TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Afif]

Clearly your AK brain has comprehension issues. I said bring them to Turkey, where you can vet, keep tabs, protect those involved in and the project more safely.

Your outsourcing parts of the project to a country that has 0 stake in it and technologically behind you, is known for stealing, leaking such projects.

Don't be suprised in the future when Pakistani tweeter handles are leaking the project details bragging how they built the "TPF-X"



I had to sign an NDA i wont share anything I see, learn or "hear" inside the compound, provide whole sülale history for simply walking inside a well known arms manufacturer.

I know of such arrangement hence asked to confirm but ummah lovers here are too brain dead to understand.

If people are leaking or providing this much exposure at this stage then you figure the rest, it isnt vital enough for them on a personal level, imagine when they are offered bags of dollars and free holidays.



Not worried about embargoes since Pakistan will never be a part of the project in a significant way and likely to trapped by China and the Gulf by the time TF-X realises.

What I am worried about is security and loss of knowledge which could have been passed down to Turkish engineers.

The guy is clearly clever academically, I had a chance to review some of his work and blogs. In his blog he states, paraphrasing here.

Pakistan can not build AZM FGFA but can use the knowledge gained from TF-X too build a loyal wingman style drone.

Clearly a sunk cost.

I understand Qatar (high skiled, lots of money), I understand Malaysia (jumping stone to Asia) I don't understand what we get from Pakistan.



Ask those foreign engineers in America how easy it is for them to move around jobs, to another country, outside Western sphere. You will have your answer.

They are invested to the companies and more importantly to America.

Hi! this is my first post in defencehub. Although this section specifically about tfx mmu and the trainer program only, but i think a brief overview on turkey pakistan strategic relationship would be okay. In term of foreign policy and pursuing national interest , it is a long term investment in the mutual benefits for both countries.

Of course, turkish national interest in qatar, malesyia, Tunisia, libya and central asian turkic countries are obvious in the present and in the long term future considerations. But in case of pakistan, it may not be that obvious in the short term because of it's current economical, technological, educational and cultural backwardness.

However, 20 30 years in the future these situations are likely to change. And turkey has the potential to contribute to that kind of change in the long term as it is doing now in poor african countries by investing in educational and public institutions. So given the big population, pakistan has the potential for becoming a big economy in long term future. and of course, it's geostrategic location in East Asia is a good importance to the world next super power china in term of the trade and the new silk road initiative. As i believe, it can be the same to turkey in the long term future. Other than that, in term of military and security cooperation pakistan can be a big and long term strategic buyer of turkish weapons. I think it can be safely predicted that, in 2030s Pakistani economy will be able to support costly but the significant procurement of tfx and other similer strategic weapons systems.

And also turkey can significantly benefit from Pakistan in case of giant future defence programs. For example if turkey want to procure and devolop nuclear fast attack submarine after the milden project completed and I think is very likely in 2040s in order to compete with other world class navies in blue water, it can have critical cooperation on potential nuclear reactor with pakistan. Maybe, it will be a joint project for both countries. Or for example, turkey may go for procuring the hypersonic boost glide capability in late 2020s or in early 2030s, then it can have technological cooperation with pakistan on booster as it has shaheen siries MRBM now. And it is also likely that, they will have ICBM with MRVs at that time.

And last but not the least, if turkey ever want to procure 'THE SPECIAL CAPABILITY' that only israel has in the region it has to do it fast and swiftly. And it can only be done (in a very short time) with 'unofficial' but significant cooperation on the 'SUBJECT' as they (pakistan) have ready made design and technology for both the miniaturized warhead and delivery system. Now of course, in 2022 this kind of cooperation may sound unrealistic, but if turkey have the long term strategic political, economical and military cooperation with pakistan then I believe, in the next 20 or 30 years this kind of cooperation and procurement will be possible as then the world order will become much more unipolar and turkey and pakistan will be much more economically and militarily stronger and mature enough to handle any kind of western pressure or threat.

After all, If pakistan can become advanced and civilized as turkey the first and biggest beneficial of that will turkey and pakistan themselves. So I don't think it has something to do with so called 'ummah mentality' or any kind of cheap political ideology. The simple fact is, no nation stand along in the broader geostrategic sense! Every nation has it's cultural partner, like turkey and azerbaijan. And it has it's broader civilizational partner for the greater geopolitical and geostrategic partnership. look at italy and spain for example! They have a different cultures than the Scandinavian countries but they all belong to broader western civilization and all has some core shared values. The same is true with turkey, after all, it is belong to the greater islamic civilization. Don't get me wrong! Of course I am not calling for an ottoman empire or a 'caliphate' in the 21th century! All I am saying is, we can have our borders, we can have our cultural and linguistic differences but it is still possible....but necessary to have some shared core values ( to grow and mature ) like the west does. Which can be the foundation (in the broader sense) of mutual cooperation, benefits and help in the economical, technological and military domains. And I don't see any backwardness in this.

 

[Afif]

Hopefully Bangladesh will also become East pakistan again.

What is that supposed to mean? I didn't say anything offensive to any person or any national identity!

 

[what]

stick to the topic @fire starter or else consequences will follow

 

[Oublious]

Calling somebody you don't now thief is the lowest bs you can fart on the forum . If yougo watch video of LM or Raytheon you will see that are Latina Americans to Asian working on the projects. Most of the employees engineer or technicians doesn't matter, ther origin country do not have that technology, are they thief?

Some engineering work is outsourced to a Brasilian company for the Hurjet, who give you the warrant that they won't steal or use the data of Hurjet?

The Pakistani guy can say fak you, and go work for LM. Be Happy that somebody is happy to work on our project. Like ther are Turkish engineers who do that work? We don't have that level technology for now, and like Turkish engineers with no experiences would not solve the problem.

 

[Oublious]

Experienced engineer who have worked for big companies in US is coming to Turkey and going to steal information .

 

[what]

Your nationalism goes too far if you think hiring foreign engineers that are badly needed for a local TAI office is something bad.

Time for a reality check, TAI is not stupid, they know what they are doing. As the CEO as stated numerous times, the core people are Turkish, and many foreigners are involved in the development of smaller projects with limited scopes. They dont necessarily see the big picture, i.e. everything in the project.

Are we to believe that companies with greater Intellectual Properties and bigger projects that are hiring talented engineers are mistaken? Lockheed, Boeing, Airbus or BAE have been doing this for decades, its called internationalization. It lowers the costs of the project, it brings in badly needed well-educated people. In short its good for the project and Turkey.

 

[Manomed]

Your nationalism goes too far if you think hiring foreign engineers that are badly needed for a local TAI office is something bad.

Time for a reality check, TAI is not stupid, they know what they are doing. As the CEO as stated numerous times, the core people are Turkish, and many foreigners are involved in the development of smaller projects with limited scopes. They dont necessarily see the big picture, i.e. everything in the project.

Are we to believe that companies with greater Intellectual Properties and bigger projects that are hiring talented engineers are mistaken? Lockheed, Boeing, Airbus or BAE have been doing this for decades, its called internationalization. It lowers the costs of the project, it brings in badly needed well-educated people. In short its good for the project and Turkey.

You are refusing to understand what we said HE IS LITERALLY GIVING OUT THE INFORMATION ABOUT TFX FFS He literally states where he is working what he is doing. Is this normal for you?????? There is something called "Security details"

 

[Nilgiri]

Guys and gals,

all that had posts deleted and/or edited and got warnings etc....

Please read the rules and follow them.

Be respectful, use common decent sense.

Dont start posts with things like "X are most traitorous people on earth"..... when you are long term member here already and know better than to post crap like that.

Stop to think about golden rule (treat others as you would like to be treated yourself) and shoe on the other foot and what you would do if someone called you/yours like that. Would you report that post?

If so, dont be hypocrite and do it towards another.

 

[Huelague]

You are refusing to understand what we said HE IS LITERALLY GIVING OUT THE INFORMATION ABOUT TFX FFS He literally states where he is working what he is doing. Is this normal for you?????? There is something called "Security details"

Which information he gives out exactly?

 

[Manomed]

Which information he gives out exactly?

What parts he is working+His position try to do this in BAE-Raytheon-Lockheed they will kick you out of the firm so hard that you won't notice it.

Most of you guys doesn't seem to care about secrecy and security

@Anmdt did give the best answer but seems like none of you read it.

 

[Huelague]

What parts he is working+His position try to do this in BAE-Raytheon-Lockheed they will kick you out of the firm so hard that you won't notice it.

Most of you guys doesn't seem to care about secrecy and security

@Anmdt did give the best answer but seems like none of you read it.

@Anmdt said, their is security breach. But you dont know his (Pakistani) contract, that could prohibit to talk about his position. Dont you.

 

[TechNamu]

Fhe first prototype (P1) aircraft, which is under production within the scope of the HÜRJET Program, will perform the first flight in December 2022,

and the second prototype and the first flight will be performed on March 18, 2023.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551950288197763072

Mete Yarar in his recent YouTube video says Hurjet's engines will be integrated into a prototype by the end of the month

Anyway, back to the topic

This is probably the most cruical updates. It could be different for each project, but the first flight usually takes in place about 10 months after the rollout of the first aircraft IF the engieers don't pick up any critical error during the ground testing phase. There is always an exception for every rule and the schedules could be shorten or delayed for various reasons, but the testing procedure has been pretty standardized for safety of pilots and success of the project.

For instance, LM F-35A took its her initial flight in December, 2006 after about 10 months the first prototype was rolled out in February 2006. Assembly of the first prototype of KAI T-50 was finalised in September, 2001 and the AJT made its maiden flight in August, 2002.

If we assume the first prototype of Hurjet is getting assembled by the end of August, 2022, we should normally expect Hurjet to conduct its inaugural flight around by June, 2023.

Again, It could take a lot less time if the company decides to skip some testings and replace them with digital simulation, but at this stage, Hurjet making its inaugural flight in December, 2022 seems improbable and the Turkish AJT of flying in the sky by March, 2023 is also doubtful.

However, TAI may have confidential information that has not been shared with the journalists nor the general public and I am sure a company reputable as TAI will do anything to keep up with the promised project schedule which seems very, very tight.

 

[Zafer]

Anyway, back to the topic

This is probably the most cruical updates. It could be different for each project, but the first flight usually takes in place about 10 months after the rollout of the first aircraft IF the engieers don't pick up any critical error during the ground testing phase. There is always an exception for every rule and the schedules could be shorten or delayed for various reasons, but the testing procedure has been pretty standardized for safety of pilots and success of the project.

For instance, LM F-35A took its her initial flight in December, 2006 after about 10 months the first prototype was rolled out in February 2006. Assembly of the first prototype of KAI T-50 was finalised in September, 2001 and the AJT made its maiden flight in August, 2002.

If we assume the first prototype of Hurjet is getting assembled by the end of August, 2022, we should normally expect Hurjet to conduct its inaugural flight around by June, 2023.

Again, It could take a lot less time if the company decides to skip some testings and replace them with digital simulation, but at this stage, Hurjet making its inaugural flight in December, 2022 seems improbable and the Turkish AJT of flying in the sky by March, 2023 is also doubtful.

However, TAI may have confidential information that has not been shared with the journalists nor the general public and I am sure a company reputable as TAI will do anything to keep up with the promised project schedule which seems very, very tight.

The examples of 17 to 21 years earlier is not the norm of 2023.

 

[Ryder]

In always for getting the best engineers no matter where they come from.

But outsourcing is bad news. Boeing shit quality nowadays not just due to sjw crap and affirmative action but also outsourcing to other countries.

Hence why the 737 max is having so many problems that has already led to two tragic crashes.

Military stuff nowadays getting outsourced means lots of nations will have their own defence tech compromised.

Lets be honest if its Pakistan lots of leaks will happen.

 

[TechNamu]

The examples of 17 to 21 years earlier is not the norm of 2023.

Why? Because you believe the most recent example, KF-21 which made its initial flight in 2022, is the new standard and an aircraft of taking about 15 months from rollout to maiden flight is "norm"? I was trying to give Turkish some hope that It could rather be done in about 10 months, but I guess you prefer Hurjet to make an inaugural flight in 2024 instead.

 

[Saithan]

This is all speculation. As long as we get progress reports. And on schedule with some leeway we should be happy.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555092673488371713

mr. Aksit saying we’ve reached the tech level to be able to produce the engine for TFX.

Guess next step is make a charter on everything to start making these engines.

 

[Lool]

This is all speculation. As long as we get progress reports. And on schedule with some leeway we should be happy.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555092673488371713

mr. Aksit saying we’ve reached the tech level to be able to produce the engine for TFX.

Guess next step is make a charter on everything to start making these engines.

This actually co-incides with Temil Kotil's statements regarding the fact that the TFX will fly with a national engine in 2028 as well as the fact that he said that the initial studies of a domestic engine have been finished; which may indicate that the next phase may be prototype production

It seems that there is an engine development program going on behind the scenes which may also indicate that Kale and RR couldnt achieve a deal fast enough

 

[Afif]

This actually co-incides with Temil Kotil's statements regarding the fact that the TFX will fly with a national engine in 2028 as well as the fact that he said that the initial studies of a domestic engine have been finished; which may indicate that the next phase may be prototype production

It seems that there is an engine development program going on behind the scenes which may also indicate that Kale and RR couldnt achieve a deal fast enough

What Temil kotil says is that, the tr motor has the preliminary design of the engine. And that mean the most important phase before the prototype production has yet to be done, which is critical design review. One or two prototype can be expected in 2025/26 timeline. In addition to that they are propably going to scrap the deal with rolls royce as there is uncertainties over technology transfer. I would be happy but very surprised if that deal go through!

 

[what]

@what also stop using your admin powers whenever someone points out something that you don't like alright this place isn't your power fantasy forum. You even deleted the comments that were right about the subject I will go to the head admins If you don't stop acting like this.

Go ahead, because most of the comments on the last pages were deleted by one of the heads of this forum. And if you post off topic or racist stuff, be glad if it was just deleted.

 

[Fighter_35]

how can people say that an office , which will take a critical role in tfx fighter it seems, in Pakistan si not a security risk for our country??
We are not talking about a pakistani engineer who will work in Tusas ANKARA where he can not take critical informations out of the country !!
We should get experienced engineers in our project, but that does not mean that we should recruit them in another countries for our crtical projects!! especially in Pakistan where any chinese spy can get access!!
Additionally, why qatar university students get right to make apprenticeship at TUSAS?? where they cen release some critical informations outside of company!!