TR Casual Discussion TOGG - Türkiye's Automotive Joint Venture Group

Rodeo

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Ahahah, I'm not very photogenic, but I do watch a lot of car reviews for fun.

OTA updates are already enabled, and the cars are connected to Turkcell's cellular network. I don't have much faith in the Togg only app store, but it's probably where apps that have deeper integration to the car will go. I think it'd be wise not to get fooled by the hubris of companies like Lucid and Tesla which don't provide CarPlay or Android Auto. Let's be real, Facebook isn't going to make a WhatsApp client for Togg. That is one of my biggest worries on the software side.

As for driving assistance, right now it appears they are (rightly) focused on fundamental ADAS features as opposed to full self driving capability. A lot of the safety systems I mentioned are now requirements for a five star EuroNCAP rating, so they are of paramount importance. Nevertheless, the sensors and hardware for more advanced ADAS are certainly there.

Tesla is now adamant on computer vision, but the T10X has a mix of ultrasonic (left, right, front, rear), radar (front), and 360 color camera sensors. I counted five wide angle cameras: two in the front (for stereoscopy), two on each mirror, and one in the rear. Tesla Vision has eight, with a mix of telephoto (to make up for lack of radar) and wide angle. I'm not convinced that in a world of humans driving, FSD will ever be possible. Especially in TR, where traffic rules are merely a suggestion. However, I think if/when Togg gets serious about FSD, it'd be great if they collaborated (or acquired) Turkish start-up ADASTEC—they made the software of the fully autonomous Karsan bus now operating in Norway.
Tesla has removed all the sensors but the cameras. They're going vision-only and they proceed to have single software stack with unsupervised learning with the enormous amount of data they're collection from their fleet. But I too don't believe full self driving is possible, for at least 10 years. They're leading the sector but Musk is, typically, overselling his product.

For TOGG, what I don't get is, why the narrow ultra long screen? What purpose does it serve? You can't utilize it properly with that aspect ratio. Is that just a gimmick? And why does the car not have a frunk(front trunk)?
 

Xenon54

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Is there data available about the crash tests?
 

moz68k

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Tesla has removed all the sensors but the cameras. They're going vision-only and they proceed to have single software stack with unsupervised learning with the enormous amount of data they're collection from their fleet. But I too don't believe full self driving is possible, for at least 10 years. They're leading the sector but Musk is, typically, overselling his product.

For TOGG, what I don't get is, why the narrow ultra long screen? What purpose does it serve? You can't utilize it properly with that aspect ratio. Is that just a gimmick? And why does the car not have a frunk(front trunk)?
I agree, vision is limited by weather conditions, so I think Musk's stubbornness will eventually backfire. XPeng seem to be more grounded in reality, going all-in on LIDAR.

There are differing opinions on vertical vs horizontal infotainment displays. The dedicated lower control screen is a good idea if laid out properly. I feel it won't be that much worse than a normal dash once you get used to it. The wide center screen is usually split into 3 sections each about ~7 inches. So think of it like having 3 small tablets in landscape mode taped to your dash. The front passenger has easy access to the rightmost two. I guess when the software matures they could be watching a Netflix series on one, and doing something else on the other, without the need for a smartphone, which could be cradled in the wireless charger underneath the driver's armrest. All the while, the rightmost portion has the GPS for the driver. I was also told they already have a "tall" mode, so you can merge the lower screen and the leftmost upper screen in some circumstances. You also have an ultra wide mode basically for flexing. There were some cool looking screensavers.


The lack of frunk was a disappointment, but even VW failed that. The hidden compartment in the trunk kinda makes up for it since most Tesla drivers put their charging cables there. Tesla is still the leader in packaging, no doubt.
 

Xenon54

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I think NCAP is at least year long process. It requires a nomination by NCAP itself, and was recently updated to include child presence detection for 5 stars, so that interior camera makes more sense now.
But there sure must be crash testing done by TOGG internally, didnt they publish anything yet?
 

moz68k

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But there sure must be crash testing done by TOGG internally, didnt they publish anything yet?
I've never seen a car company that does that (maybe Volvo). It wouldn't inspire a lot of confidence anyway ("bozacının şahidi şıracı"-type of situation). Karakas said they're aiming for, and are confident that they'll get 5 stars. Probably, but they have to get the ADAS right these days. On paper, NCAP usually buys a car from the market anonymously, tests it, then releases its rating without the company's knowledge. Time will tell.
 

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Is gunsel B9 finished and will be sold in TURKIYE Soon?
 

what

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Let me tell you about the stupidity of the all camera set up in Tesla cars.
My windscreen wipers are shit, cameras dont recognize rain or to late or not in the right intensity.
Resulting in me pushing the button manually everytime it rains. A €10 rain sensor could have done a better job.
 

Agha Sher

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More details on TOGGs plans. This is looking very promising.

  1. Current production rate of 100 units per day. Being scaled gradually to meet 28K production target by end of 2023
  2. First export to the EU planned for Q1 2025
  3. 1 million production capacity by 2030 (A bit disappointed about this target, but they can always adjust it upwards)
  4. Siro is going to become an integrated energy storage producer in 2026
  5. Siro will reach 20 GWh of generation capacity by 2030 and will produce with the target of exceeding 50 GWh by 2035

 

Zafer

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More details on TOGGs plans. This is looking very promising.

  1. Current production rate of 100 units per day. Being scaled gradually to meet 28K production target by end of 2023
  2. First export to the EU planned for Q1 2025
  3. 1 million production capacity by 2030 (A bit disappointed about this target, but they can always adjust it upwards)
  4. Siro is going to become an integrated energy storage producer in 2026
  5. Siro will reach 20 GWh of generation capacity by 2030 and will produce with the target of exceeding 50 GWh by 2035


1 million is not the yearly capacity but the total number of cars to be produced until 2030. Planned capacity for 2030 is at 175k with room to double this number.
 

Lool

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I went to the dealership in Ankara, sat in both the black and white interiors (+/- moonroof—yes—it doesn't open, like most EVs).

Interior and Exterior

The interior quality is very similar to VW products. The main exception were the few buttons and switches that were present. They felt more like a Fiat. The infotainment wheel and gear selector, for example, were disappointingly flimsy, piano black plastic controls with spongy actuation. The wheel stalks were also, frankly, a bit flimsy but better than most Stellantis products. The indicator stalk thankfully locks in place with enough force, unlike some BMWs. There weren't any creaks from what I could tell. The interior trim is wood textured hard plastic for the white int., and textured aluminum for the black int. I'd suggest people adjust their expectations on interior quality, there are a lot of hard plastics, especially in the rear (again, VW style). Surfaces that seem like metal are actually plastic, but at least they're matte. Togg never claimed this was a premium SUV, and you already get a lot of car for the price, so I'm fine with it. I've also been in the Model 3, most surfaces feel slightly better in it, but they weren't great either. I feel the build quality is probably better in the Togg, even if it doesn't feel as good. Panel gaps are already on par with most legacy car manufacturers, unlike Tesla.

The seats were comfortable, better than most in its class. The white interior was stained by blue jeans, but that's to be expected since I suspect that particular model got a lot of posterior traffic. The faux leather was soft and high quality. The rear legroom is great and the interior feels very airy, especially when equipped with the moonroof. There are large compartments under each door, the rear center seat has a flap you pull to reveal a small center armrest with two cup holders, nothing special. The rear vent stemming from the pedestal has buttons for the accompanying left and right heated seats, and unfortunately just one USB-C socket (this one broke my heart, a lot of kids will fight over this port). ISOFIX covers fold up and stay attached, so you can't lose them. There are RGB lighting accents along the upper door and center console trims. Lighting overall is quite good. The electronically operated trunk is very spacious, with a hidden lower compartment for charging cables, first aid and tire repair kits. There is no kick-to-open for the trunk, but I honestly couldn't care less. There's a 12V car plug just next to some hangers and tie-down anchors for shopping. I was told the 12V can power the included tire inflator. The cargo divider is intuitive and rolls back when pulled. The rear seats can fold in a 60:40 split. However, there is no ski passthrough. The exterior colors are all metallic except the Pamukkale (base) color. They're well executed, with a tasteful amount of metallic flake. The car looks bigger in person, tall compared to its class for ample headroom. It is also definitely even more handsome in person. The pictures don't do the side body lines justice, making the sides look flat and dull (they aren't). The Meridian sound system was very good, beyond my expectations. The volume was limited due to idiots maxing it out, but from what I could tell, the sound was very clean, with smooth bass, mids, and highs. The interior didn't echo like the Model 3, even with when optioned with the moonroof. Regarding maintenance: Bosch mechanics will be able to carry out basic maintenance, your car will be picked up by Togg for more in depth repairs. There will be a battery recycling and restoration service in the near future.

Infotainment and Software

The upper displays are bright and crisp. The lower control screen is less higher quality but probably on purpose, since it's tucked below, in the shade, and doesn't really show a lot of visually complex things, just controls. The wide central display is also touch-enabled. The steering wheel was much higher quality than expected, though the haptic touch controls on it will require some getting used to. The UI/UX needs a lot of simplification, but mostly smooth and responsive. A heavily modified version of Android automotive is all but confirmed by the overscroll effects in some of the settings menus. Even the map was smooth, I asked the staff if they knew the map sources but they didn't know it off the top of their heads. I suspect they use TomTom. The maps app has built-in planning for stops to Togg chargers along your route.

The lower control display is comfortable to operate since you can rest your arm on the center pedestal. A bar at the bottom of this display has your fixed controls like AC and seat heating. A swipe from the top of this display reveals quick settings much like iOS or Android. At the end of your arm rest, there are two hidden buttons for adjusting regen. braking from one pedal driving to almost none at all. The iDrive-like control wheel felt a bit half baked for now, since it wasn't that well integrated with the touch UI. Though, I'd rather have the option than nothing at all. I also appreciate the intuitive physical gear selector (*cough* Tesla), even though it's a little cheap feeling. The main problem regarding complexity is the sheer volume and density of controls in some screens (e.g., AC, media), an utter lack thereof in others (e.g., the settings). Speaking of AC, it's a bit loud on startup from outside, but it quickly quiets down in ~30s. The loudness could be exaggerated by the lack of engine noise, so it might just be normal. I recall the Model 3, also making a lot weird noises. It's a damn good AC unit wrt. cooling, even during 44.5C heatwave. Adjusting it with the current UI is a bit finicky, requiring a tap on the l/r (sync) temperatures before fan speed and temps can be adjusted by swiping.

There's a pretty complete driver assistance and safety suite. Radar cruise control, lane departure warning, collision avoidance, blind spot monitoring, automatic parking, and drowsiness monitoring. I asked about lane change assist on highways and they said it was in the pipeline. I also asked whether autonomous driving would be possible in the future, but they said they were (correctly) worried about implementing such things in TR. That being said, the car is equipped with a 360 camera system, and ultrasonic sensors. The 3D parking camera is smoother than even current BMWs. They even demonstrated how they were able to eliminate camera stitching artifacts in a recent update, so the engineers are definitely at work. One thing that was sorely missing, and one that I greatly emphasized was the lack of a driver distraction prevention system. In cars with a lot of distracting screens, most use eye tracking to turn certain ones off when the driver's gaze wonders. Since the car is already equipped with a driver facing IR camera (for drowsiness) I believe this will be implemented soon. There's also an interior rear facing wide angle camera with a privacy shutter. I wasn't impressed by the superfluous selfie app, but more for the future possibility of detecting children or pets, teleconferencing in a pickle, etc.

Overall, the software is surprisingly competent for a first version, and is built on a solid foundation with excellent underlying hardware. The app store is limited but there were a few new apps since earlier reviews, like Migros Sanal Market (not surprising, since Migros TR is now owned by Anadolu group). I hope it grows, but don't see this happening. Because of this, I believe CarPlay and Android Auto must be integrated, but Togg is still quiet on this subject. On the brighter side, though the staff didn't know this, I have some acquaintances with insider information on the ongoing work simplifying Togg's UI/UX. Futhermore, I heard one staff member let slip the term they use for early customers—testers—so they seem intent on listening to feedback.

Closing Remarks

The dealership was well-laid out and visually appealing, and the staff were very enthusiastic, attentive, and quite knowledgeable. I was even offered a surprisingly good cup of drip coffee which I didn't expect. I wasn't able to take a T10X for a test drive, but I did witness a truckload of Toggs (10) being offloaded by a Bursa-registered vehicle. Staff outside were walking customers through their new cars. Employees told me how there was indeed a ramp-up in deliveries in August, and that they expected this pace to accelerate. One customer later drove off to Eskisehir Yolu with their new T10X, attracting a lot of attention from many teens and adults alike (which put a smile on my face). I was told sales for the 4WD version will begin with a 29th of October special edition. Politics aside, I sincerely hope Togg succeeds, there's so much potential.
Really good analysis
But I would like to clarify though, all in all, would you prefer to buy a Togg rather than other brands or is Togg still lacking compared to its competitors?
Like how much would you give it out of 10 compared to its competitora for example
 

B_A

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I hope T10s and other brand such as GUNCEL come into market as soon as possible
 

godel44

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I am still waiting for electric trucks and transporters. The conventional ones cause a large part of the environmental pollution and are mostly responsible for oil-related inflation in food and pretty much everything else.
 

uçuyorum

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I am still waiting for electric trucks and transporters. The conventional ones cause a large part of the environmental pollution and are mostly responsible for oil-related inflation in food and pretty much everything else.
Could those lower the prices though?
 

godel44

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Could those lower the prices though?
Transportation costs are a substantial part of pretty much every consumer staple and lowering them would be tremendously helpful. In agricultural production there is additional opportunity to further remove imported oil from the equation by using electric tractors for which the government had a project. Of course prices proved to be sticky on the upswing in Turkey due to a large bubble component but managing the bubble is another story.

At the end of the day the whole point of this project is lower energy imports, lower transportation costs to the whole economy, less pollution and cheaper transportation for masses. The details of TOGG itself are interesting if you are an automobile enthusiast. Which is also why I would like to see domestic electric trucks, maybe from the Koc group.
 

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I am still waiting for electric trucks and transporters. The conventional ones cause a large part of the environmental pollution and are mostly responsible for oil-related inflation in food and pretty much everything else.
Replacing every truck and transporter with an electric one in a 1-to-1 basis isn't the solution. This requires a smarter approach with a through look to the supply chains and the movement of the goods, and finding better, cheaper ways to transport them.
 

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Let me tell you about the stupidity of the all camera set up in Tesla cars.
My windscreen wipers are shit, cameras dont recognize rain or to late or not in the right intensity.
Resulting in me pushing the button manually everytime it rains. A €10 rain sensor could have done a better job.
Meanwhile Turkish people;

I was fascinated when i found out some cars do turn it on automatically.
 
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