Indonesia Indonesian Army,Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Darat (TNI-AD)

[Madokafc]

Do you guys think if TNI need a new tank with 120mm gun, they will develop Kaplan as the base? Or buy another MBT like Leopard?

How much they need it?

 

[Madokafc]

Assuming to replace old Leopard they currently have.

Leopard 2 is not that old, those AMX13 is antique. If it only 100 just bought them directly

 

[FPXAllen]

Do you guys think if TNI need a new tank with 120mm gun, they will develop Kaplan as the base? Or buy another MBT like Leopard?

From my perspective, I think it will be great if we can add about 100 more Leopard 2A7 MBTs to complement 103 we already have on condition that all of the remaining 2A4s are upgraded to the 2RI standard first. With 200 MBTs, we can have more flexibility regarding their placement especially considering that they will be highly useful to protect our new capital at Kalimantan.

However, it should be noted that we'll also need to have a lot more of Harimau tanks as QRF in, say, between 400 to 600 units and probably upgunned with 120 mm gun to simplify ammo logistics (though I don't know how far will affect Harimau's weight, performance and ammo storage capacity). Another option without upgunning them is to equip all of them with Falarick missiles that while this will add more logistical complexity but these missiles' maximum 5 km range is certainly something to be taken account of by the approaching enemy.

Of course, all of these armors will be easy prey in today's battlefield without sufficient infantry, anti-air, and tactical air supports as we can see happening in Ukraine for the last week. So we'll also need more APCs, IFVs, mobile SAM/AAAs, assault and attack helos as well as drones to complement them.

Just my 2 kepeng.

 

[Umigami]

From my perspective, I think it will be great if we can add about 100 more Leopard 2A7 MBTs to complement 103 we already have on condition that all of the remaining 2A4s are upgraded to the 2RI standard first. With 200 MBTs, we can have more flexibility regarding their placement especially considering that they will be highly useful to protect our new capital at Kalimantan.

However, it should be noted that we'll also need to have a lot more of Harimau tanks as QRF in, say, between 400 to 600 units and preferably upgunned with 120 mm gun to simplify ammo logistics (though I don't know how far will affect Harimau's weight, performance and ammo storage capacity). Another option without upgunning them is to equip all of them with Falarick missiles that while this will add more logistical complexity but these missiles' maximum 5 km range is certainly something to be taken account of by the approaching enemy.

Of course, all of these armors will be easy prey in today's battlefield without sufficient infantry, anti-air, and tactical air supports as we can see happening in Ukraine for the last week. So we'll also need more APCs, IFVs, mobile SAM/AAAs, assault and attack helos as well as drones to complement them.

Just my 2 kepeng.

120mm cartridge less ammunition are more prone to cook off than 105 mm. Not a good thing for lightly armored Harimau.

 

[FPXAllen]

120mm cartridge less ammunition are more prone to cook off than 105 mm. Not a good thing for lightly armored Harimau.

I personally prefer Harimau gun as it is though, because it won't be an easy matter of swapping guns and it will need a lot of money to do it unless it's done before the mass production start.

But still, the next point remains: Falarick should come as standard for our Harimau. If we can somehow acquire local production license for Falarick ATGM from Ukraine, then all the better. If not, and if we can't acquire Falarick in sufficient large quantity, we should consider other similar alternative like Israeli's LAHAT, for example.

This will add more option for Harimau's deployment since they can also be used as artillery with their 42° maximum gun elevation. In short, having smart munition as their standard ammo loadout can be pretty effective to counter heavier and better armored opponents from afar.

 

[Umigami]

Looking at these image, thank God they redesign it!

Before:

Now:

 

[FPXAllen]

View attachment 40467

Oh this is gold! With that amount of negative elevation angle, I can see this tank hide behind a steep hill to fire on the enemy with hull down position, or firing down on them from an elevated position.

I just wish the photographer also took a picture showing Harimau with its gun on its maximum elevation from the same point of view.

Edit: Haven't watched the Pindad video before. Watching it now.

 

[Van Kravchenko]

Looking at these image, thank God they redesign it!

Before:
View attachment 40472
View attachment 40473
View attachment 40474
View attachment 40476


Now:
View attachment 40465
View attachment 40466
View attachment 40467
View attachment 40468
View attachment 40470
View attachment 40471

I always with love tank with huge DEPRESSION. only Russian have litttle to none Depression on their tanks. Thats why they're happy when leaving their tanks amidst battlefield.

 

[Var Dracon]

say, between 400 to 600 units and probably upgunned with 120 mm gun to simplify ammo logistics (though I don't know how far will affect Harimau's weight, performance and ammo storage capacity).

Cockerill 3000 series does not support 120 mm gun (as for now), only 30, 40, 50, 90, and 105 mm. That's why Korean used XC-8 turret, they can be fitted with 105 and 120 mm.

I don't know what would be needed to switch between two turret (whether the turret ring diameter is the same, or whether they affect the whole vehicle in terms of balance, weight, electronics, etc). Budget, testing (which takes time), and redesign is something that comes to mind to switch turret. Keep in mind that we are already lagging in producing and deploying simpler vehicle such as Badak.

 

[Umigami]

From my perspective, I think it will be great if we can add about 100 more Leopard 2A7 MBTs to complement 103 we already have on condition that all of the remaining 2A4s are upgraded to the 2RI standard first. With 200 MBTs, we can have more flexibility regarding their placement especially considering that they will be highly useful to protect our new capital at Kalimantan.

However, it should be noted that we'll also need to have a lot more of Harimau tanks as QRF in, say, between 400 to 600 units and probably upgunned with 120 mm gun to simplify ammo logistics (though I don't know how far will affect Harimau's weight, performance and ammo storage capacity). Another option without upgunning them is to equip all of them with Falarick missiles that while this will add more logistical complexity but these missiles' maximum 5 km range is certainly something to be taken account of by the approaching enemy.

Of course, all of these armors will be easy prey in today's battlefield without sufficient infantry, anti-air, and tactical air supports as we can see happening in Ukraine for the last week. So we'll also need more APCs, IFVs, mobile SAM/AAAs, assault and attack helos as well as drones to complement them.

Just my 2 kepeng.

Cockerill 3000 series does not support 120 mm gun (as for now), only 30, 40, 50, 90, and 105 mm. That's why Korean used XC-8 turret, they can be fitted with 105 and 120 mm.

I don't know what would be needed to switch between two turret (whether the turret ring diameter is the same, or whether they affect the whole vehicle in terms of balance, weight, electronics, etc). Budget, testing (which takes time), and redesign is something that comes to mind to switch turret. Keep in mind that we are already lagging in producing and deploying simpler vehicle such as Badak.

Current John Cockerill CMI 3105 is good enough. Its cannon is able to contain more pressure than old L7 hence more kinetic energy. For now try to put Lahat on it.

 

[FPXAllen]

Cockerill 3000 series does not support 120 mm gun (as for now), only 30, 40, 50, 90, and 105 mm. That's why Korean used XC-8 turret, they can be fitted with 105 and 120 mm.

I don't know what would be needed to switch between two turret (whether the turret ring diameter is the same, or whether they affect the whole vehicle in terms of balance, weight, electronics, etc). Budget, testing (which takes time), and redesign is something that comes to mind to switch turret. Keep in mind that we are already lagging in producing and deploying simpler vehicle such as Badak.

That's why I wrote in the next reply that I prefer Harimau as it is now. Even if its cannon is "just" 105 mm, it still can cause a lot of damage with its standard direct fire mode and other advanced features.

For example, if we go for LAHAT, we can have tank-launched ATGM with 8 km maximum range. And if we also go for smart munition, we can have precision strike artillery with a maximum range that can rival our KH178 howitzer.

 

[Madokafc]

 

[Madokafc]

It it's up to me, i would like to negotiated license production of newest series of Leopard 2 for at least between more than 600-700 units more. With that's number they can formed three armored brigade combat team among the three infantry Division of Kostrad. And that's too they can spare enough number to add at least two or three independen ABCT in which one unit should be stationed in new Capital, one units should replaced of the current form of first cavalry brigade (limpung alugoro) in Jakarta and the other one should be put in Sumatra as part of strategic reserve units close to South China Sea. With this we can had a very powerful spearhead units at Corps level (KOSTRAD) and ensured vital Cities like Jakarta and capital city adequately protected.

This we can took US Army ABCT as reference and formed the strength with our condition and budget availability, though i prefer the more complete solution.

Meanwhile for regular combat units among KODAM, i would prefer for their to use Harimau medium tank as their spearhead armored combat units at brigade level. This means they need to procure at least more than 1000 units of them to equipped every Kodam with one ABCT, as spearhead units. Not to mention if there is a need to put more than one ABCT in a single KODAM with several reason like they have direct land Border with neighbor, there is escalation of arm races and so on.

The reason is Harimau should have much lesser logistical foot print compared to the Leopard 2 so they can be distributed among large Islands KODAM armored brigade units. And we should also pursue more concession when we bought in number like trying to get license production of the Cannon, turret and gear box engines system as such number is adequate enough to warrant self production.

 

[JATOSINT]

In mobile and protected firepower we trust

 

[Lordimperator]

Anyway,
Why dont we look for the Korean K2 MBT?

 

[FPXAllen]

Anyway,
Why dont we look for the Korean K2 MBT?

If its price remains the same at around US$8.5 - 9.8 million per unit, then it's likely the third or fourth most expensive tank today.

But if we have the money, I still prefer that we go for Leopard 2A7+ (US$ 11-16 million/unit), or Japan's Type 10 (US$ 15 million) especially if the latter will finally allow to export it abroad. Regarding Leopard 2, recent drastic increase in Germany's defence budget may means that they will be producing more Leopard 2A7 which will probably lower their price further.

 

[Madokafc]

Leopard 2 all the way, the benefit would eventually outweight the cons.

well after some contemplation, i am remember we are almost bought hundreds of either Ukraine T64 Bulat or Russian T-72 in early 2010's or something, if not for the insistence of late general Pramono Edhie to bought Leopard 2.

It would demoralized our soldier even before the fight started if they are insist on such system.

 

[that69420]

It it's up to me, i would like to negotiated license production of newest series of Leopard 2 for at least between more than 600-700 units more. With that's number they can formed three armored brigade combat team among the three infantry Division of Kostrad. And that's too they can spare enough number to add at least two or three independen ABCT in which one unit should be stationed in new Capital, one units should replaced of the current form of first cavalry brigade (limpung alugoro) in Jakarta and the other one should be put in Sumatra as part of strategic reserve units close to South China Sea. With this we can had a very powerful spearhead units at Corps level (KOSTRAD) and ensured vital Cities like Jakarta and capital city adequately protected.

This we can took US Army ABCT as reference and formed the strength with our condition and budget availability, though i prefer the more complete solution.

View attachment 40492

View attachment 40493

Meanwhile for regular combat units among KODAM, i would prefer for their to use Harimau medium tank as their spearhead armored combat units at brigade level. This means they need to procure at least more than 1000 units of them to equipped every Kodam with one ABCT, as spearhead units. Not to mention if there is a need to put more than one ABCT in a single KODAM with several reason like they have direct land Border with neighbor, there is escalation of arm races and so on.

The reason is Harimau should have much lesser logistical foot print compared to the Leopard 2 so they can be distributed among large Islands KODAM armored brigade units. And we should also pursue more concession when we bought in number like trying to get license production of the Cannon, turret and gear box engines system as such number is adequate enough to warrant self production.

I wonder, what if the 1st Kostrad Infantry Division change to 1st Kostrad Armored Division by placing 2 Leopard ABCT and 1 BCT that mostly filled with Pandur 2 (create our own version of the Stryker Brigade Combat Team but with Pandur 2). The idea is because of the fact that western Indonesia has bigger islands, more lands, and the fact that their prepositioning as mentioned is strategical for the South China Sea is important to have that big amount for firepower there.

 

[Madokafc]

I wonder, what if the 1st Kostrad Infantry Division change to 1st Kostrad Armored Division by placing 2 Leopard ABCT and 1 BCT that mostly filled with Pandur 2 (create our own version of the Stryker Brigade Combat Team but with Pandur 2). The idea is because of the fact that western Indonesia has bigger islands, more lands, and the fact that their prepositioning as mentioned is strategical for the South China Sea is important to have that big amount for firepower there.

They would lose the strategic value as strategic command reserve units while do so by put their Forces solely as heavy striker in which need a lot of logistic footprint and more preparation time for mobilization but doesn't have the more mobile para and light infantry capability. One cavalry brigade (ABCT is preferable) and two infantry brigade combat team is more preferable choices within each of Kostrad infantry Division.

On another notes, i would be more inclined if the Army to create a dedicated armored division or even armored Corps under direct Army HQ supervision and at the same level with Kostrad.

 

[satria]

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