TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Sanchez]

There is good possibility in case of Typhoon sale to Türkiye, France can block the sale of Meteor. Could UK sale Meteor from RAF inventory too? Will RAF agree to it?

Meteor is one thing. Will we be able to add our own systems, even our weapons to them whether they are new built or second hand?

From a technical, organizational and conceptual look, this potential deal is a mess and the official talks for it and its details would take years to conclude if we were in a good timeline. We are not in a good timeline. We don't even know if we have a political crisis with Germany right now or not.

Do we get to add our own weapons? How do we do it? As 33% shareholder of the Eurofighter program, would Germany let us near the systems? Would we need to give the most intricate details of our new systems, like Gökdoğan to say Spain or UK to have them certify it for Typhoon? Do we want to do this?

In the case of a fresh built fleet, do we get offset deals? Do we get to build parts of the aircraft? Do we become a part of the consortium? Do we get to build our own spares for small things that don't cost much but can ground a fleet? How willing are Spanish and Brits are to push the Germans? They didn't push enough for Saudi deal.

If an EF-2000 purchase does happen, what's the timeline? Presumably 1 or 2 squadrons are to be purchased. When do we get FOC for both of them? 5-8 years?

If we get second hand aircraft from Spain and UK, can we modernize them without Germany's acceptance and equipment support? If it can be done without them, can we afford such an increase in cost neccesitated by German removal?

Few things are clear. Our fighters are the most obsolete in the region compared to our regional rivals except for Iran. In a world even Iraq is in talks to get Rafales, we cannot keep an edge with short of breathe legacy F-16s. In a future where we try to extend our geopolitical footprint, F-16s alone won't also be able to cover enough ground whether with Özgür or B70.

Light of our eyes, Kaan will not be combat ready in number before at least 15 years, if things go according to plan. And our plans never go according to plan. We don't have a substitute for F110s. We will never have a substitute during Kaan's development. Kaan's development is frozen for at least 2 decades unless Americans give us the engines. Adding more, Can we entrust our airspace to a radar that has not yet even flown, a flying wing drone that hasn't yet even flown and a fighter drone prototype with underpowered Ukrainian engines? Can we afford to wait 15-20 more years for our own stuff to mature?

We wasted almost 10 years doing nothing. We set out to have near total air force independence from the US in the future and we are more dependent on them than we were ever before. Greece did what we currently aim to do with the EF-2000 purchase more than 20 years ago. When they understood that they couldn't trust US against us, decided to diversify, and they went to the French and got Mirages. That relationship grew and grew and 25 years later, they now operate best of what France has to offer and they also got a joint defence agreement out of it. War with Greece for Turkey means war with France as well, they are now military allies. France is treaty bound to defend Greece.

We missed the diversification train in more than 3 occasions. Europeans tried to sell us their aircraft multiple times. They offered Tornado in 80s, Italians offered Eurofighter in 2000s and Brits offered another Typhoon deal in 2010s. We never took the step that mattered in any of these cases. When we joined in on those programs, our air force flourished, like when we got CN-235s and A400Ms.

I'm always fine with being the pessimist. I also can't claim to know if such a deal would for the best or even if it's possible. But in a world where we can't trust US to do simplest things and while both our fighter projects hang in the balance between their two fingers, we cannot allow to NOT diversify our air force. If anything, this might just be push Americans enough to play ball in a more level field, like what drones did for us in the last decade. We had to take these actions 30, 20 or 10 years ago. Next best time is tomorrow, and I will whole heartedly support it if it happens no matter the details. Even a squadron of Tranche 1s with AIM-120s would be a net positive. If Greece can operate 3 types(soon 4) of fighters, we can afford it as well.

 

[Afif]

Well….the situation is not ideal, on that I agree.

But I do think F-16 fleets with Ozgur update combining the capabilities of MURAD and GOKHAN can definitely mitigate the advantage of Rafale in the neighbourhood if not give an edge. However, if takes to 2027 for first batch of 35 F16 block 30 to be upgraded with Ozgur, it is not fast enough.

 

[TheInsider]

Well….the situation is not ideal, on that I agree.

But I do think F-16 fleets with Ozgur update combining the capabilities of MURAD and GOKHAN can definitely mitigate the advantage of Rafale in the neighbourhood if not give an edge. However, if takes to 2027 for first batch of 35 F16 block 30 to be upgraded with Ozgur, it is not fast enough.

Well if it is guaranteed that we will get 35 F-16 Özgür with MURAD and Gökhan ready with full operational capability I think it is worth the wait. 36 months is not a long time.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Spain recently had their TR1 updated to TR2+ level with a lot of Tranche 3 electronics fitted in, at the Spanish Airbus factories.
If you check UK sites in detail , especially UK MOD sites, there are reports that TR1 FGR4 planes can be updated to Tranche 3 - 4 level. But the cost is “prohibitively expensive due to budgetary constraints” as they put it. So they chose to retire their TR1.
So if you are prepared to spend the money it can be done. But it needs major work.

You didn't get it.

To increase TR1 to TR2 or TR3, you have to expand everything (really all 40 mission computers) and install new mission computers, but this must include all 40 upgraded mission computers as an app so that DASS also does its job. And that's extremely expensive.

Blame it, MOTOROLA 68020 processors. Well-known computer systems in which Motorola 68020 processors were used are the Apple Macintosh II, the Sun workstations of the 3 series, the Amiga 1200 and the Amiga CD³² as well as the control compensation computers of the EF2000 Eurofighter, without which it could not be kept stable in the air.

 

[I_Love_F16]

Well….the situation is not ideal, on that I agree.

But I do think F-16 fleets with Ozgur update combining the capabilities of MURAD and GOKHAN can definitely mitigate the advantage of Rafale in the neighbourhood if not give an edge. However, if takes to 2027 for first batch of 35 F16 block 30 to be upgraded with Ozgur, it is not fast enough.

MURAD was integrated for testing not so long ago and we don’t even know if there is a prototype for Gökhan yet. I would say 2028 at the minimum if not more.

 

[Peter66]

If i was Turkiye i will do this :
1- Buy 100 of J-10 if possible install Turkish sytems and give them to Jandarma air force (not army air force)

But its too late , this should be done 2010-2015. Now even if we order fighters they will come after 4-5 years when KAAN will become active so just work hard on national fighters .

Aslo Turkiye is buying western airbus planes this is aslo wrong , Turkiye should work with china , Russia, Brasil and buy at least regional planes from them and buy only some 20 intercontinental planes from west
Western world is in decline and better to split our roads now then whem becames too late .

It has been a long time that I read anything stupid on this level right here

 

[BalkanTurk90]

It has been a long time that I read anything stupid on this level right here

Stupid ?!
Do you know that our Country Turkiye Air force right now is behind 4 regional air forces by number of modern aircrafts
-Israel
-S Arabia
- Egypt
-Soon Greece
All of them will have larger and modern air force now tell me whats 'Stupid' That i ask to buy more fighter jets for our country??!
90 million population , 1.3 trillion dollar
4 trillion PPP and has only 230 f16 1 engine small half old of 1970 aircrafts .
Very stupid haaaa?? Lower number than greek 10 million and poor 3world egypt haaaa??

 

[Sanchez]

"The Chancellor did not go into the Eurofighter issue at all. In other words, he did not comment on the point of 'we will give it or not'. We have already given our answer clearly.

If they give us these planes, they give them to us, and if they don't, do we have no doors to knock on? Very much. You know what steps were taken before the S400 in air defense systems? America did not give us the air defense systems it was supposed to give, so we bought S400 from Russia.

We have S400s right now. Inshallah, we will continue on our way in a much stronger way.

We are on our way to becoming a country that produces and uses its own weapons. We are also taking steps to permanently meet our needs in terms of fighter jets."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1725876157692743944

I think they still fail to see that this not so veiled threat of turning to Russia for defence procurement works as they intend it to be. Turkey's S-400 is not a threat for Europeans. Just like a possible Russian aircraft will not be. It will just hasten our defence architecture's removal from NATO, as it did with F-35. Buying Russian is even worse than buying nothing, surprisingly.

I'm not even adding on S-400's availability, mostly due to politics.

 

[GoatsMilk]

"The Chancellor did not go into the Eurofighter issue at all. In other words, he did not comment on the point of 'we will give it or not'. We have already given our answer clearly.

If they give us these planes, they give them to us, and if they don't, do we have no doors to knock on? Very much. You know what steps were taken before the S400 in air defense systems? America did not give us the air defense systems it was supposed to give, so we bought S400 from Russia.

We have S400s right now. Inshallah, we will continue on our way in a much stronger way.

We are on our way to becoming a country that produces and uses its own weapons. We are also taking steps to permanently meet our needs in terms of fighter jets."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1725876157692743944

I think they still fail to see that this not so veiled threat of turning to Russia for defence procurement works as they intend it to be. Turkey's S-400 is not a threat for Europeans. Just like a possible Russian aircraft will not be. It will just hasten our defence architecture's removal from NATO, as it did with F-35. Buying Russian is even worse than buying nothing, surprisingly.

I'm not even adding on S-400's availability, mostly due to politics.

They don't understand the game. For Turkiye to have leverage she has to walk the tight rope, but the moment she falls to either side completely she ends up getting screwed by both sides.

You go Russian you force the west to shut the doors on you since you sided with their rival, now Russia sees the west has closed the doors on you she realises she can screw you harder since your now dependent on Russia and don't have options.

The trick was to always leave the idea that if the west messes around that you could got east, that fear of going east gains you some favours and concessions. But the moment you actually do you lose on both sides.

This government is a complete disaster. Erdogan is a terrible statesman.

Syria is a good example of how when you fail both sides even work together to screw you.

Imagine we are 20 to 30 years away from being completely self sufficient in military matters, instead of playing things smoothly and calmly they have created as much trouble as possible for the Turkish defence industry.

 

[ClaudeJ]

"The Chancellor did not go into the Eurofighter issue at all. In other words, he did not comment on the point of 'we will give it or not'. We have already given our answer clearly.

If they give us these planes, they give them to us, and if they don't, do we have no doors to knock on? Very much. You know what steps were taken before the S400 in air defense systems? America did not give us the air defense systems it was supposed to give, so we bought S400 from Russia.

We have S400s right now. Inshallah, we will continue on our way in a much stronger way.

We are on our way to becoming a country that produces and uses its own weapons. We are also taking steps to permanently meet our needs in terms of fighter jets."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1725876157692743944

I think they still fail to see that this not so veiled threat of turning to Russia for defence procurement works as they intend it to be. Turkey's S-400 is not a threat for Europeans. Just like a possible Russian aircraft will not be. It will just hasten our defence architecture's removal from NATO, as it did with F-35. Buying Russian is even worse than buying nothing, surprisingly.

I'm not even adding on S-400's availability, mostly due to politics.

As far as I know, it's from the pre-meeting press conference. And the chancellor's answer to that question from the press was cut out.

Live: German Chancellor Scholz and Turkish President Erdogan to deliver statements | DW News

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is in Berlin for talks with Chancellor Olaf Scholz.Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/user/deutschewelleenglish?sub_co...

www.youtube.com

Have you seen a first-hand post-meeting interview?

 

[ClaudeJ]

Link-16 protocol has been upgraded multiple times over its lifetime, with the latest upgrade bringing encryption coding/decoding capabilities. This must be about hardware relevant to that.

Has the Link 16 been fitted to any other Türkçe platform than the F-16?

 

[Bürküt]

As an outsider uninformed about the political machinations in the region, that sounds like an appealing course of inaction should F-16 be blocked. Especially if the F-4's have a few years' life left in them and are not extremely expensive to maintain.

This is the tremendous nightmare.The air force of the Mighty Turkish army consists of relatively non-modern F-16s from the 1970s.(I'm ashamed to say this, but when I see the disproportionate strength of our Air Force compared to the capabilities of our other forces, I start to think that we resemble Iran a bit).


Not to mention how our Greek neighbor, with an economy one-fourth the size of ours, has managed to build an Air Force with the money of German taxpayers or how willing our French friends are to assist them.They aren't afraid that the support they receive might be cut off because they evaluate the loss of qualified human resources as diaspora.


Maybe Israel's worst F-16 is equivalent to our most modern F-16 IDK.I don't even want to compare the two airforces.


I would like to live in a world where we have purchased 40 F 35s and own around 80-120 Block 70 Vipers.If we had continued to participate in the F35 project, our defense industry companies would have had a very good cash flow by now.Having and using a fifth-generation fighter jet would have helped us understand what it means.Thus, we could have had a more advanced vision for the Air Force in the future. We wouldn't have to worry about a modern Air Force like we do today.We could easily balance the power difference between us and our enemies/rivals with different platforms.


Of course, we left all of these behind for single S400 battery.We demonstrated to the entire world in every conflict how outdated and behind the times Russian air defense systems are, and how easily they can be destroyed.We shattered them everywhere we saw ; with small, non-complex munitions, possibly valued at 50 thousand dollars at most .Then we tried to convince everyone that Türkiye's national security is depend on one single Russian Junk.

 

[YeşilVatan]

I'm extremely disappointed when I see comments about how we missed the opportunity for F-35's for S400s. What makes you think that they would not find another reason to kick us out of the program? Are you really that naïve?

US itself, which is a monster when it comes to aviation, defence industry and logistics, can hardly keep up with F-35's maintainance. Close to half of the jets are grounded AFAIK (something came out in senate hearings about the subject). I'm not poo pooing the F-35. It's a marvel of engineering, and a game changer. It just seems like it hasn't matured enough maintainance wise. It's like early muskets, it's a bitch to maintain and expensive to make but it penetrates armor. US is a behemoth so they can just eat the costs and keep the advantage.

Which brings me to my point. We would have trouble keeping the planes operational, and US would employ its usual underhanded tactics to keep F-35s from being used in service of Turkish foreign policy. They would deny spare parts, delay maintainance & repair, not to mention how they would stop selling ammunition. And this is considering they wouldn't find any other BS excuse to deny the sale in the firstplace.

*And all of this would happen regardless of how S400 situation developed.*

Is the S400's useful? Yes, against eastern bloc jets they are. We know because Russians down their own jets with it. Is the cost worth it? I don't know.

But please stop using "we lost F-35s because of S400s" line. Fate of the Turkish F-35s was sealed on the night of 15th of July 2016.

 

[Sanchez]

But please stop using "we lost F-35s because of S400s" line. Fate of the Turkish F-35s was sealed on the night of 15th of July 2016.

This is historical revisionism, nothing more. Turkish pilots were literally training on F-35s built for turkey in 2019.

First two F-35s were officially handed to Turkish use in 2018.

The TurAF’s First Two F-35s Delivered to Turkey

www.defenceturkey.com

Had Turkey actually finished the tasks in US and brought the aircraft here, everyone would be singing a different tune. Saying US would find another way to cut Turkey off is disingenious at best. No one could cut Turkey off if the aircraft was already here. They just had to wait 1 more year to make the dumbest decision of their lives.

 

[YeşilVatan]

This is historical revisionism, nothing more. Turkish pilots were literally training on F-35s built for turkey in 2019.

Don't tell me you believe US wouldn't find another reason to kick Turkey out of F-35 program.

 

[Sanchez]

Don't tell me you believe US wouldn't find another reason to kick Turkey out of F-35 program.

I'm not required to. We gave all the reason in the world directly on a silver platter already.

Someone teach me the mental gymnastics of this. US booted us from F-35 because they don't like us and removed an absolute leverage they would have over us over the next 40 years. But we are pretty hopeful they will give us the one thing we absolutely cannot acquire from anyone else in the world to develop Kaan? Does this make sense? It doesn't.

 

[DBdev]

I'm not required to. We gave all the reason in the world directly on a silver platter already.

Someone teach me the mental gymnastics of this. US booted us from F-35 because they don't like us and removed an absolute leverage they would have over us over the next 40 years. But we are pretty hopeful they will give us the one thing we absolutely cannot acquire from anyone else in the world to develop Kaan? Does this make sense? It doesn't.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/legal-requirement-to-maintain-israel-s-qualitative-edge

In short, when Israel says
-Jump!
America always has to reply,
-How high my master?

Israel did not want Türkiye to have F-35 or Patriots so America gave us the run around for 3 decades. Even tried to destroy s400s we bought from elsewhere by embargos and threats. America was confident about their embedded trojan horses but Israelis were not comfortable us having even a compromised, backdoored F-35 & Patriot considering our unexpected reverse engineering abilities since 2000s. They were regretting selling us Herons even with all the backdoors and code traps..

 

[Quasar]

Is an electronic Attack Variant derived from Hürjet possible, which offers similar Capabillities like an EA-18 Growler ?

We should consider the fact that EA-18 Growler is for the Navy i.e carrier based


we have ASELSAN EW POD, HAVASOJ, C 160 ( dont know their current statues) and Land based KORAL I & II...

 

[Ryder]

40 Eurofighter Trench 4 are gonna cost around $8 billions in full package. (Including ammunition, logistics, spare parts and training)

I guess, money isn't the problem for Türkiye right now.

Ottoman Empire once cut defence spending guess what see seen how that turned when come soldiers even had to resort to using muskets.

Defence cuts only costed the nation. Turkish soldiers even fought against Pkk without even having proper equipment during the 80s thanks to budget cuts.

 

[Zafer]

Ottoman Empire once cut defence spending guess what see seen how that turned when come soldiers even had to resort to using muskets.

Defence cuts only costed the nation. Turkish soldiers even fought against Pkk without even having proper equipment during the 80s thanks to budget cuts.

If defence development projects could greately benefit from budget re-allocations it could be better to spend the money elsewhere. If the engine development projects could be helped by spending more money then the returns could be wastly more attractive. I think there is a pace of development where it is more profitable to stick to a certain speed of work where additional efforts bring diminishing returns, unless it is wartime of course.