TR Navy Naval Programs

[UkroTurk]

Does Turkish Defense Industry produce synthetic aperture sonars or Multiple aperture sonars

Are there any plans in Turkish Navy employ SAS or MAS in the warships?

For instance Hisar Class, Ada Class, İ-Class and USWs could use MAS for ASW.

On the other hand Tuzla class patrol boats could use SAS..

MAS vs SAS - When should we use multiple aperture sonar?

An AUV with Solstice sees further and at higher resolution than traditional side-scans. However, compared to Synthetic Aperture Sonar (SAS) it’s shorter range and it offers less resolution.

geo-matching.com

 

[Heartbang]

Like an Ada class slightly weaker more fuel efficient propulsion but longer endurance and lighter sensor & weapon load, I guess

That's a given. I was confused about the "yerinde hazır" concept they're talking about when discussing this ship.

 

[uçuyorum]

That's a given. I was confused about the "yerinde hazır" concept they're talking about when discussing this ship.

Since it's almost same hull as Ada class, it will have open slots for same kind of weapons to be used if needed, but they will be left empty to reduce costs during peace time. So while it says it will have things like Hisar D or Atmaca these may be optional for that situation. It's almost like stripped down Ada class that can be converted to Ada, it will probably only have 76mm and other smaller cannons default

 

[TheInsider]

That's a given. I was confused about the "yerinde hazır" concept they're talking about when discussing this ship.

"Yerinde hazır"= plug and play it is one step further than "fitted but not with".

 

[Heartbang]

"Yerinde hazır"= plug and play it is one step further than "fitted but not with".

Gotcha, thank you.

 

[Afif]

It really is a shame they are making only 3x more of this beautiful ship.

8x Istanbul-class in total should have been the way to go.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

It really is a shame they are making only 3x more of this beautiful ship.

8x Istanbul-class in total should have been the way to go.

Noone knows perhaps navy can order more , 4x are nothing , exports are going great so another 4 or 6 istanbul class will be great knowing that there are mutiple opponents around our Mavi Vatan but navy perhaps is waiting for bigger frigate like tf 4500 who knows.

 

[Ripley]

It really is a shame they are making only 3x more of this beautiful ship.

8x Istanbul-class in total should have been the way to go.

I agree. It is a beautiful ship. and desperately needed by the navy. That’s why they’re building three at the same time. Never heard of in Turkish ship building history.
However, theres also a fact (never been admitted by officials, of course) that TN also needs a ship that would keep up with TF2000 and TCG Anadolu to perform independent fleet operations on a huge geography.
Such probable task profile would necessitate a new hull of around 4000 - 5000 tons with long endurance, quite beefed up fire power and EW suites. And as such, it should perform missions at sea state 6 which is way above Istif’s comfort zone.
As it’s been discussed at this forum before, Istif Class, unfortunately, don’t fit the bill.

 

[Fairon]

I agree. It is a beautiful ship. and desperately needed by the navy. That’s why they’re building three at the same time. Never heard of in Turkish ship building history.
However, theres also a fact (never been admitted by officials, of course) that TN also needs a ship that would keep up with TF2000 and TCG Anadolu to perform independent fleet operations on a huge geography.
Such probable task profile would necessitate a new hull of around 4000 - 5000 tons with long endurance, quite beefed up fire power and EW suites. And as such, it should perform missions at sea state 6 which is way above Istif’s comfort zone.
As it’s been discussed at this forum before, Istif Class, unfortunately, don’t fit the bill.

I completely agree.

On the other hand, 8 Istif, 8 4000-5000t frigate and 8 TF2000 would be my wet dream.

 

[Ripley]

I completely agree.

On the other hand, 8 Istif, 8 4000-5000t frigate and 8 TF2000 would be my wet dream.

Normally I would exclaim an “eew“ but must admit that I also find myself succumb to such wet dreams

 

[Afif]

@Ripley Hmm, i guess for now 4x Istif, 4x 5000t new Frigates and 4x TF2000s is a reasonable 'dry dream'.

 

[manifesto]

Why was PİRİ KATS removed? Will it be installed later?

 

[TheInsider]

Oiler. The first vessel of the navy oiler project. 4 will be constructed. Over %80 national contribution.

 

[No Name]

I agree. It is a beautiful ship. and desperately needed by the navy. That’s why they’re building three at the same time. Never heard of in Turkish ship building history.
However, theres also a fact (never been admitted by officials, of course) that TN also needs a ship that would keep up with TF2000 and TCG Anadolu to perform independent fleet operations on a huge geography.
Such probable task profile would necessitate a new hull of around 4000 - 5000 tons with long endurance, quite beefed up fire power and EW suites. And as such, it should perform missions at sea state 6 which is way above Istif’s comfort zone.
As it’s been discussed at this forum before, Istif Class, unfortunately, don’t fit the bill.

Do you mean something like DEARSAN Shipyard F 142.

Main specifications of F 142 frigate design:

• Length: 141.4 meters
• Beam: 18.5 meters
• Draft: 4.6 meters
• Displacement: 5,500 tons
• Max speed: 27 knots
• Endurance: 90 days at sea
• Range: 5,000 nm
• Hull: Steel
• Superstructure: Steel
• Crew: 188 sailors

 

[Ripley]

Do you mean something like DEARSAN Shipyard F 142.

Main specifications of F 142 frigate design:

• Length: 141.4 meters
• Beam: 18.5 meters
• Draft: 4.6 meters
• Displacement: 5,500 tons
• Max speed: 27 knots
• Endurance: 90 days at sea
• Range: 5,000 nm
• Hull: Steel
• Superstructure: Steel
• Crew: 188 sailors

No I don’t mean that because TN, AFAIK, is not considering the design to complement TF2000.

Is it endurance? hull design? sea keeping characteristics? lack of ocean worthiness (sea state 6)? Or is it maybe just an eagerness by the TN to continue the tested and proven MILGEM line by squeezing a 4-5K tons design as an organic follow up design?

Maybe @Anmdt and @Yasar could explain further.

Meanwhile, there is a previous series of posts you may wanna check regarding this 5000 tons hull.

There seems to be two types of arrowhead ships; arrowhead-120 and arrowhead-140
First one a 4000ton and the latter a 5700ton frigate. They are both classed as light frigates.
First one a 120m long ship while the latter is 140m long.
Very capable platforms.
The longer one is also classed as Type31 frigate, and named as “Inspiration class”.
At 330million dollars each, they seem like a snip.

But I had rather build 4 more longer I-Class ships with a heavier tonnage, nearing 4500tons, in Turkey than spend money on these UK built ships.
Even if they are, the more expensive 114metre current ones are a better investment than any purchased ship.
Keep our money in the country.
Let everyone wonder what is under that hull.
If anything needs to be upgraded or changed, let it be under our control.
If we can build 3 ships in 36 months, then we can surely build 4 more if push comes to shove.

View attachment 56847

The difference is merely the endurance and seakeeping of the AH140 design in comparison to I-class. Unfortunately I-class may not be stretched to the size of AH140 but the mast could be retained as whole that would reduce the design efforts. If happens, those would be built in TR under a license, modified according to the TN needs with Turkish components and weapons but still, certified by Turkish Loyd.Not to be misunderstood, I am mentioning of this as a better alternative than Type-23s if there is such an urgency.

4 AH140 could be made and commissioned in 4 years, which is the foreseen duration for preparation of Type-23s for transfer and training of the crew and maintenance personnel.

I would be all in favor of a Turkish design like F142 (merely as an example, i am not very fond of the design*) but that is yet to mature and move forward from conceptual design stage to preliminary design stage. STM also had such a frigate design that hasn't gone public (not talking about TF-4500). Armerkom has studied on feasibility of such a design but that is yet to proceed (see how long TF-2000 took).

Then it’s official now. Turkish Navy really needs a 4000 - 5000 tons ship between Istif and TF200.

If the TF2000 designed with the criteria of “Unconditional operation at sea state 5 and conditional operation with speed and heading limitations at sea state 6” then it’s fair to assume that required 5K ship should keep up with the former, hence an endurance around 5000 NM with operational capability at sea state 6.

And yet we can’t tweak around the Istif class hull anymore to meet such requirements.

The options are Type23, Arrowhead and it’s variant (type31), Dearsan F142 and STM design.

Type 23, with its strong suit, the sonar suite stripped off (no pun intended) indeed not attractive at all.
Arrowhead and its longer hull variant type31 not desired due to foreign designs rather than our own designs.
Dearsan F142 seem lacking TN requirements whereas STM is just a design study as I understand.

Wow! Though.

 

[Ripley]

And also this, as the last post on the subject

For these very reasons, I have the idea that the future heavy frigate planning, which we have been talking about for years as TF-100 and which still does not seem to start design activities in the near future, will be at least as heavy as the TF-2000, and maybe even built on the same hull. Like France's FREMM planning. Therefore, I have the idea that the +3 option in the TF-2000 planning, which is stated as 4 + 3, will be realised, perhaps more asw-dominated, but definitely. It may even be 4+4.

 

[uçuyorum]

And also this, as the last post on the subject

So like Tf2000 hull but with no çafrad instead stuff like rotating EIRS?

 

[Brave Janissary]

F 515

View attachment 59084

Turkish Fremm Equivealent. When we solve this doublepack and quadpack issues he will be better than french asw/asuw Fremm's.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Is it endurance? hull design? sea keeping characteristics? lack of ocean worthiness (sea state 6)? Or is it maybe just an eagerness by the TN to continue the tested and proven MILGEM line by squeezing a 4-5K tons design as an organic follow up design?

Maybe @Anmdt and @Yasar could explain further.

Great post to get the juices flowing.
@Anmdt has made it clear that squeezing anything bigger and more than an Istif class out of the current Milgem Ada Class is out of the question, unless the design is altered substantially, effectively creating a different breed of ship altogether.
We all know that those 8 Gabya Class ship are at the end of their life. Especially the 4 without the VLS need to go soon.
I have always been the supporter of a smaller 4-5000 Ton air defence frigate, rather than a 8500 ton destroyer. TF4500 design shown in previous fairs fit the bill and should be more affordable.

But the Tr Navy seems to have its heart set on the billion dollar TF2000 destroyer. According to news released in April this year the budget and funds necessary were allocated for the first ship’s construction. So we can expect the start of production of first ship with a view to be part of the Tr Naval inventory by 2027. Hopefully they will do an Istif style production sharing scheme for the remaining 7 ships (3 definite and 4 on option) to expedite deliveries. Once the first 4 ships are in place, they will release the necessity to keep on to any of the 8 G-Class ships.
For littoral waters defensive posture, we don’t really need anything more than the I-Class. So the Hisar Class OPVs (2 + 8) and the Ada Class ships will provide more than sufficient deterrence and firepower for that purpose, specially if what is written about the OPVs is correct even in their stripped down state.

Hisar Sınıfı Açık Deniz Karakol Gemileri

Hisar sınıfı Açık Deniz Karakol Gemileri, başlıca Türkiye'nin Mavi Vatan sınırları içerisinde gerçekleştirdiği araştırma ve sondaj faaliyetlerini her türlü dış

mavivatan.net

We all would like to see a bigger naval force. But with current modern equipment prices and their development costs and having well educated and trained staff and officers being not cheap, there is a limit to how big a Navy we can have. Going forward our navy may well be with less platforms but with more technology available on board those platforms.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Great post to get the juices flowing.
@Anmdt has made it clear that squeezing anything bigger and more than an Istif class out of the current Milgem Ada Class is out of the question, unless the design is altered substantially, effectively creating a different breed of ship altogether.
We all know that those 8 Gabya Class ship are at the end of their life. Especially the 4 without the VLS need to go soon.
I have always been the supporter of a smaller 4-5000 Ton air defence frigate, rather than a 8500 ton destroyer. TF4500 design shown in previous fairs fit the bill and should be more affordable.
View attachment 59115
But the Tr Navy seems to have its heart set on the billion dollar TF2000 destroyer. According to news released in April this year the budget and funds necessary were allocated for the first ship’s construction. So we can expect the start of production of first ship with a view to be part of the Tr Naval inventory by 2027. Hopefully they will do an Istif style production sharing scheme for the remaining 7 ships (3 definite and 4 on option) to expedite quicker deliveries. Once the first 4 ships are in place, they will release the necessity to keep on to any of the 8 G-Class ships.
For littoral waters defensive posture, we don’t really need anything more than the I-Class. So the Hisar Class OPVs (2 + 8) and the Ada Class ships will provide more than sufficient deterrence and firepower for that purpose, specially if what is written about the OPVs is correct even in their stripped down state.
View attachment 59116

Hisar Sınıfı Açık Deniz Karakol Gemileri

Hisar sınıfı Açık Deniz Karakol Gemileri, başlıca Türkiye'nin Mavi Vatan sınırları içerisinde gerçekleştirdiği araştırma ve sondaj faaliyetlerini her türlü dış

mavivatan.net

We all would like to see a bigger naval force. But with current modern equipment prices and their development costs and having well educated and trained staff and officers being not cheap, there is a limit to how big a Navy we can have. Going forward our navy may well be with less platforms but with more technology available on board those platforms.

Great post! Eventually, the Turkish navy will be going for TF4500 at some point sooner or later.

Two options are available on the table.

1. Armerkom and DPO worked on TF2000 in a way that a new lighter design can be derived. That would be after they finish the contract details concerning the design stage in late 2024.


2. Another option could be that they can start working on a lighter version now from another company that was rivaling the selected company.


I'm not a naval expert however sooner or later we will see a Frigate between the I-Class and the TF-2000 destroyer. Probably something around 5000-7000 tons with different mission profiles. 32 VLS with 32 air defense cells, or 16 air defense cell+ 16 Gezgin.