Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

[Lordimperator]

"POoR MaInTeNaNcE..."
Dude you are the mentor
Meanwhile at their homeland

ROK Navy Finds Major Defects on Three of its Type 214 Submarines - Naval News

The Republic of Korea Navy (ROK Navy) announced that defects were found in 3 of the 9 Son Won-il-class submarines, the South Korean variants of the Type 214, currently in active service.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Gary]

Racist maybe, but I concur we have poor business etiquette. Especially when it comes to KF-X.

 

[chibiyabi]

Racist maybe, but I concur we have poor business etiquette. Especially when it comes to KF-X.

i think its fair when we ask something to renegotiable, when the agreement seem to far from right for indonesian, 2 US Bio only for indonesian flag stamp. of course the stupidity from indosnesian side negotiator also involve. beside that the korean first move by hijack Mr. Uban team when negotiations process seem very poor ettique in doing bussiness ( not fair only when you get caught )

 

[Gary]

i think its fair when we ask something to renegotiable, when the agreement seem to far from right for indonesian, 2 US Bio only for indonesian flag stamp. of course the stupidity from indosnesian side negotiator also involve. beside that the korean first move by hijack Mr. Uban team when negotiations process seem very poor ettique in doing bussiness ( not fair only when you get caught )

$2B, a flag stamp and 50 state of the art 4.5 gen fighter. Fair enough.

For me the KFX and Sigma case is ze classic case of one administration trying to undo the doings of the administration before.

Proof me wrong.

 

[Anmdt]

Racist maybe, but I concur we have poor business etiquette. Especially when it comes to KF-X.

This doesn't only repel some possible major partnerships, also increases prices of the certain components. Companies start to bid higher than usual considering the some troubles they might face.
And this may push prices to be double folded even with simple electronics.. purely the purchase.

"POoR MaInTeNaNcE..."
Dude you are the mentor
Meanwhile at their homeland

ROK Navy Finds Major Defects on Three of its Type 214 Submarines - Naval News

The Republic of Korea Navy (ROK Navy) announced that defects were found in 3 of the 9 Son Won-il-class submarines, the South Korean variants of the Type 214, currently in active service.

www.navalnews.com

With a proper maintenance you can pin-point the error or malfunction and deliver the parts to the manufacturer. The manufacturers are pleased with such incidents they even give free spares, free maintenance supervision, in return, both to compensate and as a gesture of goodwill.

I suggest you to carefully read the article you have shared, the incident is about a part related to Siemens' AIP and power cables, not a Korean part. Moreover Type 214s of ROK are purely licence built nearly duplicate of the original design. Thus whatever goes wrong directly related to Germany. But, did we see ROK using political leverage and spreading rumor in regards of the subs, here?

 

[Gary]

$2B is purely for research cost only and one or two prototype plane(s). 50 jets is not included in that $2B. 50 jets will be in separated buying contract if things goes according to plan.

This's why KFX research project can't be paid with foreign loan, because KFX research project is not an acquisition project, but a research project.

My bad

So the correct one is $2B , a flag stamp and the right to manufacture 50 of those here. The same model we've been doing in DI ever since with 412, NC-212 and CN-235.

This doesn't only repel some possible major partnerships, also increases prices of the certain components. Companies start to bid higher than usual considering the some troubles they might face.
And this may push prices to be double folded even with simple electronics.. purely the purchase.


With a proper maintenance you can pin-point the error or malfunction and deliver the parts to the manufacturer. The manufacturers are pleased with such incidents they even give free spares, free maintenance supervision, in return, both to compensate and as a gesture of goodwill.

I suggest you to carefully read the article you have shared, the incident is about a part related to Siemens' AIP and power cables, not a Korean part. Moreover Type 214s of ROK are purely licence built nearly duplicate of the original design. Thus whatever goes wrong directly related to Germany. But, did we see ROK using political leverage and spreading rumor in regards of the subs, here?

I'm somewhat leaning to Mr.Moon, the Bogo's aren't the first submarine they build, they had built like 15+ submarines and continue to build newer ones.

Cmiiw, but don't many of the components (engine, sensors etc) are of our choosing, that includes the batteries. Once chosen, DSME assemble those for us. So I think the battery being weak is not DSME fault but the batteries OEM, or our own requirements stated in contracts.

If anything, cutting cost is what Indonesian officials do all the time,.

 

[Anmdt]

What you said is true only if both sides acknowledge there's indeed some problem in the product. If the seller side didn't want to admit there's problem in the product, they'll just accused the buyer side for being the source of the problem.

Looking at his response, they really want to maintained that clean image of "It's purely your fault and there's no problem in our products".

It is not about admitting, but making rumors about deficiency of a platform through to back channels to cover up of a mess actually stemming from something local (i am not really detailing stuff in here). All submarines, including even the ones built by Germany for Germany sustain some "problems" in first few years. This is not an iphone serial produced and checked in 10 mins for the defects, each construction of a submarine considered to be unique despite of sharing the same design and parts. There could be defects or issues in first few years or even during the acceptance tests, that needs to be pin-pointed (not the source but the problem) and well studied by the operator since the builder has their hands off the submarine after the delivery. This is another reason why the warranty term (usually 2-3 years) exists.

@AlphaMike has also pointed another factor, if an item of operator's pick is not meeting the requirements, this is not matter of the builder but the operator who purely followed some fancy salesman, or not even the operator here but the funder of the project.

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547469277133144064

The timing is not good.
Just few weeks from Boramae's first flight and KM SAM blk 2 rumor. Do some people (or faction) in Korea try to erase Indonesia as their weapons market?

 

[NEKO]

The timing is not good.
Just few weeks from Boramae's first flight and KM SAM blk 2 rumor. Do some people (or faction) in Korea try to erase Indonesia as their weapons market?

Maybe its Japanese turn to enter Indonesian market.

 

[Umigami]

Maybe its Japanese turn to enter Indonesian market.

I don't think Japanese interested to invite Indonesia into their Shinshin program.

 

[NEKO]

I don't think Japanese interested to invite Indonesia into their Shinshin program.

Well.

Any way how's the negotiation for 30FFM?

 

[Madokafc]

I am just getting bored with the recent drama with Korean flavor, Indonesian Navy is not your neighbor newbie when we are talking about Submarine operation and maintenance, we are doing that from 1960 and got a load of technical support, experience and what to do and not to do list and until last year we are actually got zero accident in Submarine operation for almost six decades with more than 14 example we ever had (12 whiskey and two Cakra class). Indonesian would prefer to retire the Submarine completely compared to push them down with certain high risk to the crew.

 

[Madokafc]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547469277133144064

Hell, South Korean better to not let him be part of customer support and services team at all. Such blame gaming words is too childis from the supposed citizen of technology Apt country like South Korea. Instead he should show more cooperative attitude and urging for the establishment of joint investigation team to find diagnosis for the current problem of Indonesian Submarine fleets of South Korean Made and recommended more constructive suggestion and idea.

 

[Lordimperator]

I don't think Japanese interested to invite Indonesia into their Shinshin program.

6th gen fighter?

Well.

Any way how's the for 30 FFM

Dunno,

 

[Umigami]

6th gen fighter?

Dunno,

The only posibility we got out from KFX are either we walk out or got kicked out because of payment. Do you think Japanese would be interested to bunch of people like that?

 

[NEKO]

View attachment 46308
I am just getting bored with the recent drama with Korean flavor, Indonesian Navy is not your neighbor newbie when we are talking about Submarine operation and maintenance, we are doing that from 1960 and got a load of technical support, experience and what to do and not to do list and until last year we are actually got zero accident in Submarine operation for almost six decades with more than 14 example we ever had (12 whiskey and two Cakra class). Indonesian would prefer to retire the Submarine completely compared to push them down with certain high risk to the crew.

One thing for sure is that we need new submarine ASAP to reach MEF target and to replace KRI Cakra, the older the submarine the more problem she have and prone to accident. We won't know the exact reasons about the reluctance of continuing submarine deal with South Korea, but if we want to cancel the deal then do it cleanly.


All this unnecessary political drama and it is our sailor that is risking their life.

 

[satria]

RIMPAC 2022: Sniper Range Live Fire​

MARINE CORPS BASE HAWAII (July 9, 2022) U.S. Marines, Australian Army and Indonesian Marines conducted a sniper live fire exercise during Rim of the Pacific (RIMPAC) 2022. The training activity was led by Australian Army snipers from 2nd Battalion, the Royal Australian Regiment on a range at Marine Corps Base Hawaii. Twenty-six nations, 38 ships, four submarines, more than 170 aircraft and 25,000 personnel are participating in RIMPAC from June 29 to Aug. 4 in and around the Hawaiian Islands and Southern California. The world's largest international maritime exercise, RIMPAC provides a unique training opportunity while fostering and sustaining cooperative relationships among participants critical to ensuring the safety of sea lanes and security on the world's oceans. RIMPAC 2022 is the 28th exercise in the series that began in 1971. (Video by Royal Australian Navy Leading Seaman Jarrod Mulvihill)

 

[Windchime]

Maybe its Japanese turn to enter Indonesian market.

Considering how the Japanese dealt with the Australian submarine bid, I'm not so sure if the Indonesian side would be that appeased.

Though since the Indonesians are already in talks with them regarding 30FFM and seems quite impressed, maybe they indeed have changed their attitude a bit after the failed bid.

I don't think Japanese interested to invite Indonesia into their Shinshin program.

Shinshin is the name given to ATD-X program, a program purely meant for technology demonstration. Their next generation fighter program is called the F-X.

And no, they don't seem to be interested with getting any other Asian nation involved in their program for obvious reasons, + UK is also deeply involved, and the ties are only getting stronger it seems.

Hell, South Korean better to not let him be part of customer support and services team at all. Such blame gaming words is too childis from the supposed citizen of technology Apt country like South Korea. Instead he should show more cooperative attitude and urging for the establishment of joint investigation team to find diagnosis for the current problem of Indonesian Submarine fleets of South Korean Made and recommended more constructive suggestion and idea.

Fortunately he is not involved with anything or anyone official, neither DSME nor the Korean gov in any meaningful way nowadays. He is a famous figure among military enthusiasts and people in the industry, sure, but his views at least don't reflect on anything official.

 

[Windchime]

Btw I've forgot to introduce myself, hello. I've been quite interested in the matter surrounding the Indonesian submarine program and KF-X/IF-X for quite a while.

Since there seems to be so many mis- and even disinformation surrounding these matters, it would be quite helpful if I could get some questions answered by Indonesians, if you guys are okay with.(I've unfortunately only got so far with searching keywords translated by google translator) I mainly have 3 questions.

1. What are the problems exactly, that TNI-AL have identified regarding the overhauled 209s and Nagapasa class? According to almost every Indonesians I've seen in the net, the problems seem quite severe.

2. When were those problems identified? There's 2 years of gap between KRI Nagapasa's commissioning and the signing of the deal for the second batch. I don't think a major defect could be left unspotted for 2 or more years in service or that TNI-AL would tolerate to accept 2 additional ships in class with known defects after KRI Nagapasa.

3. Is it true that the major factor behind recent hinderances in these two major deals are rather political? It has been a widespread belief within the Korean net that the political rivalry between Jokowi and Prabowo has been the key in understanding the turbulences, even more so than the Covid. How true is that?

Thanks in advance and feel free to ask me questions as well. I'd like to exchange some information so that we get a more clear picture.

Cheers

 

[chibiyabi]

My bad

So the correct one is $2B , a flag stamp and the right to manufacture 50 of those here. The same model we've been doing in DI ever since with 412, NC-212 and CN-235.



I'm somewhat leaning to Mr.Moon, the Bogo's aren't the first submarine they build, they had built like 15+ submarines and continue to build newer ones.

Cmiiw, but don't many of the components (engine, sensors etc) are of our choosing, that includes the batteries. Once chosen, DSME assemble those for us. So I think the battery being weak is not DSME fault but the batteries OEM, or our own requirements stated in contracts.

If anything, cutting cost is what Indonesian officials do all the time,.

nope, a whole different league with Mr. Habibies NC212 CN 235, in IFX we only have right to assembly the planes we purchase plus 1 prototype, we do not have the rights like the Habibies planes to sell n manufacture, and of course we must pay the 50s planned to purchase

Btw I've forgot to introduce myself, hello. I've been quite interested in thd matter surrounding the Indonesian submarine program and KF-X/IF-X for auite a while.

Since there seems to be so many mis- and even disinformation surrounding these matters, it would be quite helpful if I could get some questions answered by Indonesians, if you guys are okay with.(I've unfortunately only got so far with searching keywords translated by google translator) I mainly have 3 questions.

1. What are the problems exactly, that TNI-AL have identified regarding the overhauled 209s and Nagapasa class? According to almost every Indonesians I've seen in the net, the problems seem quite severe.

2. When were those problems identified? There's 2 years of gap between KRI Nagapasa's comissioning and the signing of the deal for the second batch. I don't think a major defect could be left unspotted for 2 or more years in service or that TNI-AL would tolerate to accept 2 additional ships in class with known defects after KRI Nagapasa.

3. Is it true that the major factor behind recent hinderances in these two major deals are rather political? It has been a widespread belief within the Korean net that the political rivalry between Jokowi and Prabowo has been the key in understanding the turbulances, even more so than the Covid. How true is that?

Thanks in advance and feel free to ask me qhestions as well. I'd like to exchange some information so that we get a more clear picture.

Cheers

hello, wellcome to the thread

we all here also guess whats are the problem, but in online media, nagapasa first identified defect is the battery system. and maybe also more major defects found we can see the 3 subs until now never conduct some practise that should be done by a brand new submarine.
And for the third questions i think there are alots of misunderstanding regarding relationship between them, in this cabinet one of the best perform in his position is Prabowo, he work fast and can translate what jokowi wants, for example, the acqusitions of italian fregat and the french fighter