TR Naval Programs

[Ripley]

And also this, as the last post on the subject

For these very reasons, I have the idea that the future heavy frigate planning, which we have been talking about for years as TF-100 and which still does not seem to start design activities in the near future, will be at least as heavy as the TF-2000, and maybe even built on the same hull. Like France's FREMM planning. Therefore, I have the idea that the +3 option in the TF-2000 planning, which is stated as 4 + 3, will be realised, perhaps more asw-dominated, but definitely. It may even be 4+4.

 

[uçuyorum]

And also this, as the last post on the subject

So like Tf2000 hull but with no çafrad instead stuff like rotating EIRS?

 

[Brave Janissary]

F 515

View attachment 59084

Turkish Fremm Equivealent. When we solve this doublepack and quadpack issues he will be better than french asw/asuw Fremm's.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Is it endurance? hull design? sea keeping characteristics? lack of ocean worthiness (sea state 6)? Or is it maybe just an eagerness by the TN to continue the tested and proven MILGEM line by squeezing a 4-5K tons design as an organic follow up design?

Maybe @Anmdt and @Yasar could explain further.

Great post to get the juices flowing.
@Anmdt has made it clear that squeezing anything bigger and more than an Istif class out of the current Milgem Ada Class is out of the question, unless the design is altered substantially, effectively creating a different breed of ship altogether.
We all know that those 8 Gabya Class ship are at the end of their life. Especially the 4 without the VLS need to go soon.
I have always been the supporter of a smaller 4-5000 Ton air defence frigate, rather than a 8500 ton destroyer. TF4500 design shown in previous fairs fit the bill and should be more affordable.

But the Tr Navy seems to have its heart set on the billion dollar TF2000 destroyer. According to news released in April this year the budget and funds necessary were allocated for the first ship’s construction. So we can expect the start of production of first ship with a view to be part of the Tr Naval inventory by 2027. Hopefully they will do an Istif style production sharing scheme for the remaining 7 ships (3 definite and 4 on option) to expedite deliveries. Once the first 4 ships are in place, they will release the necessity to keep on to any of the 8 G-Class ships.
For littoral waters defensive posture, we don’t really need anything more than the I-Class. So the Hisar Class OPVs (2 + 8) and the Ada Class ships will provide more than sufficient deterrence and firepower for that purpose, specially if what is written about the OPVs is correct even in their stripped down state.

Hisar Sınıfı Açık Deniz Karakol Gemileri

Hisar sınıfı Açık Deniz Karakol Gemileri, başlıca Türkiye'nin Mavi Vatan sınırları içerisinde gerçekleştirdiği araştırma ve sondaj faaliyetlerini her türlü dış

mavivatan.net

We all would like to see a bigger naval force. But with current modern equipment prices and their development costs and having well educated and trained staff and officers being not cheap, there is a limit to how big a Navy we can have. Going forward our navy may well be with less platforms but with more technology available on board those platforms.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Great post to get the juices flowing.
@Anmdt has made it clear that squeezing anything bigger and more than an Istif class out of the current Milgem Ada Class is out of the question, unless the design is altered substantially, effectively creating a different breed of ship altogether.
We all know that those 8 Gabya Class ship are at the end of their life. Especially the 4 without the VLS need to go soon.
I have always been the supporter of a smaller 4-5000 Ton air defence frigate, rather than a 8500 ton destroyer. TF4500 design shown in previous fairs fit the bill and should be more affordable.
View attachment 59115
But the Tr Navy seems to have its heart set on the billion dollar TF2000 destroyer. According to news released in April this year the budget and funds necessary were allocated for the first ship’s construction. So we can expect the start of production of first ship with a view to be part of the Tr Naval inventory by 2027. Hopefully they will do an Istif style production sharing scheme for the remaining 7 ships (3 definite and 4 on option) to expedite quicker deliveries. Once the first 4 ships are in place, they will release the necessity to keep on to any of the 8 G-Class ships.
For littoral waters defensive posture, we don’t really need anything more than the I-Class. So the Hisar Class OPVs (2 + 8) and the Ada Class ships will provide more than sufficient deterrence and firepower for that purpose, specially if what is written about the OPVs is correct even in their stripped down state.
View attachment 59116

Hisar Sınıfı Açık Deniz Karakol Gemileri

Hisar sınıfı Açık Deniz Karakol Gemileri, başlıca Türkiye'nin Mavi Vatan sınırları içerisinde gerçekleştirdiği araştırma ve sondaj faaliyetlerini her türlü dış

mavivatan.net

We all would like to see a bigger naval force. But with current modern equipment prices and their development costs and having well educated and trained staff and officers being not cheap, there is a limit to how big a Navy we can have. Going forward our navy may well be with less platforms but with more technology available on board those platforms.

Great post! Eventually, the Turkish navy will be going for TF4500 at some point sooner or later.

Two options are available on the table.

1. Armerkom and DPO worked on TF2000 in a way that a new lighter design can be derived. That would be after they finish the contract details concerning the design stage in late 2024.


2. Another option could be that they can start working on a lighter version now from another company that was rivaling the selected company.


I'm not a naval expert however sooner or later we will see a Frigate between the I-Class and the TF-2000 destroyer. Probably something around 5000-7000 tons with different mission profiles. 32 VLS with 32 air defense cells, or 16 air defense cell+ 16 Gezgin.

 

[UkroTurk]

The weight and size of a frigate can have various effects on its abilities and performance. Here are some general considerations:

Advantages of a heavier and bigger frigate (6000 tons):

1. Increased stability: A heavier frigate tends to have better stability in rough seas, making it more suitable for operations in adverse weather conditions.
2. Enhanced endurance: The larger size allows for more fuel storage, which can result in longer operational range and increased endurance.
3. Greater payload capacity: A heavier frigate can carry more equipment, weapons, and supplies, allowing for a wider range of mission capabilities.
4. Improved habitability: The extra space can be utilized to provide better living conditions for the crew, including more comfortable accommodations and recreational facilities.

Advantages of a medium-sized frigate (4500 tons):

1. Balanced performance: The 4500-ton frigate offers a compromise between the smaller and larger frigates, providing a balance between agility, speed, and endurance.
2. Maneuverability: The frigate's moderate size can contribute to better maneuverability, allowing it to navigate in confined spaces and operate in littoral waters effectively.
3. Flexibility: A medium-sized frigate can be suitable for various mission types, including anti-submarine warfare, anti-air warfare, and surface warfare.
4. Cost-effectiveness: Compared to the larger frigate, the 4500-ton variant may provide a more cost-effective solution in terms of construction, maintenance, and operational expenses.

Advantages of a lighter frigate (3000 tons):

1. Higher speed and agility: With a smaller size and weight, the frigate may have better acceleration and maneuverability, making it more agile in combat scenarios and capable of higher speeds.
2. Accessibility: The lighter frigate can access shallower waters and ports, enabling it to operate in areas that may be off-limits to larger vessels.
3. Reduced operational costs: A smaller frigate generally requires less fuel, has lower maintenance costs, and may require a smaller crew, resulting in reduced operating expenses.

4. Stealth capabilities: The reduced size and weight can contribute to a smaller radar cross-section, making the frigate potentially harder to detect by enemy radar systems.

It's important to note that the specific capabilities and performance of frigates can vary significantly based on their design, technology, and individual specifications. The examples provided are general considerations and may not apply to every frigate design.

 

[Fx-gun]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1678363276780904448

 

[Fx-gun]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1677012114983260160

 

[dBSPL]

Ocean-going heavy frigates and destroyers, which realize area dominance, are probably the largest sources of electronic noise on the ocean. It is this warfare capability that makes these ships intimidating war machines and requires to stay out of scanning and engagement range from them. So there is no problem with that. The electronic noise it emits is already its deterrent. Stealth characteristics are not so important for area dominance platforms. I say this excluding hull magnetism and propulsion, propeller technologies, I mean hull geometry and superstructure. Sea keeping, installed power and capacity are much higher priorities.

In most surface-to-surface attack type and whole submarine-to-surface attack types, the equation is reversed. In other words, the concept of stealth is more real for platforms that work for the disrupt area dominance and weaken enemy sea lanes and supply networks. I have to emphasize that sinking a task force destroyer in the open sea with a diesel/electric submarine is really technically very difficult, almost impossible.

When we examine the great naval battles throughout history, we see that the strong side has aimed area dominance by armor and power, while the weak side has emphasized more maneuvering with fewer resources, dispersed forces and undetectability. Although this equation has become more complex today, we can say that it retains its main logic in general terms.

Another issue is the promise of unmanned machines in naval concepts, especially in coastal waters and the littoral zone. Apart from the asymmetry created by unmanned surface and underwater machines integrated with air assets, they are also on their way to becoming a serious force multiplier. This can offer serious advantages, especially in the management of human resources.

Without ignoring all the critical parameters such as cost, sustainment and personnel, naval expansion should create a design in line with the doctrine and concepts of the next 50 years with these two types of naval platforms.

Under Abdulaziz for example, the entire Ottoman resurgence effort relied heavily on foreign procurement and financing. In addition to the enormous cost burden compared to the economic functions of the state through unreliable partners, there was also the internal political turmoil and bureaucratic corruption of a state in the process of disintegration.

This time, for the first time really, the possibility of a healthy and sustainable resurgence is emerging. The greatest assurance for this is the fact that we are entering a period of maturity in the Turkish shipbuilding industry and the domestic production power in defense electronics and weapon systems.

 

[Kaan Azman]

SOM-J but launched off ships

 

[Bayraktar TB2]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1679886260372905986

 

[Osman]

Gathering data from hellenic navy?

 

[Windchime]

F 515

View attachment 59084

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1677012114983260160

Oh boy she's a looker for sure.

 

[Windchime]

We all know that those 8 Gabya Class ship are at the end of their life. Especially the 4 without the VLS need to go soon.

Are there any plans regarding how the G-Class will be replaced? I've thought that Istif was gonna be her replacement but that doesn't seems to be the case reading from what you guys wrote.

I think there surely is a need for additional Istanbul class in the future. Barbaros class wouldn't be able to serve forever afterall and there's going to be room for something like Istanbul class flight II or batch II. Though considering that the disputes regarding Turkish EEZ, esepcially in the Eastern Mediterranean region between Turkish and Egyptian waters, is only getting worse I feel and Turkish Navy surely needs a ship with better endurance, both in terms of fuel and food as well as crew comfort when it comes to stand-offs or general green water operations. For that, something closer to 5000 tons would be more ideal as a cheaper workhorse ship that is still capable enough. That's just my thoughts though.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Are there any plans regarding how the G-Class will be replaced? I've thought that Istif was gonna be her replacement but that doesn't seems to be the case reading from what you guys wrote.

I think there surely is a need for additional Istanbul class in the future. Barbaros class wouldn't be able to serve forever afterall and there's going to be room for something like Istanbul class flight II or batch II. Though considering that the disputes regarding Turkish EEZ, esepcially in the Eastern Mediterranean region between Turkish and Egyptian waters, is only getting worse I feel and Turkish Navy surely needs a ship with better endurance, both in terms of fuel and food as well as crew comfort when it comes to stand-offs or general green water operations. For that, something closer to 5000 tons would be more ideal as a cheaper workhorse ship that is still capable enough. That's just my thoughts though.

Gabya Class Frigates are 135 metre long 4100 ton ships they are full of combat hardware. After the modernisations they have gone through, they are also the most capable air defence frigates we have in our fleet. However only 4 of them have the VLS system that can utilise quad pack ESSMs.
I-Class will have a good deal of more modern and predominantly indigenous equipment on board when all the integration work is completed. But in terms of open sea performance Gabya Class ships are still the more capable platforms in TN.
I-class ships are 3100ton 114m long light frigates/heavy corvettes.
Istanbul Class looks like it has been designed to be more capable than the Ada Class corvettes with respect to sea keeping. But they are really best for littoral waters. For overseas power projection the TF2000 is designed to be the real replacement of Gabya Class. In fact it will be more than replacement but a giant leap of improvement over anything that we have in our Navy’s inventory. First ship to be in service around post 2027. There will be 7 of them altogether. At 8500tons and nearly 170m they are destroyer class ships. Steel cutting of TF2000 is expected for this year as funding has been arranged according to news released earlier this year.
Within the TN’s ship building programmes there is a TF4500 light frigate with a 4500ton displacement. But how and when this will materialise is still a mystery. If it becomes reality , then it will be a true replacement of the G-Class.

 

[Fairon]

Is 4500t frigate project materialised?

As far as i know, it is just our collective dream.

 

[TR_123456]

Is 4500t frigate project materialised?

As far as i know, it is just our collective dream.

Not a dream,a must.
We have no other choice,it has to be done.

 

[Khagan1923]

Is 4500t frigate project materialised?

As far as i know, it is just our collective dream.

Wouldn't call it a dream. I-Class will replace Yavuz-Class who are pretty much at EOL. Barbaros/Salihreis is being modernized but will at most serve another 10-15 years even after the MLU. Gabya non-modernized 4 ships will most likely be decommissioned over the next 10 years as TF-2000 Destroyers are being put into service. Also seeing how this Class would begin production most likely in mid 30s it would fit perfectly with the retirement of the Barbaros/Salihreis-Class.

Right now you are pretty much replacing the Yavuz-Class with the I-Class. And need an replacement plan for the Barbaros/Salihreis-Class and if the number of TF-2000 ships shrinks which is possible you also will have to replace a couple Gabya-Class with a cheaper 4000-5000 ton ship.

In the future I see a possible Turkish surface fleet of:

4-8 TF-2000 Destroyer (Depending on economic outlook)
4-8 TF4500 Multirole heavy frigate (possible back-up in case TF-2000 orders get reduced)
4 I-Class light Frigate
4 Ada-Class Corvettes MLU
8 Hisar-Class OPV 6 ships FFBNW
Unspecified number of Turkish Type FAC to replace Burak Corvettes and older FAC in the inventory.

Maybe 1 or 2 Barbaros/Salihreis in service for a couple more years.

I think @Anmdt touched on this once or twice that the Navy also is interested in such a ship but it is more in the background with TF-2000 and Milden taking most of their attention.

 

[Windchime]

Gabya Class Frigates are 135 metre long 4100 ton ships they are full of combat hardware. After the modernisations they have gone through, they are also the most capable air defence frigates we have in our fleet. However only 4 of them have the VLS system that can utilise quad pack ESSMs.
I-Class will have a good deal of more modern and predominantly indigenous equipment on board when all the integration work is completed. But in terms of open sea performance Gabya Class ships are still the more capable platforms in TN.
I-class ships are 3100ton 114m long light frigates/heavy corvettes.
Istanbul Class looks like it has been designed to be more capable than the Ada Class corvettes with respect to sea keeping. But they are really best for littoral waters. For overseas power projection the TF2000 is designed to be the real replacement of Gabya Class. In fact it will be more than replacement but a giant leap of improvement over anything that we have in our Navy’s inventory. First ship to be in service around post 2027. There will be 7 of them altogether. At 8500tons and nearly 170m they are destroyer class ships. Steel cutting of TF2000 is expected for this year as funding has been arranged according to news released earlier this year.
Within the TN’s ship building programmes there is a TF4500 light frigate with a 4500ton displacement. But how and when this will materialise is still a mystery. If it becomes reality , then it will be a true replacement of the G-Class.

Wouldn't call it a dream. I-Class will replace Yavuz-Class who are pretty much at EOL. Barbaros/Salihreis is being modernized but will at most serve another 10-15 years even after the MLU. Gabya non-modernized 4 ships will most likely be decommissioned over the next 10 years as TF-2000 Destroyers are being put into service. Also seeing how this Class would begin production most likely in mid 30s it would fit perfectly with the retirement of the Barbaros/Salihreis-Class.

Right now you are pretty much replacing the Yavuz-Class with the I-Class. And need an replacement plan for the Barbaros/Salihreis-Class and if the number of TF-2000 ships shrinks which is possible you also will have to replace a couple Gabya-Class with a cheaper 4000-5000 ton ship.

In the future I see a possible Turkish surface fleet of:

4-8 TF-2000 Destroyer (Depending on economic outlook)
4-8 TF4500 Multirole heavy frigate (possible back-up in case TF-2000 orders get reduced)
4 I-Class light Frigate
4 Ada-Class Corvettes MLU
8 Hisar-Class OPV 6 ships FFBNW
Unspecified number of Turkish Type FAC to replace Burak Corvettes and older FAC in the inventory.

Maybe 1 or 2 Barbaros/Salihreis in service for a couple more years.

I think @Anmdt touched on this once or twice that the Navy also is interested in such a ship but it is more in the background with TF-2000 and Milden taking most of their attention.

So it's more like the confirmed plan for 4 TF2000 is a direct replacement of the 4 G-Class that are less modernized and will likely retire earlier. I've thought that TF-2000 was a completely independent, new project not intended to replace any existing Turkish Navy ship, since the size and capability difference was so huge. Anyways then, the replacement of rest of the 4 G-Class ships equipped with VLS is still up in the air. If there's an official mention of this 4500 ton class frigate, the TF-4500 that you've mentioned, I guess it really depends on Turkish economic outlook. As you'd know the French and Italians drastically scaled down in their Horizon class program and replaced it with the AAW variants of FREMM instead. Same could happen I guess, but for that TF-4500 might need to grow a bit larger. We'll see.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

A few point about TN future fleet structure, A second enlarged drone carrier/LHD was mentioned and some design images was revealed. Also, a real AC was officially discussed with UK. Apart from this, the production of Tf2000 must be started in the upcoming period, maybe in 2024/2025 but This project may need a partner customer for financial support (?). In this way, big money worth billion $ for each exported ship can be supplied to the country while continuing to produce this beast.The number specified for Hisar OPV is 10 in total. The previous FAC tender was based on 10 ships. I think STM TTFAC which will start production, will be produced with similar numbers. I think fleet structure that TN will create for mid term will be as follows;

1x AC
2x LHD/Drone carrier
8x TF8500 (Tf2000)
4x+4 Tf4500
4x I class
4x Ada
10x Hisar OPV
10x TTFAC