TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Saithan]

I think Things aren't going as expected with UK. The contribution of BAE in TFX Phase-1 was very mediocre with mostly inexperienced engineers and Tusaş complained about this situation a few times. As for engine to be likely developed with RR, RR put strong cards on table both in terms of license rights and production since they feel that Turkiye don't have an alternative way out of their offer. Also, Some reluctant statements by Turkish officials regarding possible deal with BAE for TFX Phase-2 were reflected in the press. Turkiye's cooperation offers for Tempest were also rejected by UK. The withdrawal of British royal air force which was said to join the last AnatolianEagle exercise also created question marks. Apart from this, there is a serious political confrontation and embargo from the West in almost every field, be them enlargement of NATO, terror operations or Russia/Ukraine war. Considering these conditions, TEI/TrMotor must have been given an unofficial development task for Tf35K engine as a precautionary measure. If everything was fine with the RR, no one would work with 300 engineers on the design of the engine on an engineer/day basis. RR's capability is indisputable but we all know what we are going to face when it comes to matters related with Turkiye bro.

AI-25TLT(Black Sea Shield - turbofan) The AI-25TLT licence-built by Turkish-Ukrainian joint venture BSS based in Istanbul for the Bayraktar MIUS[4]

I know wiki isn't reliable source, but I was thinking that continuing with Ukrainian design company is for the sake of the unmanned vehicles potentially crossover to jets if necessary.

AI-25 has been used for several trainer jets and is a very well tested engine, so having it license produced in Turkey (like China) would be very good for us. even if it says license built. I'm not sure it's being license built in Turkey or just assembled, as I don't think we know how much of the engine parts are produced domestically.

I don't think we'll get anything worthwhile cooperating with RR, as they're there to keep the R&D process at a certain pace, which could ultimately mean slowing us down. Remember that US-Brit doctrin is ensuring technological superiority of their allies, e.g. Israel and if they can't destroy R&D they can slow it down and hope to sabotage it through delays and political strife.

Thus I think AI-25 and our cooperation Ukraine is important in that regard and being able to make it with domestic means would ensure cost effective solution in the intermediate term while we work on our own engine.

 

[GoatsMilk]

I know wiki isn't reliable source, but I was thinking that continuing with Ukrainian design company is for the sake of the unmanned vehicles potentially crossover to jets if necessary.

AI-25 has been used for several trainer jets and is a very well tested engine, so having it license produced in Turkey (like China) would be very good for us. even if it says license built. I'm not sure it's being license built in Turkey or just assembled, as I don't think we know how much of the engine parts are produced domestically.

I don't think we'll get anything worthwhile cooperating with RR, as they're there to keep the R&D process at a certain pace, which could ultimately mean slowing us down. Remember that US-Brit doctrin is ensuring technological superiority of their allies, e.g. Israel and if they can't destroy R&D they can slow it down and hope to sabotage it through delays and political strife.

Thus I think AI-25 and our cooperation Ukraine is important in that regard and being able to make it with domestic means would ensure cost effective solution in the intermediate term while we work on our own engine.

Outside of Ukraine is there anyone else on earth Turkiye could work with to develop engine tech?

 

[Saithan]

Outside of Ukraine is there anyone else on earth Turkiye could work with to develop engine tech?

Someone outside US-western influence, I'd say none. Russia- China wouldn't want to cooperate, so our best bet are SEA countries like Indonesia, Malaysia who have some level of development that could potentially contribute in the future, but also gain something valuable from the cooperation.

 

[Heartbang]

Russia- China wouldn't want to cooperate

Plus their tech isn't up to snuff (at least for our standards)

 

[Chocopie]

Outside of Ukraine is there anyone else on earth Turkiye could work with to develop engine tech?

Maybe 2nd tier turbofan engine parts manufacturers from Germany, Italy or Spain.
India with their domestic Kaveri engine (Pakistan would flip out).
Japan's IHI with its XF9 engine (US would flip out, IHI now teamed up with 6th gen GCAP/Tempest group).

 

[Afif]

Maybe 2nd tier turbofan engine companies from Germany, Italy or Spain.
India with their domestic Kaveri engine (Pakistan would flip out).
Japan's IHI with its XF9 engine (US would flip out, IHI now teamed up with 6th gen GCAP/Tempest group).

AFAIK, XF9 was developed indeginously. So, why USA would flip out?

 

[Ryder]

I think Things aren't going as expected with UK. The contribution of BAE in TFX Phase-1 was very mediocre with mostly inexperienced engineers and Tusaş complained about this situation a few times. As for engine to be likely developed with RR, RR put strong cards on table both in terms of license rights and production since they feel that Turkiye don't have an alternative way out of their offer. Also, Some reluctant statements by Turkish officials regarding possible deal with BAE for TFX Phase-2 were reflected in the press. Turkiye's cooperation offers for Tempest were also rejected by UK. The withdrawal of British royal air force which was said to join the last AnatolianEagle exercise also created question marks. Apart from this, there is a serious political confrontation and embargo from the West in almost every field, be them enlargement of NATO, terror operations or Russia/Ukraine war. Considering these conditions, TEI/TrMotor must have been given an unofficial development task for Tf35K engine as a precautionary measure. If everything was fine with the RR, no one would work with 300 engineers on the design of the engine on an engineer/day basis. RR's capability is indisputable but we all know what we are going to face when it comes to matters related with Turkiye bro.

The Better Turkiye gets away from Europe and the West the better.

Artik its time to forge your own destiny.

 

[Chocopie]

AFAIK, XF9 was developed indeginously. So, why USA would flip out?

Over the decades Japan received a substantial transfer of technologies from the US for their civilian aerospace and space programs. When Japan independently developed their own F-2 fighter, the US intervened and made it a collaboration project to guarantee a US parts involvement and hinder the rise of a competing export rival. Japan cooperating with Türkiye in a military jet engine project? Washington would go ballistic!

 

[Yasar_TR]

Let us look at Japan’s XF9 engine produced as a prototype by IHI corporation.

This engine uses Blisk fans and Blisk compressors to improve weight and performance. It has a much improved patented fuel delivery system in the combustor that gives more even heat distribution in chamber. It has high pressure turbine sections that can operate to 1800 degrees C and contains fifth generation single crystal blades that are friction-welded to form a Blisk like operation. This is enclosed in a shroud made from ceramic matrix composites.

The interesting point here is that , such a high tech engine produced in June 2018 as a prototype, has still not been integrated to a flying aircraft to be tested with a view to serial manufacturing. Can there be some external pressure stopping it from being integrated?

Does anybody think that IHI and the Japanese (with their sharing-reluctant policy of military tech) will be willing to form a collaboration with TEI and Turkey? Would GE or RR the new partner, allow IHI to share any of this with Turkish counterparts? Especially as some of these techs are infringing on big boys’ technological prowess area.

Same logic can be applied to Indian engine manufacturers in a short while as they are now receiving technological help from Safran and GE.

TEI may have to go alone in this quest of ours to develop our version of low bypass turbofan jet engines. We need to find as many fresh minds and brains to work on our TF6/10K and TF35K programs. It can be via Ukrainian input or via foreign recruitments. JVs with nations that are in the same position as ours can also yield contribution to a certain degree albeit of limited amount.

I still say that we should be looking in to a possible partnership with RR, even if it means just to get one foot in the door.

 

[Bürküt]

Maybe 2nd tier turbofan engine parts manufacturers from Germany, Italy or Spain.
India with their domestic Kaveri engine (Pakistan would flip out).
Japan's IHI with its XF9 engine (US would flip out, IHI now teamed up with 6th gen GCAP/Tempest group).

Doesn't Korea have an engine developement program in the F404/F414 setting?As far as I know, TEI also has cooperation in certain areas with Korea. I heard it at a panel of TEI CEO Mahmut Akşit.TEI has a cooperation with related companies in every country except Japan/China/Russia.

 

[Chocopie]

Doesn't Korea have an engine developement program in the F404/F414 setting?As far as I know, TEI also has cooperation in certain areas with Korea. I heard it at a panel of TEI CEO Mahmut Akşit.TEI has a cooperation with related companies in every country except Japan/China/Russia.

Hanwha Aerospace, Korea‘s main gas turbine and aircraft engine manufacturer, locally assembles and produces parts for F414-GE-400K engines of KF-21.

They‘re also involved in a highly secretive development project of a 5,500~8,500 lbf dry thrust turbofan engine intended for stealth UAVs until 2025. So far no news about the progress …

1st speculation: it doesn‘t go well
2nd speculation: gov wants to fly under the radar not to piss off US DoD & MIC
3rd speculation: it was dropped entirely due to technical difficulties

Latest news about Hanwha engine plans:

Hanwha aims to develop unmanned fighter jet engine within decade - KED Global

Hanwha Aerospace Co., South Korea’s answer to Elon Musk’s SpaceX, aims to develop engines for unmanned aircraft within the next decade to enhance i

www.kedglobal.com

Company info Hanwha Aerospace (PDF):
Hanwha PDF downlod

 

[UkroTurk]

Let us look at Japan’s XF9 engine produced as a prototype by IHI corporation.

This engine uses Blisk fans and Blisk compressors to improve weight and performance. It has a much improved patented fuel delivery system in the combustor that gives more even heat distribution in chamber. It has high pressure turbine sections that can operate to 1800 degrees C and contains fifth generation single crystal blades that are friction-welded to form a Blisk like operation. This is enclosed in a shroud made from ceramic matrix composites.

The interesting point here is that , such a high tech engine produced in June 2018 as a prototype, has still not been integrated to a flying aircraft to be tested with a view to serial manufacturing. Can there be some external pressure stopping it from being integrated?

Does anybody think that IHI and the Japanese (with their sharing-reluctant policy of military tech) will be willing to form a collaboration with TEI and Turkey? Would GE or RR the new partner, allow IHI to share any of this with Turkish counterparts? Especially as some of these techs are infringing on big boys’ technological prowess area.

Same logic can be applied to Indian engine manufacturers in a short while as they are now receiving technological help from Safran and GE.

TEI may have to go alone in this quest of ours to develop our version of low bypass turbofan jet engines. We need to find as many fresh minds and brains to work on our TF6/10K and TF35K programs. It can be via Ukrainian input or via foreign recruitments. JVs with nations that are in the same position as ours can also yield contribution to a certain degree albeit of limited amount.

I still say that we should be looking in to a possible partnership with RR, even if it means just to get one foot in the door.

Even dreaming about Japanese engine is joyful

 

[Bürküt]

Hanwha Aerospace, Korea‘s main gas turbine and aircraft engine manufacturer, locally assembles and produces parts for F414-GE-400K engines of KF-21.

They‘re also involved in a highly secretive development project of a 5,500~8,500 lbf dry thrust turbofan engine intended for stealth UAVs until 2025. So far no news about the progress …

1st speculation: it doesn‘t go well
2nd speculation: gov wants to fly under the radar not to piss off US DoD & MIC
3rd speculation: it was dropped entirely due to technical difficulties

Latest news about Hanwha engine plans:

Hanwha aims to develop unmanned fighter jet engine within decade - KED Global

Hanwha Aerospace Co., South Korea’s answer to Elon Musk’s SpaceX, aims to develop engines for unmanned aircraft within the next decade to enhance i

www.kedglobal.com

Company info Hanwha Aerospace (PDF):
Hanwha PDF downlod

probably the 2nd.You Koreans like to move forward with modest and confident steps

 

[Chocopie]

probably the 2nd.You Koreans like to move forward with modest and confident steps

Nobody knows. Defense officials are incredibly secretive about some projects. Just like the years-long rumors about a Korean supersonic AShM and BAM out of nothing they release video footage of the missile. And thereafter: total silence again ‍

 

[GoatsMilk]

Let us look at Japan’s XF9 engine produced as a prototype by IHI corporation.

This engine uses Blisk fans and Blisk compressors to improve weight and performance. It has a much improved patented fuel delivery system in the combustor that gives more even heat distribution in chamber. It has high pressure turbine sections that can operate to 1800 degrees C and contains fifth generation single crystal blades that are friction-welded to form a Blisk like operation. This is enclosed in a shroud made from ceramic matrix composites.

The interesting point here is that , such a high tech engine produced in June 2018 as a prototype, has still not been integrated to a flying aircraft to be tested with a view to serial manufacturing. Can there be some external pressure stopping it from being integrated?

Does anybody think that IHI and the Japanese (with their sharing-reluctant policy of military tech) will be willing to form a collaboration with TEI and Turkey? Would GE or RR the new partner, allow IHI to share any of this with Turkish counterparts? Especially as some of these techs are infringing on big boys’ technological prowess area.

Same logic can be applied to Indian engine manufacturers in a short while as they are now receiving technological help from Safran and GE.

TEI may have to go alone in this quest of ours to develop our version of low bypass turbofan jet engines. We need to find as many fresh minds and brains to work on our TF6/10K and TF35K programs. It can be via Ukrainian input or via foreign recruitments. JVs with nations that are in the same position as ours can also yield contribution to a certain degree albeit of limited amount.

I still say that we should be looking in to a possible partnership with RR, even if it means just to get one foot in the door.

If Turkiye has to go it alone, what are the reasonable expectations concerning what can and will be achieved? So lets say we get no help, 20 years from now what can we reasonably hope to have achieved in terms of engine power?

Because it really does seem like being able to create the fighter engine means everything.

 

[Bürküt]

Nobody knows. Defense officials are incredibly secretive about some projects. Just like the years-long rumors about a Korean supersonic AShM and BAM out of nothing they release video footage of the missile. And thereafter: total silence again ‍

It made me laugh when I thought of our chairman of the defense industry who wrote a poem under the newly made MRBM's video and shared it on twitter .

 

[Peter66]

This is an interesting read. We commend F35 at the highest possible level. However if it can be scrambled and blinded by a 4th gen fighter like that, it is serious...

Su-30 has used Khibiny EW system while intercepting the F-35

bulgarianmilitary.com

So how reliable is this post ?

 

[Yasar_TR]

If Turkiye has to go it alone, what are the reasonable expectations concerning what can and will be achieved? So lets say we get no help, 20 years from now what can we reasonably hope to have achieved in terms of engine power?

Because it really does seem like being able to create the fighter engine means everything.

At the moment the first target is to produce the TF6000 engine with a dry thrust level of at least 6000lbf. Also add to it an afterburner to augment thrust to 10000lbf. We don’t know if TEI is producing the TF6000 with enough durability to accommodate an afterburner. Hopefully they are. Otherwise that will mean a second prototype with specifics to withstand the sudden stresses introduced by the afterburner when it is fired up.
This engine will give us enough data to produce an engine that will provide 24-26000lbf thrust level to allow KAAN to manage supercruise. And 35000lbf with an afterburner.
Logic dictates that since TEI has enough expertise to produce almost all of the parts of such an engine, TEI should be able to produce an engine around 2026 for first ignition and an engine that can fly by 2028-29 with a view to start serial production in 2030.

20 years from now I would expect us to be producing adaptive cycle engines with ceramic matrix composites, having mastered a good plethora of engine families of turbofans, turboprops and turboshafts.

 

[Bürküt]

I noticed that Turks also like to autograph new weapon systems.

Yes it's true.At least, putting Atatürk's signature on aircrafts is a kind of tradition despite Erdoğan .

 

[Zafer]

20 years from now

more like 10 hopefully.

TF6000 will be telling and if the TF35000 gets ignition by 2025-2026 and to be deployed by the beginning of 2028 the design teem would probably be relieved from work in 2027 which then would be available for the next level. 5 years from then and 10 years from today an adaptive cycle engine with all the bells and whistles would be in the air doing its final runs before production. Not too farfetched.