TR Navy Turkish Navy|News & Discussions

[TheInsider]

The main logic is to get 4 ships for a scrap price of 100 million and upgrade them extensively. If you throw 70-100 million $ for each ship Turkish industry can change nearly every subsystem of the ship with a national equivalent. It will become something like an Atak chopper. The total price will become something like 125 million $ it will be cheaper than the half price of a new I-class frigate. Even then I'm supporting I class because we can use I class for the next 40 years we will retire Type 23T in 15 years.

A corvette fleet of 4x Ada Class Milgems and 6x Hisar Class OPVs (replacing Burak class one by one) are more than enough for our needs. We can upgrade Milgems with Hisar air defense missiles and new sonar systems like DÜFAS VDS. +4 I class will add a good capability for our frigate fleet. 8 I class with Cenk-S AESA and Siper capability will be a big force multiplier. If we make additional plans for the +4 I class today we can build 8 ships in 5 years.

Corvette Fleet
4x upgraded Ada class corvettes
6x Hisar class OPVs (2023-?)

Frigate Fleet
4x I class block I frigates (2023-2026)
4x I class block II frigates (2026-2028 increased national contribution, installation of some of the subsystem like MIDLAS block 2, Roketsan Levent/Aselsan Gökdeniz-ER, MKE 20mm CIWS, Nazar Lite etc )
4x upgraded Barbaros class (2023-2025)
4x Gabya class

Destroyer Fleet
1x TF-2000 in trials. (2028)

Lightly upgraded Gabyas will be retired and kept for spares
Yavuz class frigates will be retired and put on reserve

This is a really good fleet structure that can be achieved before 2030 without many hurdles. Every money we put on Type 2023 is money taken away from our own defense industry.

 

[Cypro]

The main logic is to get 4 ships for a scrap price of 100 million and upgrade them extensively. If you throw 70-100 million $ for each ship Turkish industry can change nearly every subsystem of the ship with a national equivalent. It will become something like an Atak chopper. The total price will become something like 125 million $ it will be cheaper than the half price of a new I-class frigate. Even then I'm supporting I class because we can use I class for the next 40 years we will retire Type 23T in 15 years.

A corvette fleet of 4x Ada Class Milgems and 6x Hisar Class OPVs (replacing Burak class one by one) are more than enough for our needs. We can upgrade Milgems with Hisar air defense missiles and new sonar systems like DÜFAS VDS. +4 I class will add a good capability for our frigate fleet. 8 I class with Cenk-S AESA and Siper capability will be a big force multiplier. If we make additional plans for the +4 I class today we can build 8 ships in 5 years.

Corvette Fleet
4x upgraded Ada class corvettes
6x Hisar class OPVs (2023-?)

Frigate Fleet
4x I class block I frigates (2023-2026)
4x I class block II frigates (2026-2028 increased national contribution, installation of some of the subsystem like MIDLAS block 2, Roketsan Levent/Aselsan Gökdeniz-ER, MKE 20mm CIWS, Nazar Lite etc )
4x upgraded Barbaros class (2023-2025)
4x Gabya class

Destroyer Fleet
1x TF-2000 in trials. (2028)

Lightly upgraded Gabyas will be retired and kept for spares
Yavuz class frigates will be retired and put on reserve

This is a really good fleet structure that can be achieved before 2030 without many hurdles. Every money we put on Type 2023 is money taken away from our own defense industry.

Exactly... and even if you change everything on it (thinking Type 23), it is still a 30 year old metal with 30 year old design working with unfamiliar engine.. I bet even the screws are alien.. you even need to change whole cables inside.. but yes if they cost $25 million each or included in Eurofighter deal for free! then ok.. we will see

 

[Anmdt]

Exactly... and even if you change everything on it (thinking Type 23), it is still a 30 year old metal with 30 year old design working with unfamiliar engine.. I bet even the screws are alien.. you even need to change whole cables inside.. but yes if they cost $25 million each or included in Eurofighter deal for free! then ok.. we will see

Ship of Theseus.

 

[dBSPL]

Independently of the MİLGEM program, an alternative warship program in the range of 4-5 thousand displacement could have been initiated by the private sector, but this possibility has apparently never been included in the equation, despite the fact that some private shipyards are carrying out important work in this field, either in their design offices or with contracted design offices.

Hull equipment manufacturing and assembly: excluding machinery and propulsion system assembly, and including panel and block fabrication, piping and cabling, living quarters and deck works, air conditioning, blasting and painting works and related inventory works, the delivery could be around 25-30 million per ship. As an estimate, with private sector contracting, a production cost target of around 55-60 million dollars, including the propulsion system and classification, can be achieved within the shipyard's profit margin. These ships can be produced with a useful life of 40 years and can serve for at least 20 years without mid-life modernization. The figures I have speculated on are quite extravagant and estimated. With a detailed calculation, it may be possible to reach a lower cost range. The main cost items here (apart from the propulsion system) will be electronic systems and weapon configurations suitable for naval platforms.

Maybe it can save 2-3 years. But in the end the ships have +20 years of service record, and in this case it is necessary to repeat the question at the beginning of my post: We could have started such a project 2-3 years ago.

As like:
-A frigate program run by the private shipyards
-MILGEM
-and beyond MILGEM, destroyer programs.

 

[Nutuk]

Dumbest thing to do to buy those old ships, ultimate crap

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1617877984324747265

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1617878051681112066

 

[Yasar_TR]

Dumbest thing to do to buy those old ships, ultimate crap

I would like to ask you Two questions. But please answer without preconceptions but with logic only.
1. If UK gave us those 4 ships for free as part of the Typhoon and Engine deal like a sweetener; should we accept them or decline?
2. Same as above but if they had a price tag of 25 million dollar each?

 

[BalkanTurk90]

I would like to ask you Two questions. But please answer without preconceptions but with logic only.
1. If UK gave us those 4 ships for free as part of the Typhoon and Engine deal like a sweetener; should we accept them or decline?
2. Same as above but if they had a price tag of 25 million dollar each?

-- U ask someone else but i would like to give my answer.
1- If UK gives 4 ships for free (unlikely) than those are old warships build for needs of another navy and should heavy upgraded with Turkish systems and weapobs and price will be at least 140 million per ship while can stay in service for another 20 years at best .
2- Why to spend 150 for old warship (20 years service ) When we can build brand new 300 million and serve for 40 years.
( From UK i would take only those 14 C130J and nothing else )

 

[Khagan1923]

Evaluating it means you are doing your job.
Doesn’t mean there is interest.
Most likely the offer came from the Brits and the Navy wants to do its due diligence.

 

[Ecderha]

Dumbest thing to do to buy those old ships, ultimate crap

It is look like Turkiye have many surplus money.
Question arise: How to spend this money?

From above gossips seems that they spending money for old junks.
- Because they are cheap.
- Old junks are not made according to Turkiye navy doctrine/need.
- Old junks need more money to upgrade them
- Time is factor here. Turkiye will have to spend time for upgrading, training crews etc.

But main question remain:
Why we spending our money abroad for junks?
Why we are not opening new project with this money?
What we gain from this move?

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618309292624613376

Pirireis and Erdek (mine hunter)

 

[Nutuk]

I would like to ask you Two questions. But please answer without preconceptions but with logic only.
1. If UK gave us those 4 ships for free as part of the Typhoon and Engine deal like a sweetener; should we accept them or decline?
2. Same as above but if they had a price tag of 25 million dollar each?

1) Do you know what ruined the Turkish defense industry in the 50'ties when entering Nato? Free materials (nothing is for free, just a means to destroy your defense industry and enslave you)

2) The ships have to be modernized to fit Turkish doctrine, Genesis advent combat management upgrade at least. Taking used ships in the past is what we did, we had no own made ships, we had no exports and no alternatives. So is it worth to destroy your own shipping industry nowadays? While we try to export our own ships we gonna import British ships? Sounds like a bullet in our own leg.

 

[Yasar_TR]

1) Do you know what ruined the Turkish defense industry in the 50'ties when entering Nato? Free materials (nothing is for free, just a means to destroy your defense industry and enslave you)

2) The ships have to be modernized to fit Turkish doctrine, Genesis advent combat management upgrade at least. Taking used ships in the past is what we did, we had no own made ships, we had no exports and no alternatives. So is it worth to destroy your own shipping industry nowadays? While we try to export our own ships we gonna import British ships? Sounds like a bullet in our own leg.

I fully agree with everything you have written here. You have hit the nail on the head.
But with the hat of a “Think Tank Analyst” I was expecting from you a bit more insight in to our current situation and the need for air defence frigates versus financial constraints plus platforms that need to be retired etc etc explained.
In short, something along the lines of :
How much money it would cost to refurbish the 4 x Type23 frigates to bring them to Turkish Naval Standards. Whether it is really worth it to spend all that money for modernisation, to bring somewhat fairly outdated ships in to operational condition, to replace 4 x Yavuz and/or 4x Gabya Class that really ought to be retired.
The new 4 x I-Class ships not being ready in full force until 2026 causing a weakness in our fleet deployment and this situation not quite meeting the demands of the Navy with TCG Anadolu joining the fleet soon.

Isn‘t it really the current administration’s fault that the faster ship building programs and the channelling the monies needed to finish those programs haven’t materialised and caused the excessive delays in Milgem Corvettes, I-Class frigates and the TF2000 destroyer programs?

 

[Zafer]

I fully agree with everything you have written here. You have hit the nail on the head.
But with the hat of a “Think Tank Analyst” I was expecting from you a bit more insight in to our current situation and the need for air defence frigates versus financial constraints plus platforms that need to be retired etc etc explained.
In short, something along the lines of :
How much money it would cost to refurbish the 4 x Type23 frigates to bring them to Turkish Naval Standards. Whether it is really worth it to spend all that money for modernisation, to bring somewhat fairly outdated ships in to operational condition, to replace 4 x Yavuz and/or 4x Gabya Class that really ought to be retired.
The new 4 x I-Class ships not being ready in full force until 2026 causing a weakness in our fleet deployment and this situation not quite meeting the demands of the Navy with TCG Anadolu joining the fleet soon.

Isn‘t it really the current administration’s fault that the faster ship building programs and the channelling the monies needed to finish those programs haven’t materialised and caused the excessive delays in Milgem Corvettes, I-Class frigates and the TF2000 destroyer programs?

Like money would solve all the problems!

 

[Fairon]

I fully agree with everything you have written here. You have hit the nail on the head.
But with the hat of a “Think Tank Analyst” I was expecting from you a bit more insight in to our current situation and the need for air defence frigates versus financial constraints plus platforms that need to be retired etc etc explained.
In short, something along the lines of :
How much money it would cost to refurbish the 4 x Type23 frigates to bring them to Turkish Naval Standards. Whether it is really worth it to spend all that money for modernisation, to bring somewhat fairly outdated ships in to operational condition, to replace 4 x Yavuz and/or 4x Gabya Class that really ought to be retired.
The new 4 x I-Class ships not being ready in full force until 2026 causing a weakness in our fleet deployment and this situation not quite meeting the demands of the Navy with TCG Anadolu joining the fleet soon.

Isn‘t it really the current administration’s fault that the faster ship building programs and the channelling the monies needed to finish those programs haven’t materialised and caused the excessive delays in Milgem Corvettes, I-Class frigates and the TF2000 destroyer programs?

There is another problem with getting Type 23's. As Mr. Kozan mentions, we are offering ships with the same class to the other countries. We are entering tenders etc and getting Type 23's will cause an idea that we are not trusting our shipbuilding industry and our ships.(our this will be used against us by our rivals in the tenders)

This is different than getting Eurofighters as we don't have an equivalent aircraft and MMU is a project and not an end product. We do have equivalent ships to offer to countries and getting Type 23's instead of building our own will cause a negative effect on our future sales.

Like money would solve all the problems!

It will fix a lot of our problems though. Lots of our problems with the naval acquirements are monetary at the moment. We don't have the necessary budget to order all the ships we need.

 

[Nutuk]

Naval operational needs do not fall from the sky. Pretending that Type-23's are suddenly urgent need is just silly.

We have enough capacity to build ships, we are building ships for Pakistan, Ukraine but do not have room to build ships for our own navy? Bogus.

Yes we did have delays due to embargoes, but now we finally solved the embargo issues and manage to build the I-class with indigenous replacements we want to fall back to dependence (this time to the Brits). What kind of sane person would take such a decission?

 

[Zafer]

36 months to build a ship that has already been built once before is a little too long. They should find a way to squeeze time. Same for other serial production projects.

 

[Anmdt]

36 months to build a ship that has already been built once before is a little too long. They should find a way to squeeze time. Same for other serial production projects.

*30 months per ship
Could be as short as 24 months per ship.

 

[Zafer]

*30 months per ship
Could be as short as 24 months per ship.

That's more like it.

 

[babayetu]

Problem with TN is, TN has a ship it does not need or cant fully utilise that is TCG Anadolu maybe even TCG Bayraktar, TCG Sancaktar. it is purely a political project tbh, like all autocrats he likes big things, big bridge, big shopping malls, big mosques, at this point navy does not have a single air defense destroyer it even does not have a really armed 4500-5000t multipurpose frigate the most capable we have 4x gabya class and modernized meko track2s the youngest is 27 they can barely handle themselves...

We did not need TCG Anadolu it is stupidly useless at this point wasted so much time too, it should have waited until we have first tf-2000 in the navy at least. We could have ordered 4-6x more ada-class, should of design a class between istif and tf-2000 shoulda focus on subsystems earlier like mildas, hisar quad pack, cenk-s...
It is better to sell the tcg anadolu then buying type 23's really. We should sell the anadolu to Egypt )) They are buying anything anyways i don't think they know what they are doing not gonna be threat to us anyway...