TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[uçuyorum]

Is putting machine guns on sides also an option? Shouldn't be too difficult if needed right? I wonder if 12.7 or even Venom LR would be possible, would be interesting

 

[Sanchez]

Is putting machine guns on sides also an option? Shouldn't be too difficult if needed right? I wonder if 12.7 or even Venom LR would be possible, would be interesting

Should be possible physically. Wildcat has it.

 

[uçuyorum]

Should be possible physically. Wildcat has it.

It seems like we have everything needed to make a wildcat except seaspray radar. We have the heli of same weight and size, we have engines of same power level in fact aren't they same engines on first 3 ? We have the ASELFLIR400D for electro optics, we have Kuzgun TJ instead of Sea Venom, we have dipping sonar, we are making lightweight torpedo. It seems we just need to make helva?

 

[Sanchez]

It seems like we have everything needed to make a wildcat except seaspray radar. We have the heli of same weight and size, we have engines of same power level in fact aren't they same engines on first 3 ? We have the ASELFLIR400D for electro optics, we have Kuzgun TJ instead of Sea Venom, we have dipping sonar, we are making lightweight torpedo. It seems we just need to make helva?

It seems to be heading this way. T925 is not possible for frigates. Unless we get more Seahawks, it'll be T625 for the navy. Ant it will have to be a specialized version as well.

Specialized naval helis are damn expensive and are very complex. It'll be a hard task.

Per Sünnetçi, first 3 for gendarme will be powered by the T800, while for the second batch of 17 they are planning to use the TS1400, which is not yet certified. I think we won't see the second batch for at least a year after the first 3 are delivered. So it's good news, but also bad news.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1696612417508159911

 

[Khagan1923]

https://x.com/brahmsnnetc1/status/1698998250521468948?s=46&t=VVCq6eT3J7GfxF42OPg3EA

Following the successful entry into service of GÖKBEY, it is expected that the T629 (ATAK 1.5), which will have the same engines, transmission and rotary assembly as GÖKBEY, but will be an armed version of it, will also be on the agenda. If this happens, the remaining T129 ATAK order can be converted to the T629, and the embargo-related problems currently experienced with the ATAK helicopter, as well as the helicopter's technical capabilities, can be solved with a 6-ton class indigenous armed helicopter with a higher payload capacity and slightly more powerful engines.

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I talked about this possibility years ago. Looks like it might happen.

 

[boredaf]

https://x.com/brahmsnnetc1/status/1698998250521468948?s=46&t=VVCq6eT3J7GfxF42OPg3EA

Following the successful entry into service of GÖKBEY, it is expected that the T629 (ATAK 1.5), which will have the same engines, transmission and rotary assembly as GÖKBEY, but will be an armed version of it, will also be on the agenda. If this happens, the remaining T129 ATAK order can be converted to the T629, and the embargo-related problems currently experienced with the ATAK helicopter, as well as the helicopter's technical capabilities, can be solved with a 6-ton class indigenous armed helicopter with a higher payload capacity and slightly more powerful engines.

————————

I talked about this possibility years ago. Looks like it might happen.

T629 mock up Tusas has shown before looked nothing like Gökbey, it was much slimmer. They must've scrapped that idea altogether or change its name afterwards.

 

[Anmdt]

It seems to be heading this way. T925 is not possible for frigates. Unless we get more Seahawks, it'll be T625 for the navy. Ant it will have to be a specialized version as well.

Specialized naval helis are damn expensive and are very complex. It'll be a hard task.

Per Sünnetçi, first 3 for gendarme will be powered by the T800, while for the second batch of 17 they are planning to use the TS1400, which is not yet certified. I think we won't see the second batch for at least a year after the first 3 are delivered. So it's good news, but also bad news.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1696612417508159911

T625 does not fullfill the gap of Seahawks. May tow dipping sonar around, but carrying LWT, Missiles etc, fitting consoles inside will not be possible. Also bare in mind that necessity for extra power to land on rogue seas, sturdy landing gears, hook mechanism etc will add additional weight.

It may however serve duty but definitely not not replacing Seahawks, it will be a downgrade. Moreover, i doubt if Navy will continue using the helicopters for deploying dipping sonars (possible to be replaced by USVs).

 

[Sanchez]

T625 does not fullfill the gap of Seahawks. May tow dipping sonar around, but carrying LWT, Missiles etc, fitting consoles inside will not be possible. Also bare in mind that necessity for extra power to land on rogue seas, sturdy landing gears, hook mechanism etc will add additional weight.

It may however serve duty but definitely not not replacing Seahawks, it will be a downgrade. Moreover, i doubt if Navy will continue using the helicopters for deploying dipping sonars (possible to be replaced by USVs).

Unless a T725 is coming, it'll either be more Seahawks or T625. Wildcat, which is at a similar weight has a fixed aesa radar, can carry torpedos, sonobuoys, 20 Martlet LMMs etc. It's also powered by the same engine we have on T129, which we want our own engine for T625 to match.

Unless they are thinking more Seahawks will be delivered when we ask for them, it will have to be T625. T925 being this big is also somewhat related to the navy as Kotil said. They can't have their cake and eat it too, a lighter AW101 will never work on frigates, going by dimensions it was never even planned to be used on frigates.

And I really don't see us ordering more Seahawks and US accepting it anytime soon. Another blunder on procurement planning by SSM and MSB? Very much possible. In that case, they'll either slim the T925, or go with T625 anyhow.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Unless a T725 is coming, it'll either be more Seahawks or T625. Wildcat, which is at a similar weight has a fixed aesa radar, can carry torpedos, sonobuoys, 20 Martlet LMMs etc. It's also powered by the same engine we have on T129, which we want our own engine for T625 to match.

Unless they are thinking more Seahawks will be delivered when we ask for them, it will have to be T625. T925 being this big is also somewhat related to the navy as Kotil said. They can't have their cake and eat it too, a lighter AW101 will never work on frigates, going by dimensions it was never even planned to be used on frigates.

And I really don't see us ordering more Seahawks and US accepting it anytime soon. Another blunder on procurement planning by SSM and MSB? Very much possible. In that case, they'll either slim the T925, or go with T625 anyhow.

Helicopters like Seahawks for combatant vessels are essentially what gives them top end destructive assault capability when it comes to ASW , ASUW and EW. As mentioned by @Anmdt , as well as their electronics and EW suites, their missile and light torpedo carrying capabilities et al are all vital for the ships.
As far as I know we do not possess technology to manufacture helicopters that are marine capable. If Tusas somehow can produce helicopters that are suitable for marine operations, then the sooner they start tackling this problem the better.
Every single part of the helicopter that can be exposed to sea-air has to be produced to a higher standard. That includes all mechanical and electronic parts as well as certain engine parts (in fact a sea helicopter has to have a navalised engine) . Then there is the overall construction that needs to be robust enough to withstand harsh landings and environments.
According to below Bloomberg news piece, Norway is buying 6 Seahawk helicopters for a whopping price of 1.1billion dollars.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

Last year Spain ordered 8 Seahawks for a price of 950 million dollars.
It covers in addition to the helicopters, 4 spare engines, 32 AGM-114R(N) Hellfire missiles, all up rounds; two Hellfire II Captive Air Training Missiles, along with a variety of other weapons and associated equipment.

Spain cleared to buy $950M worth of MH-60R helicopters - Breaking Defense

The announcement comes as Spain works to upgrade other parts of its helicopter fleet.

breakingdefense.com

So buying helicopters is not cheap. We have to build them ourselves. Also just like new planes, if we want to integrate indigenous weapons, that means more costs.
If we build them ourselves, there is a big market there that we can tap in to. US has been milking them (and us) all these years. We should have a piece of that cake as well.

 

[Quasar]

 

[Sanchez]

Saffet Uyanık says as there are issues with procuring sufficient numbers of engines from Ukraine for T925/T929, T629 development will be accelerated. T925 will be going forward while T929 will be on the backburner.

 

[Bürküt]

Saffet Uyanık says as there are issues with procuring sufficient numbers of engines from Ukraine for T925/T929, T629 development will be accelerated. T925 will be going forward while T929 will be on the backburner.

T629 is a greedy project that should not be exist.We are not US or China.Why do we have 3 attack helicopter projects at the same time.

 

[Zafer]

Atak is a partnership with Italy and does not actually count for a true Turkish product, so T629 is destined to come true so that we can make and sell as many as we want.

 

[Heartbang]

T925 will be going forward while T929 will be on the backburner.

There's no reason for them to do that unless they plan to adopt the T925 for the naval/ASW use.
This confuses me because everyone who saw the T925 says its absolutely MASSIVE and will possibly have fitment issues in the ship hangars.

 

[Sanchez]

There's no reason for them to do that unless they plan to adopt the T925 for the naval/ASW use.
This confuses me because everyone who saw the T925 says its absolutely MASSIVE and will possibly have fitment issues in the ship hangars.

In my opinion, T625, T629 and T925 will all be navalized. DzKK needs all three for different roles.

 

[Heartbang]

In my opinion, T625, T629 and T925 will all be navalized. DzKK needs all three for different roles.

Well yeah, but as you'd know, the need for Seahawk's are rather urgent.
Therefore, the priority might be placed in navalized T925's and T629's.

 

[Khagan1923]

T629 is a greedy project that should not be exist.We are not US or China.Why do we have 3 attack helicopter projects at the same time.

T-129 license runs out in 2028 which means even if TAI scores more exports they won't be able to sell anymore T-129 from 2028(which is in 4 years btw) unless they agree with Leonardo to extend the license which will most likely cost 8 to 9 figures if not even more, we also don't know if this means TAI won't be able to work on the fuselage at all meaning there is a chance we would need to sit down with the Italians just to upgrade the T-129 fleet in a couple years.. There also have been numerous problems with the Italians as much as everything is potraid sunshiney.

T-129 also has some defiancies such as its feeding mechanism for the turret as the A-129 was never meant to have a turret in the first place. MMW Radars or Satcom can't be placed on the helicopter without restricting its armaments. Also some other points are touched upon in the video such as restrictions for export and other embargos applied on us which is the biggest reason why T-629 seems to have been greenlit over the last few months coupled with performance related demands the revelant parts have been marked.

I also think this move has some parts to do with the fact that we straight up do not have a engine for the T-929 project but we do have a engine for the T-629. It would be slightly larger than the T-129, weigh more (5T vs 6T) and be able to operate under heavier load such as more armaments, MMW Radar, SATCOM etc. Also no embargo threats and no problems when exporting the chopper to another country.

It will share parts with Gökbey which also would make them both a lethal combo in the export market.

Also I do not think that the T-129 will continue to run after 2028 nor do I think will the T-629 arrive earlier than 2028. The goal here is most likely to have a ITAR free chopper that solves the performance related criticism by the user and allows TAI to export it freely to other countries.

There was a proposed Phase-III upgrade that I summarized last year here which then was reported to have been cancelled for some reason. Now I think we know why. Those upgrades will be implemented with T-629 instead of wasting more money on the T-129.

It also can be navalized from the get go and be used by the Navy on Anadolu as well.

There are good reasons for this project. And I for one am happy that it was revived.

Saffet Uyanık says as there are issues with procuring sufficient numbers of engines from Ukraine for T925/T929, T629 development will be accelerated. T925 will be going forward while T929 will be on the backburner.

TS3000 should have been made a priority. This engine issue will most likely delay the T-929 by years. Which most likely also plays a small part why T-629 was "revived". Now I am interest how they mean to solve the engine issue for the T-925 project though? Maybe divert to American Engines (T701) in the hopes the US will allow it as it will be mainly a transport chopper and not combat? I don't really see any other alternatives. Are there any british engines they could go for? But even if there is won't that be a nightmare leading to re-designing the chopper and just straight up a maintance nightmare for the TSK.

 

[B_A]

Didn't attack helicopter a outdated weapon system?

Russian had many type of attack helicopters Ka50,ka52,mi-28 and lost so many.

American use AH64 and AH1 for many years and no new design

Japanese is to give up all the attack helicopters

Of course, naval Heli is necessary.

 

[Zafer]

Do Russians have suitable engines for the T929, perhaps they do.

 

[B_A]

Do Russians have suitable engines for the T929, perhaps they do.

They had the same TV3-117 for their Mi-28 didn't them?