TR Land Vehicle Programs

[Sanchez]

I don't understand, why Turkish army don't want it if they are going with tracked solution for their future manned IFVs.
Besides, wasn't it designed by the same team that was behind Altay development?

YN-ZMA program does supposedly consist of both tracked and wheeled components. Still waiting for a slimmer of official info tho. What I read few years ago* hinted at wheeled vehicles being the priority and from ACV IFVs being modernized, we can surmise that has not yet changed.

Found it. Per Defence Turk in 2021, First batch will include 362 vehicles, 8x8 IFVs and ARVs and 6x6 command versions.

Yeni Nesil Hafif Zırhlı Araçlar Projesi’nde “Yarışmacılar Sahnede”

IDEF 2021’de kara aracı üreticileri gelişmiş ve yenilikçi ürünler sergiledi

www.defenceturk.net

As per Tulpar winning the tender or not, we'll see.

 

[Afif]

YN-ZMA program does supposedly consist of both tracked and wheeled components. Still waiting for a slimmer of official info tho. What I read few years ago* hinted at wheeled vehicles being the priority and from ACV IFVs being modernized, we can surmise that has not yet changed.

Found it. Per Defence Turk in 2021, First batch will include 362 vehicles, 8x8 IFVs and ARVs and 6x6 command versions.

Yeni Nesil Hafif Zırhlı Araçlar Projesi’nde “Yarışmacılar Sahnede”

IDEF 2021’de kara aracı üreticileri gelişmiş ve yenilikçi ürünler sergiledi

www.defenceturk.net

As per Tulpar winning the tender or not, we'll see.

It is Interesting if for now Turkish military prioritize 8x8 Wheeled IFVs over tracked ones.

While there is no doubt trakced IFV's provide better balsitic protection compared to Wheeled ones, however, as Ukraine conflict is showing direct IFV to IFV battle is rare occurring. And somewhat surprisingly, most of the time just a mine or even a close artillery hit quickly putting these tracked vehicles out of commission by knocking out their tracks. (even if the soldiers are inside remain safe)

On the other hand, 8x8 Wheeled IFV's can still remain mobile after taking significant hits.

While providing the same firepower as their tracked counterparts.

Last bit not the least, modern heavy designs like 38t Boxer or 40t ARMA ii seems to be closing the gap with tracked vehicles when it comes to balsitic protection.

And even the current ARMA I has quite thick composite armor.

I am no armor expert, shouldn't these blocks be able to provides STANAG 4569 level 6 protection or at least level 5?

 

[Era_shield]

It is Interesting if for now Turkish military prioritize 8x8 Wheeled IFVs over tracked ones.

While there is no doubt trakced IFV's provide better balsitic protection compared to Wheeled ones, however, as Ukraine conflict is showing direct IFV to IFV battle is rare occurring. And somewhat surprisingly, most of the time just a mine or even a close artillery hit quickly putting these tracked vehicles out of commission by knocking out their tracks. (even if the soldiers are inside remain safe)

On the other hand, 8x8 Wheeled IFV's can still remain mobile after taking significant hits.
View attachment 59206

While providing the same firepower as their tracked counterparts.

Last bit not the least, modern heavy designs like 38t Boxer or 40t ARMA ii seems to be closing the gap with tracked vehicles when it comes to balsitic protection.

And even the current ARMA I has quite thick composite armor.
View attachment 59207

I am no armor expert, shouldn't these blocks be able to provides STANAG 4569 level 6 protection or at least level 5?

I don't think it's a matter of prioritisation but rather due to the fact that the tracked vehicle needs to operate with the Altay, so it needs to have at least as high a top speed, be procured in similar numbers, etc. IMO once Altay production starts, the tracked IFV vehicle tender will be awarded.

 

[Huelague]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1680172922269310976

The best solution right now.

 

[Stimpy75]

 

[Brave Janissary]

The best solution right now.

With coaxial atgm launcher. From My İdea

 

[AzeriTank]

With coaxial atgm launcher. From My İdea

I believe UGV should have them as eith a small kamilaze drone you will loose the whole IFV with crew members

 

[zio]

It is Interesting if for now Turkish military prioritize 8x8 Wheeled IFVs over tracked ones.

While there is no doubt trakced IFV's provide better balsitic protection compared to Wheeled ones, however, as Ukraine conflict is showing direct IFV to IFV battle is rare occurring. And somewhat surprisingly, most of the time just a mine or even a close artillery hit quickly putting these tracked vehicles out of commission by knocking out their tracks. (even if the soldiers are inside remain safe)

On the other hand, 8x8 Wheeled IFV's can still remain mobile after taking significant hits.
View attachment 59206

While providing the same firepower as their tracked counterparts.

Last bit not the least, modern heavy designs like 38t Boxer or 40t ARMA ii seems to be closing the gap with tracked vehicles when it comes to balsitic protection.

And even the current ARMA I has quite thick composite armor.
View attachment 59207

I am no armor expert, shouldn't these blocks be able to provides STANAG 4569 level 6 protection or at least level 5?

Tracked ones have better mobility on winter and spring than wheeled ones.

 

[Afif]

Tracked ones have better mobility on winter and spring than wheeled ones.

They have better Mobility overall but they loose it very quickly when hit by mine. Unlike wheeled AFVs, which seems to have better mobility in such condition.

 

[boredaf]

Turkish armour with loitering ammunition is coming

Dolanan mühimmatlı Türk zırhlısı geliyor

Nurol Makina, NMS 4X4 Hafif Zırhlı Aracı ilk kez IDEF 2023’te sergiledi. Ağırlığı 8-10 ton olan araca 30 milimetre silah ve yerli olarak geliştirilen dolanan mühimmat entegre edildi. Türk savunma sanayisi bünyesinde geliştirilen zırhlı araçlara NMS Light (YÖRÜK 4X4 Hafif Zırhlı Araç) eklendi...

m5dergi.com

Nurol Makina exhibited the NMS 4X4 Light Armoured Vehicle for the first time at IDEF 2023. The vehicle, which weighs 8-10 tonnes, was integrated with a 30 mm gun and locally developed loitering ammunition.

 

[uçuyorum]

Turkish armour with loitering ammunition is coming

Dolanan mühimmatlı Türk zırhlısı geliyor

Nurol Makina, NMS 4X4 Hafif Zırhlı Aracı ilk kez IDEF 2023’te sergiledi. Ağırlığı 8-10 ton olan araca 30 milimetre silah ve yerli olarak geliştirilen dolanan mühimmat entegre edildi. Türk savunma sanayisi bünyesinde geliştirilen zırhlı araçlara NMS Light (YÖRÜK 4X4 Hafif Zırhlı Araç) eklendi...

m5dergi.com

Nurol Makina exhibited the NMS 4X4 Light Armoured Vehicle for the first time at IDEF 2023. The vehicle, which weighs 8-10 tonnes, was integrated with a 30 mm gun and locally developed loitering ammunition.

Now that looks like something with potential

 

[boredaf]

Now that looks like something with potential

It looks like it'd be great for hit & run attacks, 30 mm gun and loitering munitions with 20 km range is an interesting combination.

 

[Sanchez]

Something we don't usually see. Otokar's Arma based mechanized infantry battalion organization scheme. Heavy emphasis on Alpar UGV on not only on logistic and fire support role but also as part of fire units. I'm literally itching to learn anything new about YN-ZMA at this point.

 

[Afif]

Something we don't usually see. Otokar's Arma based mechanized infantry battalion organization scheme. Heavy emphasis on Alpar UGV on not only on logistic and fire support role but also as part of fire units. I'm literally itching to learn anything new about YN-ZMA at this point.

That looks unique and unprecedented.

Unfortunately, I can’t read Turkish, so it is little bit puzzling.

In the first section above, we have three companies of 14x 14x 14x combat vehicles. forming the combined arms mechanised battalion. (With 2x headquarter vehicle)

However, in the second section (below) I cannot figure out the formations both in the left and right. please, help me out with that.

 

[Osman]

We have a manned unmanned teaming approach.

In a batallion we have:

6 105 mm gun medium tank
15 35 mm afv (manned)
9 35 mm afv (unmanned)
6 atgm carrier (manned)
10 atgm carrier (unmanned)
8 mortar carrier (manned)
2 loitering munition carrier (unmanned)
4 sam carrier (manned) plus 1 radar
4 sam carrier (unmanned)
4 recon arm vehicle (manned)
2 recon arm vehicle (unmanned)
4 sniper carrier vehicle
4 recovery vehicle
4 engineering vehicle
4 for medics

30 4x4
22 trucks for logistics

In total there are 60 armoured manned vehicle and 30 armoured unmanned and 30 4x4 and 22 trucks

 

[Afif]

We have a manned unmanned teaming approach.

In a batallion we have:

6 105 mm gun medium tank
15 35 mm afv (manned)
9 35 mm afv (unmanned)
6 atgm carrier (manned)
10 atgm carrier (unmanned)
8 mortar carrier (manned)
2 loitering munition carrier (unmanned)
4 sam carrier (manned) plus 1 radar
4 sam carrier (unmanned)
4 recon arm vehicle (manned)
2 recon arm vehicle (unmanned)
4 sniper carrier vehicle
4 recovery vehicle
4 engineering vehicle
4 for medics

30 4x4
22 trucks for logistics

In total there are 60 armoured manned vehicle and 30 armoured unmanned and 30 4x4 and 22 trucks

That is a huge list for a battalion.

 

[Sanchez]

That looks unique and unprecedented.

Unfortunately, I can’t read Turkish, so it is little bit puzzling.

In the first section above, we have three companies of 14x 14x 14x combat vehicles. forming the combined arms mechanised battalion. (With 2x headquarter vehicle)

However, in the second section (below) I cannot figure out the formations both in the left and right. please, help me out with that.

2 Companies of 8x8 Arma mech infantry made up of total 6 sections with each section having a wheeled Alpar ATGM carrier in fire support role, while the second section has UGV IFVs, instead of three more Armas. Third company comes with 105mm armed Tulpar light tanks made up of 3 sections, each section with two Alpar IFV UGV.

2 mech infantry companies also have company command and maintenance sections with two Armas each. While for the Tulpar light tank company, it's another Tulpar and a turretless Tulpar in an APC role(?)

Tb.(tabur) Kh.(karargah) ve Kh. Destek Bölüğü is Battalion Command and Support company. Under Battalion command, 2 Arma command vehicles and an Alpar Röle/Relay UGV for commanding UGVs, maybe. Under Bl. Kh or Bölük karargahı, or company command, trucks and jeeps. Follows with a medic section with 4 Arma 8x8s and an anti tank section with ATGM carrier Armas and Alpars, as well as a sniper section in 4 Armas. Last one is the supply section with 12 trucks and 2 Alpar "logistics" variants.

"Battle Support Units" on the right continues with 8 Arma mortar carriers, and two Alpar loitering munition carriers. Air defence team goes on with 4 Arma AD and a command vehicle. No idea what is the SAM on it is supposed to be. And also 4 anti UAV Alpars.

Under it, a 4 Arma sapper section, followed by a 3 Arma recce section, supported by an Alpar UAV recon and an Alpar Recon variant UGV.
An ATGM section with 2 Armas and 2 Alpar ATGM carriers. Followed lastly by a "back support" section of armored engineering vehicles based on Armas and Tulpars.

Pretty comprehensive. As far as I know tho, this is not at all similar to what we currently have, and would require a from scratch design of our mech infantry organizational scheme. Though frankly, we do need a new outlook.

 

[Afif]

2 Companies of 8x8 Arma mech infantry made up of total 6 sections with each section having a wheeled Alpar ATGM carrier in fire support role, while the second section has UGV IFVs, instead of three more Armas. Third company comes with 105mm armed Tulpar light tanks made up of 3 sections, each section with two Alpar IFV UGV.

2 mech infantry companies also have company command and maintenance sections with two Armas each. While for the Tulpar light tank company, it's another Tulpar and a turretless Tulpar in an APC role(?)

Tb.(tabur) Kh.(karargah) ve Kh. Destek Bölüğü is Battalion Command and Support company. Under Battalion command, 2 Arma command vehicles and an Alpar Röle/Relay UGV for commanding UGVs, maybe. Under Bl. Kh or Bölük karargahı, or company command, trucks and jeeps. Follows with a medic section with 4 Arma 8x8s and an anti tank section with ATGM carrier Armas and Alpars, as well as a sniper section in 4 Armas. Last one is the supply section with 12 trucks and 2 Alpar "logistics" variants.

"Battle Support Units" on the right continues with 8 Arma mortar carriers, and two Alpar loitering munition carriers. Air defence team goes on with 4 Arma AD and a command vehicle. No idea what is the SAM on it is supposed to be. And also 4 anti UAV Alpars.

Under it, a 4 Arma sapper section, followed by a 3 Arma recce section, supported by an Alpar UAV recon and an Alpar Recon variant UGV.
An ATGM section with 2 Armas and 2 Alpar ATGM carriers. Followed lastly by a "back support" section of armored engineering vehicles based on Armas and Tulpars.

Pretty comprehensive. As far as I know tho, this is not at all similar to what we currently have, and would require a from scratch design of our mech infantry organizational scheme. Though frankly, we do need a new outlook.

Thank you very much for such detailed answer.
Initially, I was surprised because, usually a typical combined arms mech battalion consist of three companies (+their headquarters) and a battalion headquarter. (in total 44x combat vehicles)
As we know, in a conventional organisational schemes, combat engineer element, air defence/anti UAS element, recon element are usually part of separate formations like engineer battalion, air defence battalion, reconnaissance squadron, etc.

But here, As you said, it is a comprehensive new concept of future mech battalion where all those different elements are made organic to the battalion itself.

However, I think instead of forming separate ATGM section it is operationally more flexible to deploy them within each IFV turrets. (Or maybe they will do that to with Otokar's new turret and separate ATGM section is just bonus)
On the other hand independent loitering ammunition section with UGV looks more attractive.

Also, mortar section with 8x carriers (assuming these will carry 120mm ALKAR) looks quite loaded. But I don’t think any commander would mind extra fire support.

Only thing is seemed to be left out here is, a signal and an electronic warfare section.

 

[Osman]

How many mevhanized battalion do we have? I found a list in wiki for brigades and they are 16

 

[Afif]

How many mevhanized battalion do we have? I found a list in wiki for brigades and they are 16

That would be approximately 48x mech battalions. second largest in the NATO.