India Coffee House

[crixus]

So,what does this tell you?

The question is what it tell you ?

I know what it tells me , I was born in India so I think I know and understand this country better then you

 

[TR_123456]

Who said they are not Indians but do they consider themselves Indians , most of them consider themselves above LAw and when LAw takes course they shout Islamophobia . In India if you ask me I have more respect for pasmanda the eleite

Who's fault is that?
How can a secular country have different laws for every religion?
Whats democratic about that?

 

[crixus]

Who's fault is that?
How can a secular country have different laws for every religion?
Whats democratic about that?

Again I said you dont know India , this secular word was eneterd in Indian constitution during emergency in the preamble in 1970's. The original constitution has no word secular in it , it has relegious minority.
You literally hit the nail in India the govts which were literally blackmailed by Muslim clergy got the personal laws ( civilian) for specific to Muslims on relegious lines.

Muslims have the relegious laws in a secular country called India . and you can measure the level irony in the previous lines .

When people are demading equality ( uniform civil code) these so called fearful muslims start shouting Islamophobia

 

[TR_123456]

The question is what it tell you ?

I know what it tells me , I was born in India so I think I know and understand this country better then you

It tells me that is not about religion,most Gulf countries dont want refugees.
My country took in 1,5 mil Iraqi Kurds in the 90's,we are still paying the price.
They are different from the Turkish Kurds.
Not to mention the 4+ mil Syrians with all the problems they brought.
We didnt take them in for being Muslim/Yezdi/Christians but for being refugees.
What has India got to do with Iraq and Syria?

 

[Nilgiri]

I strongly urge all Indian members to watch this debate of young Indian Muslims and Hindus. @Nilgiri @crixus @Zapper @Jackdaws et al.

How respectful, refreshing, well-educated and enlightened these young Indians are, it is amazing. It is so different to what we see today in the news. Hateful, racist, extrem voices have taken over the main stream media of India. They're poisoning the Indian youth. However, seeing that people - especially young people like these six - still exist, gives me hope for India's future.

Good find Hturk. if admin @T-123456 or @MisterLike could join this thread to India coffee thread:

Indian Coffee House

Indian Coffee house: General News, Current Affairs, Chit Chat, Debate about India and the World at large =============== Welcome buddy @SHOX

defencehub.live

...as maybe you and others will like to have longer chit chat on it given this has no news article attached to it per se (seems like we want to do video --->op-ed--->debate kind of thing) especially given nature of what this discussion might involve.

Anyway...

The Muslim lad (Ali) specifically very much reminds me of my own close friend heh.

I agree with much of what Pallavi has to say...w.r.t long time frames and the somewhat lessened impact on such from the more short term impulses of current govt/media churn of narrative/agenda vs counter narrative/agenda in the "now".

This phenonemon is (like she says near the end) somewhat stratified from the actual ground reality that is weighted more by longer context and inertia:

Key findings about religion in India

Our new survey of 29,999 Indian adults takes a closer look at religious identity, nationalism and tolerance in Indian society.

www.pewresearch.org

We in the upper ecehelons of privileged existence also are somewhat mentally occupied by this stuff than the more earthy non-privileged that live it "Closer" so to speak.

However India as whole must be attuned as possible to past experiences of the world in being negligent to such impulses rising/churning.

This is in the end an undertaking of the Human psychology and anthropology in the end that is common everywhere the species has permeated.

The tragedy of Abel and Cain endures in its own way among enough of us now... after our departure/eviction from innocent Eden's gestation.

Even in our neighbourhood, our one-time-brother neighbour faced this chasm (of its own doing, quite early on after its own separation from India on basis of religion) and did extremely poorly in resolving it peacefully (even with the muslim majoritarian principle now in political setup)...instead breaking apart by the extreme horrific violence inflicted (on actually its majority at the time) and eventual liberation (of the Bengalis) gestated and precipitated by such.

Similarly, at start of 20th century...the 2 greatest flashpoints for anti-semitism were found in France and especially Russia.

Yet it was altogether separate quite unexpected country (with much more integrated Jewish population than either) that would face the brunt of the phenomenon mere decades later.

It is something to keep in mind, and thus it is useful for as much genuine counter pressure to arise early like I feel is doing so now.

This is why I am optimistic on India just like this young lad Ali.

We have been through way worse (on societal tension seeding/inheritance) than (far more homogeneous and 20th century wealth formative) Europe has ever been through.

Yet we have not debased ourselves like the European (and even American) "gold standards to sermon a generation later" fairly recently (in living memory) did....in fact nowhere close to such level.

This speaks volumes to our underlying civilisational ethos that sanctifies truth, tolerance and non-violence.... that must prevail and endure.

But it is sadly no consolation for those that pay the ultimate price through no fault of their own.

This is the reality of humankind. We are individuals, yet we form collectives too...and the latter can impose quite grievously and sadly on the former.

 

[Lool]

Ok so tell me why PAkistan got created in 1947 on what lines ?

Who said they are not Indians but do they consider themselves Indians , most of them consider themselves above LAw and when LAw takes course they shout Islamophobia . Its a muslims problem when they divided the country on relegious lines then the problem is on religious lines not ethnic or racial line

It appears that you are the ignorant one tbh
Why do u think muslims created Pakistan?

Watching current states in India will hopefully give u and answer, friend

 

[Jackdaws]

Muslims got the country divided on the name of religion , they got their country exclusive for Muslims and see the audacity they even seeking more then equal rights in country which non muslims got .

such audacity must be admired LoL , I never understand why Muslims have problems in all the countries where they are in minority and they have no minority where they are in majority LOL

This is historically inaccurate.

Muslims did not get the country divided. A section of Muslims did. For every Jinnah, there was a Maulana Azad too. Even in Pakistan, there were the likes of Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan, known as Frontier Gandhi who received India's highest civilian honor - The Bharat Ratna.

Another facet - when there was a population migration of Muslims to Pak and Hindus to India - the properties they left behind was given to incoming immigrants based on how much they had in the place they left.

What became a headache for the Nehru Govt. shortly after independence was the amount of Muslims wanting to come back in a couple years after migrating to Pakistan and laying a claim to their property which had now been awarded to Hindus who had come from Pakistan!

@Joe Shearer probably knows better. But if I recall reading, Govt. of India had to enact a law restricting the movement of Muslims returning to India from West Pakistan but they didn't apply this restriction to East Pakistan.

 

[TR_123456]

Again I said you dont know India , this secular word was eneterd in Indian constitution during emergency in the preamble in 1970's. The original constitution has no word secular in it , it has relegious minority.
You literally hit the nail in India the govts which were literally blackmailed by Muslim clergy got the personal laws ( civilian) for specific to Muslims on relegious lines.

Muslims have the relegious laws in a secular country called India . and you can measure the level irony in the previous lines .

When people are demading equality ( uniform civil code) these so called fearful muslims start shouting Islamophobia

So you admit its your own fault.
Its an internal problem of India.
No clergy can try something similar in my country.

 

[Nilgiri]

Sadly this is all due to politics

The ruling party is based on the "far, radical, right" as they say! Due to their recent screw ups, Mohdi had to ignite and silently promote tensions, hatred, rape within the indian community to force majority of the non-muslims into the far right by antagonising and encaging the muslims

Just read many posts on how Far-right hindu leaders are calling to rape muslim women, to take arms and kill imdian muslims; in order to cleanse the nation etc.....

At the end, the only winner is Mohdi while the indian community becomes more divided

This doesnt happen only in India though, many other countries like France adopt the same technique. Just look at what Macron is doing rn and you will understand the game. Sadly, Mohdi is taking things to the extreme as ppl are even more unhappy with him


However that doesnt mean that indians in general hate each other. In fact, I did befriend many indians both muslims and non-muslims and they were really bright

but as my political science teacher once said: "if you wanna ruin a basket with healthy, sweet, shiny apples, then all what you need to do is put one rotten one in the midst and watch the poison slowly spread" (this is a metaphor)

This is quite reductive take on the matter....

Modi's popularity/approval rating is recently adjudged to be around 72% IIRC....highest of any leader globally (in that poll iirc).

People as a whole are not "even more unhappy" with him (compared to say Macron)...and that too on some congruency (from your perception) of the politics involved (which Balkans is certainly no stranger to in way deeper realisation).

India is a literal continent of a country that is simply not comparable to understand in ANY other country's dynamics.
I suggest you look at the pew poll I posted earlier (about the communities within India impression of the nation, future and each other) before you proceed more in this convo.

Lot of things can be manufactured in media impressions too (they certainly dont have the full story...rather what gets easy clickbait).

As just one example...
Recently the "genocidewatch" alarmism for example got lot of spread.
I simply asked one Turkish member (harping on about it), if he had bothered to check what same people said about his country:

News - 5 Ex Armed Forces Chiefs Write To President, PM On Haridwar Hate Speeches

There is a 1 to 6 population ratio between between Muslims and Hindus in India. Now tell me again which side is facing danger. Not every where they are 1 to 6 , they are in majority in Kashmir and they drove out the minority Hindus just on the basis of their religion ( perfect example of...

defencehub.live

He never got back to me (somewhat predictably).
You see what basic grounding and credibility on both the debate and underlying knowledge actually needs?

The sinews of both confidence and concern run far deeper than what people well outside the system know (and often selectively harvest according to their bias).

It needs some actual personal inheritance and investment with the nation being talked about as first step.

Otherwise you are just pushed and pulled by whatever agenda most courses your way.

I personally abhor the (especially reactionary and quite often predictably ungrounded) manufactured alarmism, just as much as I abhor what is driving it.

The latter is not case of reductively crystallising it in Modi/BJP/Hindutva et al (in fact they are almost inevitable if you look at the timeframe and context, though they must be challenged and contained nonetheless wherever possible)...but will take too long to explain properly.

The former (alarmism) lends into driving the latter (pronounced and realised identity politics) as well given it inevitably turns into broad brush strokes in eye for and eye...in a most stupid unnecessary fashion. Like snake eating its own tail, same conundrum.

You see you will inevitably find (if you are rational and perceptive to humankind's long and ongoing story)...that out of three P's:

-People
-Power
-Precision

You can only pick 2 to manifest in 99.9% of reality (When its not just 1 to begin with).
Having all 3 is exponentially difficult by several orders of magnitude (to 2) and thus incredibly rare.

That with power and precision......are not people
Those that are people and have power, have no precision
Those that are people and have precision, have no power

Maiestas? ....facilius dictum quam factum...

 

[Jackdaws]

My personal view on this matter is that religion by its very nature is meant to pure. Politics by its very nature is meant to be dirty. You mix something pure with dirty, then you aren't going to purify religion for sure!

 

[crixus]

It appears that you are the ignorant one tbh
Why do u think muslims created Pakistan?

Watching current states in India will hopefully give u and answer, friend

Sorry Christians of Rome demaned a country specific for Muslims of South Asia in 1947 and got East and West PAkistan exclusive for south Asian Muslims.
@Jackdaws

 

[Jackdaws]

So you admit its your own fault.
Its an internal problem of India.
No clergy can try something similar in my country.

Again @crixus - the Supreme Court has ruled that India was and remains a secular Republic since it became a Republic - this is the case

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/60799/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=238573f48275b685fc4286d86fb7f8d791b95b89-1605159943-0-AUH3bFyciTLUFhD1SxBDxmdiWyx30gRbc9sKNMEp2AVFRikpp9Yj04upKlxDKg_g67cgonAuoofwtbmSbe7LiFvmdvh1UpVsGEiqmE8NRpW9IZOEaFfi0nC_hORolA9ehgyy8bJ19HFLaV5jtvnCBm9aDQBTp_-rkgKXSxmi5tSu9XKBw1fOvLunDzLkIS1P5Hnoz1yZ6hRi3oBb7brYxYqdXJe-3q0-BNsLFbEaLkO_yaPSbwXcAdvByLdw3yqOivpiMoL6XXvbtnp3IQBCNCtUP6oABTxAbcofz2vMJei_V6_RBiFUFq0DniR6cd7PxtJ-IdP6T6u5yk3b1T-owvbOVfS74wnCJe-ke8RIQXBt

 

[TR_123456]

Again @crixus - the Supreme Court has ruled that India was and remains a secular Republic since it became a Republic - this is the case

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/60799/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=238573f48275b685fc4286d86fb7f8d791b95b89-1605159943-0-AUH3bFyciTLUFhD1SxBDxmdiWyx30gRbc9sKNMEp2AVFRikpp9Yj04upKlxDKg_g67cgonAuoofwtbmSbe7LiFvmdvh1UpVsGEiqmE8NRpW9IZOEaFfi0nC_hORolA9ehgyy8bJ19HFLaV5jtvnCBm9aDQBTp_-rkgKXSxmi5tSu9XKBw1fOvLunDzLkIS1P5Hnoz1yZ6hRi3oBb7brYxYqdXJe-3q0-BNsLFbEaLkO_yaPSbwXcAdvByLdw3yqOivpiMoL6XXvbtnp3IQBCNCtUP6oABTxAbcofz2vMJei_V6_RBiFUFq0DniR6cd7PxtJ-IdP6T6u5yk3b1T-owvbOVfS74wnCJe-ke8RIQXBt

But its not.

 

[Jackdaws]

But its not.

What do you mean?

 

[TR_123456]

What do you mean?

Its not secular.

 

[Nilgiri]

Muslims got the country divided on the name of religion , they got their country exclusive for Muslims and see the audacity they even seeking more then equal rights in country which non muslims got .

such audacity must be admired LoL , I never understand why Muslims have problems in all the countries where they are in minority and they have no minority where they are in majority LOL

Apprise me with percentage of minorities in muslim countries Mr. nonignorant .

Yazidi a minority in Iraq got their girls sold in markets of Iraq , Hindu girls in Paksitan got kidnapped raped and converted in front of their parents , Syrian christans are most presecuted in Syria , and the list goes on .......

Such a concern for those who got their country specific for them on relegious lines really make my eyes wet .......

This is wrong approach. Islam is not some monolith entity existing to apply A to B over large expanse especially.

Let us be specific in targeting the issues, they stem in all cultures and societies in the end as we are all human...the contexts vary for the cake...the particular present "slice" varies too.

Even large parts of India (a continent of a country as you know) have different diversity and tolerance underlying them (compared to each other)....both on these (religion) matters and other forms of identity politics that have manifested in past, present and future.

You don't answer reductivism with more reductivism. Eye for an eye whataboutism wont achieve progress to begin with.

You have to explain our unique case in scale and context. That is only way to better discussion and some possible solution in the end to grave problems we have.

 

[Jackdaws]

Its not secular.

Of course it is. Just like Ku Klax Klan and Jesus freaks in middle America can't take away from the secularism of the US - the same applies to India.

 

[crixus]

This is historically inaccurate.

Muslims did not get the country divided. A section of Muslims did. For every Jinnah, there was a Maulana Azad too. Even in Pakistan, there were the likes of Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan, known as Frontier Gandhi who received India's highest civilian honor - The Bharat Ratna.

Another facet - when there was a population migration of Muslims to Pak and Hindus to India - the properties they left behind was given to incoming immigrants based on how much they had in the place they left.

What became a headache for the Nehru Govt. shortly after independence was the amount of Muslims wanting to come back in a couple years after migrating to Pakistan and laying a claim to their property which had now been awarded to Hindus who had come from Pakistan!

@Joe Shearer probably knows better. But if I recall reading, Govt. of India had to enact a law restricting the movement of Muslims returning to India from West Pakistan but they didn't apply this restriction to East Pakistan.

you know dont trigger me I come form aplace where we have seen those who lost everything just due to their religion in 1947 ,

Do you know how many seats Muslim League won in Awadh ( currently ) UP in 1946 .seems like only ghost voted for them

Seems like no one died in Calcutta due to direct action day . Are you sure about Maulana Abul Kalam Azad ? If you wish I will share his speeches .......

 

[TR_123456]

Of course it is. Just like Ku Klax Klan and Jesus freaks in middle America can't take away from the secularism of the US - the same applies to India.

Oh yes,in that case it is for sure.

 

[Nilgiri]

And @crixus all what I will say is that if the Hindu leaders havent been promoting genocide against the muslims for decades, Pakistan wouldnt have been formed and India would probably be a mighty superpower that is on par, if not surpassing, China itself

Hmmm, you seem to have waded into this a bit far now.

Can I have some names of these "Hindu leaders" that have been promoting genocide "for decades" (I am assuming prior to partition)?

Since you bring up genocide, please state the genocides that happened in South Asia in 20th century to begin with...so we know if you are referenced + grounded here....or being selective + distorted.

There's a big blood drop on one flag (of 3 brothers) to remind you.