Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

NEKO

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There is some issues with the 1st batch of the submarine and the 2nd batch will be build in South Korea, meanwhile the scorpene will be completely build in Indonesia.

I guess we have to compensate money if we terminate it. The same issue with why Su-35 contract also haven't been terminated and left alone without being executed.

In other words, we have no money or don't want to pay the compensation.
Yup, but MoD should take care of this problem quickly and be done with it.
 

NEKO

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2 subs will be build in South Korea, 1 in Indonesia (not sure if it will be completely build here or we just assembling it with some hull section that is shipped from korea).
 

Lordimperator

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2 subs will be build in South Korea, 1 in Indonesia (not sure if it will be completely build here or we just assembling it with some hull section that is shipped from korea).
total AlRI will have 6 Nagapasa and 2 scorpene for the coming decades, so they will continue the 2nd batch but with the new timeline unlike the projected before?
 

Umigami

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What citadel?
In modern ships it is usually a gastight boundary that enables personnel within to operate in a CBRN environment without special equipment. It is pressurised with filtered air and access is through air locks.

 

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There is some issues with the 1st batch of the submarine and the 2nd batch will be build in South Korea, meanwhile the scorpene will be completely build in Indonesia.
How much sense this sentence make sense to you? Given that the local manufacturer couldn't achieve certain things and they will be able to construct a bigger and relatively more complex submarine? A shipyard that wasn't able to build Type-209 will be able to construct Scorpene "completely". (terms and conditions *technician arrive from France, equipment come from France, low-ToT on field and design, French engineers assembles blocks with French technicians, certain blocks arrive pre-assembled and built at the PT. PAL - this doesn't sound like complete local production to me but a cover-up local production)

2 subs will be build in South Korea, 1 in Indonesia (not sure if it will be completely build here or we just assembling it with some hull section that is shipped from korea).
This was already done in the first batch, in second batch it makes more sense if they follow the track of the 1-3rd's way.
From many rumors, the navy indeed have problems like the expert said. But thanks for the excellent sub by German (209 class), even with those problems there's no serious consequences up until Nanggala tragedy after being retrofitted in Korea. As bad as the navy was, they still capable to operates German made subs nicely and have long history of using submarine, including Russian made submarines.

Then come the Korean sub (Changbogo class) with their 'quirks' that highlighted the problems in navy even further who can't ngakalin it because the 'quirks' in Korean made subs are too much for the navy to handle.

Both sides have their own problems. But the Korean made subs have bigger problems than the usual German made subs navy usually used.

Blaming only one side while hiding the problems on the other side is just pure bullshit.
Every submarine has problems in their typical voyage, there isn't one submarine that hasn't faced a single issue during even a simple voyage. It is about assessing it, maintaining it, reporting immediately and getting it fixed by available technicians or assistance from land, first by "uplink",if needed by delivery or spare parts and technicians via helicopters.

Using these simple problems as for political reasons is slightly cheap.

How about Nanggala's sinking? any reason came out yet? how far they have investigated maintenance records in PT. PAL? How come an MLU done a decade ago could be somehow related to the sinking, even if it does, it is more business of the shipyard and technicians who maintains the sub not the one who has upgraded it a decade ago.
 

NEKO

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How much sense this sentence make sense to you? Given that the local manufacturer couldn't achieve certain things and they will be able to construct a bigger and relatively more complex submarine? A shipyard that wasn't able to build Type-209 will be able to construct Scorpene "completely". (terms and conditions *technician arrive from France, equipment come from France, low-ToT on field and design, French engineers assembles blocks with French technicians, certain blocks arrive pre-assembled and built at the PT. PAL - this doesn't sound like complete local production to me but a cover-up local production)


This was already done in the first batch, in second batch it makes more sense if they follow the track of the 1-3rd's way.

Every submarine has problems in their typical voyage, there isn't one submarine that hasn't faced a single issue during even a simple voyage. It is about assessing it, maintaining it, reporting immediately and getting it fixed by available technicians or assistance from land, first by "uplink",if needed by delivery or spare parts and technicians via helicopters.

Using these simple problems as for political reasons is slightly cheap.

How about Nanggala's sinking? any reason came out yet? how far they have investigated maintenance records in PT. PAL? How come an MLU done a decade ago could be somehow related to the sinking, even if it does, it is more business of the shipyard and technicians who maintains the sub not the one who has upgraded it a decade ago.
I don't think there is any conclusion reached about what caused the sinking, but at that time I think i read an article explaining that nanggala should have underwent maintenance but being postponed and then the accident happened (I could be wrong tho).

Regarding the ToT scheme I think its more about marketing strategy, SK want to be involved more and thus some submarine will be build in SK and Indonesia will only assembling submarine locally at first, after several submarine being build by SK then Indonesia will be allowed to completely build the submarine locally. Meanwhile France will be offering straight up locally build submarine so they can enter Indonesian market and compete against SK. What makes SK offer is quite tempting for me is that Indonesia will be allowed to export it in the future (said the previous MoD), not sure if there will be any country that will be interested with that tho.


Rather than abandoning new submarine procurement, the govt decide to switch vendor instead there must be reason for that. Although it is still unclear if MoD really want to ditch the contract with SK, if he is chasing for quantity then who knows maybe there will be nagapasa batch 2 and scorpene, and maybe interim submarine.


Currently Indonesia only have 4 submarine, 1 of it is too old and it is better to retire it soon and that would leave Indonesia with only 3 submarine, the current target for submarine number is 8 and after that 12. We have serious issue about quantity and quality.
 

Anmdt

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I don't think there is any conclusion reached about what caused the sinking, but at that time I think i read an article explaining that nanggala should have underwent maintenance but being postponed and then the accident happened (I could be wrong tho).

Regarding the ToT scheme I think its more about marketing strategy, SK want to be involved more and thus some submarine will be build in SK and Indonesia will only assembling submarine locally at first, after several submarine being build by SK then Indonesia will be allowed to completely build the submarine locally. Meanwhile France will be offering straight up locally build submarine so they can enter Indonesian market and compete against SK. What makes SK offer is quite tempting for me is that Indonesia will be allowed to export it in the future (said the previous MoD), not sure if there will be any country that will be interested with that tho.


Rather than abandoning new submarine procurement, the govt decide to switch vendor instead there must be reason for that. Although it is still unclear if MoD really want to ditch the contract with SK, if he is chasing for quantity then who knows maybe there will be nagapasa batch 2 and scorpene, and maybe interim submarine.


Currently Indonesia only have 4 submarine, 1 of it is too old and it is better to retire it soon and that would leave Indonesia with only 3 submarine, the current target for submarine number is 8 and after that 12. We have serious issue about quantity and quality.
How many crews are actually ready to operate the submarines, like ready-ready, not just based on number of graduates but people who can actually take a submarine out to an operation or advanced exercises? After nanggala sinking, assuming there were some trainees along with the experienced submariners, there is definitely a shortage on the crew to run those submarines (as well as the interim ones to be received).

What makes sense is increasing capabilities of a shipyard by following a ToT scheme, the contract with SK was logical for this reason, it has delivered capabilities step by step and it was doable. However absorbing a whole submarine construction ToT is not quite an easy job, especially for a submarine type and construction methods PT. PAL haven't been familiar with, after Type-209's construction.

I think quality of a submarine force is rather defined by quality of the crew rather than the equipments. An inexperienced crew with a top-notch submarine (let's say Scorpene) may not be considered as strategical as a Type-209 operated by a crew who has been trained by submarines who have been familiar with similar platforms. I would say add +10 years to call Scorpene, after its delivery to the Navy, as a strategical submarine force asset.

Meanwhile Type-209s were mastered by Indonesian submariners, they knew similar-hull's almost all characteristics, got used to the CMS, do and don'ts of the submarine, capabilities, signatures by all means. I can detail this further with pumps and any other mechanical switch and valves and particularly weapons and electronics; it takes time to get known to a maritime platform, let it be a ship or submarine.
 

Gundala

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I guess we have to compensate money if we terminate it. The same issue with why Su-35 contract also haven't been terminated and left alone without being executed.

In other words, we have no money or don't want to pay the compensation.
There are other form of compensation in G to G relation, it can vary from political support to purchasing other military assets. Perhaps certain compensation already being made tho they may wanted to keep it in the dark to avoid each domestic political risks.

Regarding CBG batch II from my personal perspective I dont think there wont be any more of those batch up until 2024. Tho things may change but the chance is very minimal.

We might get better deal over all with Franco if we decided to execute all the plan with them, the obstacles are within our own capacity to absorb the know how and the facilities itself. This is why we see those rencana penanaman modal negara is some of our state owned shipyard. Additional added value is the political defense cooperation with Franco that can result in better positioning in regional security to balance both US and China.

Regardless, get that dang Rafale & Scorpene contract activated, we need more birds in the sky, more subs in the water and time is running out :eek::eek:
 

chibiyabi

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Korean basicly a rasis they look down on us like the much superior ras than us belive it or not
korean and japs they just the same, they both 11-12 but japs soften, korean rude. if you look video about korean company in indo, you'll see how rude korean people can be
 

chiphocks

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korean and japs they just the same, they both 11-12 but japs soften, korean rude. if you look video about korean company in indo, you'll see how rude korean people can be
owh..... mystery unlocked...
maybe this is why Indo keeps postpone the KFX payment

maybe Indonesia do have the money, just kind a annoyed to those guys
i see i see
 

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