where, lets just say, US leadership on the international stage has been lacking.

Perhaps an alternative route would be purchasing the Eurosam SAMP-T air defence system with a set of Eurofighters to bridge the gap until MMU and Hurjet are introduced. (Though this would rely on Turkey losing the s-400s and perhaps stopping "provocative actions" in the Eastern Med i.e. cutting down on the Mavi Vatan doctrine .

İ DİSAGREE WITH U
FİRTS F-35 İS NOT COMBAT PROVEN & TOO EXPENSİVE ALSO ALL THE DATABASE İN THE USA SO THEY CAN LOCK UR F-35 THEY LAGGİNG SENDİNG SPARE PARTS ON PURPOSE
SECOND USA-ISRAEL DOESNT WANT ANY COUNTRY TO HAVE STRONG AİR FORCE THAN U.S.A' S 52 STATE ISRAEL
THİRD. MAİN İSSUE İS WİTH TÜRKİYE&U.S.A NOT F-35 or S-400 THE İSSUE İS SO CALLED OUR NATO ALLY U.S.A TRYİNG TO CREATE TERRORİST STATE pkk/ypg/sdf by supporting them RİGHT İN OUR BORDER TO DESTABİLİSE THE REAGİON BUT WHAT COMES AROUND GOES AROUND THATS THE BİGGEST İSSUE İTS SHOWS HOW TWO FACE U.S.A is
U.S WİLL FUCK OFF AS İT DİD İN AFGHANİSTAN & WE LL BE ALONE WİTH THEM
ALSO THANKS FOR SANCTİONS COZ WE MAKE OUR OWN NATİVE WEAPONS
STUFF U SEE İN MEDİA İTS JST %10 OF WHAT WE SHOW İN MEDİA
ALSO WE SAW HOW USELESS PATRİOT ADS &SAM-T ADS WHEN HOUTHİES DESTROY ARAMCO
WE GOT 3000+KM BALİSTİC MİSSİLES
ANOTHER STUPİD EXUCUSE U.S SAYS RUSSİANS WİLL COPY F-35 WHAT A JOKE ISRAEL USE THEM İN SYRİA THEY GOT THER S-300 S-400 PLUS POLAND FLİES NEAR RUSSİA BORDER
OUR S-400 READY TO FİRE İF ANY BRAİNLESS PEOPLE THİNK TO ATTACK US İT LL BE THEİR END

WE WANTED ADS FROM US WHİCH İS RUBBİSH SYSTEM THEY DDNT GİVE US
WHY WLDNT U SELL TO UR NATO ALLY ? İT MEANS U.S.A HAS İNTENTİON TO BOMB US
İF THEY DO THAT MİSTAKE İT LL BE THEİR DİSASTER

 

[Ryder]

Greek, Armenian and Jewish lobbies played a role in our F35s getting taken away. Lets not forget they are working with fetocus.

The Diaspora's along with their fetocu allies are using USA as a way to get back at Turkey.

They have poisoned relations between both.

 

[Anastasius]

Well, They sunk TCG Muavenet, they supplied PKK with weapons and probably with training too and there's that dreadful "hood event"

They invade our neighbors, they created ISIS and blamed us for supporting it. You think USA is a natural ally of Turkey?

Probably as important as these is that they staged that 2016 coup attempt. They see us as a puppet state, not as an ally. We're not stupid.

Let's not get emotional. We need a 5th gen fighter and we need it now. Start negotiations with Russia, make it absolutely clear that either we'll get these planes from Russia or the USA, choice is theirs.

America lost in Afghanistan, lost in Ukraine, Syria, Iraq wants them to leave. Their entire middle east strategy is collapsing. They want to ruin things for themselves more? I don't think this current administration can take another disaster. They will fold.

America may not be the titan it once was but trading it for Russia, a country that likely won't survive the middle of this century, is insanity. America will get knocked down, reform and get back up again as it enters its Roman Empire period. Russia already passed that period and is dying.

America may not be the best ally ever but I will never understand Turks who actually think aligning with Russia is a better option. My only guess is that they don't know very much about the way Russia operates.

 

[Anastasius]

Greek, Armenian and Jewish lobbies played a role in our F35s getting taken away. Lets not forget they are working with fetocus.

The Diaspora's along with their fetocu allies are using USA as a way to get back at Turkey.

They have poisoned relations between both.

Greek and Armenian lobbies I can understand but why keep bundling Jews with them? Jews are probably one of the least hostile lobbies to Turkey in the US, if we analyze closely. And that's considering that Erdogan says on virtually a daily basis that Palestinians will be victorious, glory to God or whatever. I'd be a bit wary too if someone was spewing that kinda rhetoric in my direction on a regular basis.

Stick with the facts, no need to go full Nazi on top of that.

 

[Zafer]

America may not be the titan it once was but trading it for Russia, a country that likely won't survive the middle of this century, is insanity. America will get knocked down, reform and get back up again as it enters its Roman Empire period. Russia already passed that period and is dying.

America may not be the best ally ever but I will never understand Turks who actually think aligning with Russia is a better option. My only guess is that they don't know very much about the way Russia operates.

We only rely on ourselves and not anyone else.

 

[Ryder]

Greek and Armenian lobbies I can understand but why keep bundling Jews with them? Jews are probably one of the least hostile lobbies to Turkey in the US, if we analyze closely. And that's considering that Erdogan says on virtually a daily basis that Palestinians will be victorious, glory to God or whatever. I'd be a bit wary too if someone was spewing that kinda rhetoric in my direction on a regular basis.

Stick with the facts, no need to go full Nazi on top of that.

Jews will always back Israel. Honestly I dont blame them. Its the only Jewish state in the world.

Jews all mobilise when Israel is under threat.

Honestly Jews know its not better to piss off Turks.

But for decades a lot of Middle Eastern countries were hostile to Turkey while Israel was friendly.

Its all politics at the end of day. Erdogan has always had firey rehtoric. The attention is what he loves plus he knows how to speak while at the same time he insults other countries.

A lot of Turkish politicians fail to even use religion as a way to fire up the population. Erdogan does it with ease.

His a cunning opportunist. At the end of the day I do believe behind close doors its different as Turkey and Israel are slowly patching things up.

Erdogan insults the next day his friends with Germany and the Netherlands

His a politician its his job.

 

[Anastasius]

We only rely on ourselves and not anyone else.

That would be nice but that's not how the world works.

Ever heard the phrase "no man is an island"? It applies to nations too. You may not like either America or Russia much but one is clearly a much worse choice in the long run.

 

[Zafer]

That would be nice but that's not how the world works.

Ever heard the phrase "no man is an island"? It applies to nations too. You may not like either America or Russia much but one is clearly a much worse choice in the long run.

Non reliance is not no friends, non reliance is having the technology and means to look after oneself.

 

[Anastasius]

Non reliance is not no friends, non reliance is having the technology and means to look after oneself.

Which is basically impossible and that was my point. Especially for Turkey, which is not yet near the point of being able to just throw away the US for Russia. You can try and maximize your independence but pretending like Turkey won't suffer heavily for it is short-sighted at best.

 

[Zafer]

Which is basically impossible and that was my point. Especially for Turkey, which is not yet near the point of being able to just throw away the US for Russia. You can try and maximize your independence but pretending like Turkey won't suffer heavily for it is short-sighted at best.

We can take pain as we did in the many decades past but will our counterparts take the pain of bickering with Turkey. That is less likely.

Short-sighted, what are you talking about?

 

[Lonewolf]

We can take pain as we did in the many decades past but will our counterparts take the pain of bickering with Turkey. That is less likely.

Short-sighted, what are you talking about?

I think you guys are turning hyper nationalists here , you can be independent but can't reduce allies .

No nation destroy relationship out of ego , it creates trouble in future .

Many non aligned nation may turn against you due to some stupid comments passed or many friends may not help you in case of need .

Turkey has done well in defence equipment but everyone know it that help from Europe played a major role and for that to continue you need allies for future too .

 

[Manomed]

We can take pain as we did in the many decades past but will our counterparts take the pain of bickering with Turkey. That is less likely.

Short-sighted, what are you talking about?

Our country is in ruins because of people like you zafer go to university for gods sake lmao

 

[Zafer]

Our country is in ruins because of people like you zafer go to university for gods sake lmao

The only ruins we have is historical places that we keep for tourists.

I have been to university already but you need to grow up.

 

[Ryder]

The only ruins we have is historical places that we keep for tourists.

I have been to university already but you need to grow up.

Love the Pun.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

İ DİSAGREE WITH U
FİRTS F-35 İS NOT COMBAT PROVEN & TOO EXPENSİVE ALSO ALL THE DATABASE İN THE USA SO THEY CAN LOCK UR F-35 THEY LAGGİNG SENDİNG SPARE PARTS ON PURPOSE
SECOND USA-ISRAEL DOESNT WANT ANY COUNTRY TO HAVE STRONG AİR FORCE THAN U.S.A' S 52 STATE ISRAEL
THİRD. MAİN İSSUE İS WİTH TÜRKİYE&U.S.A NOT F-35 or S-400 THE İSSUE İS SO CALLED OUR NATO ALLY U.S.A TRYİNG TO CREATE TERRORİST STATE pkk/ypg/sdf by supporting them RİGHT İN OUR BORDER TO DESTABİLİSE THE REAGİON BUT WHAT COMES AROUND GOES AROUND THATS THE BİGGEST İSSUE İTS SHOWS HOW TWO FACE U.S.A is
U.S WİLL FUCK OFF AS İT DİD İN AFGHANİSTAN & WE LL BE ALONE WİTH THEM
ALSO THANKS FOR SANCTİONS COZ WE MAKE OUR OWN NATİVE WEAPONS
STUFF U SEE İN MEDİA İTS JST %10 OF WHAT WE SHOW İN MEDİA
ALSO WE SAW HOW USELESS PATRİOT ADS &SAM-T ADS WHEN HOUTHİES DESTROY ARAMCO
WE GOT 3000+KM BALİSTİC MİSSİLES
ANOTHER STUPİD EXUCUSE U.S SAYS RUSSİANS WİLL COPY F-35 WHAT A JOKE ISRAEL USE THEM İN SYRİA THEY GOT THER S-300 S-400 PLUS POLAND FLİES NEAR RUSSİA BORDER
OUR S-400 READY TO FİRE İF ANY BRAİNLESS PEOPLE THİNK TO ATTACK US İT LL BE THEİR END

WE WANTED ADS FROM US WHİCH İS RUBBİSH SYSTEM THEY DDNT GİVE US
WHY WLDNT U SELL TO UR NATO ALLY ? İT MEANS U.S.A HAS İNTENTİON TO BOMB US
İF THEY DO THAT MİSTAKE İT LL BE THEİR DİSASTER

Welcome to the forum @PatrioticTÜRK

Please note that writing in all caps is considered yelling and therefore impolite.
Try not to use all caps in your future posts. Thank you!

 

[LegionnairE]

America may not be the titan it once was but trading it for Russia, a country that likely won't survive the middle of this century, is insanity. America will get knocked down, reform and get back up again as it enters its Roman Empire period. Russia already passed that period and is dying.

America may not be the best ally ever but I will never understand Turks who actually think aligning with Russia is a better option. My only guess is that they don't know very much about the way Russia operates.

America is the one that won't survive this century. After Trump and Biden there's disaster after disaster and the people are extremely divided. The situation is ripe for a civil war. That whole country is a powder keg. All it takes is someone to light the match.

I am not a pro-Russia guy but with Karabakh issue over with: The biggest problem between Turkey and Russia is gone. This is a great victory for all involved. I believe in Syria and Ukraine, cooler heads could prevail and we could come to an arrangemenet. While I don't see them as a friend, we don't have to see them as an enemy either.

 

[Lool]

İ DİSAGREE WITH U
FİRTS F-35 İS NOT COMBAT PROVEN & TOO EXPENSİVE ALSO ALL THE DATABASE İN THE USA SO THEY CAN LOCK UR F-35 THEY LAGGİNG SENDİNG SPARE PARTS ON PURPOSE
SECOND USA-ISRAEL DOESNT WANT ANY COUNTRY TO HAVE STRONG AİR FORCE THAN U.S.A' S 52 STATE ISRAEL
THİRD. MAİN İSSUE İS WİTH TÜRKİYE&U.S.A NOT F-35 or S-400 THE İSSUE İS SO CALLED OUR NATO ALLY U.S.A TRYİNG TO CREATE TERRORİST STATE pkk/ypg/sdf by supporting them RİGHT İN OUR BORDER TO DESTABİLİSE THE REAGİON BUT WHAT COMES AROUND GOES AROUND THATS THE BİGGEST İSSUE İTS SHOWS HOW TWO FACE U.S.A is
U.S WİLL FUCK OFF AS İT DİD İN AFGHANİSTAN & WE LL BE ALONE WİTH THEM
ALSO THANKS FOR SANCTİONS COZ WE MAKE OUR OWN NATİVE WEAPONS
STUFF U SEE İN MEDİA İTS JST %10 OF WHAT WE SHOW İN MEDİA
ALSO WE SAW HOW USELESS PATRİOT ADS &SAM-T ADS WHEN HOUTHİES DESTROY ARAMCO
WE GOT 3000+KM BALİSTİC MİSSİLES
ANOTHER STUPİD EXUCUSE U.S SAYS RUSSİANS WİLL COPY F-35 WHAT A JOKE ISRAEL USE THEM İN SYRİA THEY GOT THER S-300 S-400 PLUS POLAND FLİES NEAR RUSSİA BORDER
OUR S-400 READY TO FİRE İF ANY BRAİNLESS PEOPLE THİNK TO ATTACK US İT LL BE THEİR END

WE WANTED ADS FROM US WHİCH İS RUBBİSH SYSTEM THEY DDNT GİVE US
WHY WLDNT U SELL TO UR NATO ALLY ? İT MEANS U.S.A HAS İNTENTİON TO BOMB US
İF THEY DO THAT MİSTAKE İT LL BE THEİR DİSASTER

Calm down friend!
Welcome to the forum, first of all.
No need to be so pissed; we are here just to share our opinions no more. However, do take care as shit may get heated in turkish related threads over here from time to time

And all what I want to say; the excuse that Turkey cant get the F35 from USA just because Turkey got S400 is a joke. No rule in NATO indicate that you cant buy weapons from Russia and as @PatrioticTÜRK indicated, S300s and S400s are in Syria and they probably got what they wanted from Israel continuous bombings. Not to mention that Greece has S300s as well. Didnt the USA ever think that the greek S300s can be used to obtain info from Turkish F35s prior to 2017 or did the angels bring some sort of revelations to the Americans suddenly, lool

I stand by Akar statement when he said that the USA is trying to close the issue at the level of F35-S400 but in fact it is a part of a greater trouble overall
This is undisputably one of the most pinpoint statements ever said by the defense minister

 

[Lool]

America is the one that won't survive this century. After Trump and Biden there's disaster after disaster and the people are extremely divided. The situation is ripe for a civil war. That whole country is a powder keg all it takes is someone to light the match.

I am not a pro-Russia guy But with Karabakh issue over with. The biggest problem between Turkey and Russia is gone. This is a great victory for all involved. I believe in Syria and Ukraine, cooler heads could prevail and we could come to an arrangemenet. While I don't see them as a friend, we don't have to see them as an enemy either.

America alone may not survive the century
But dont ever forget that there are countries that depend on The USA as one of the largest markets in the world
Countries like Japan, France, and even China wont just sit down and watch USA collapse. The USA has the mighty dollar and profits from the USA is worth gold after all


Though at the end I do agree that they will fall, no doubt about that. Many countries are already forsaking the dollar and are beginning to trade with their respective currencies just like in the old days