TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Afif]

According to latest Tamil kotil statement, KAAN's unit cost will be higher than initially projected $ 100 millions.

*With total package, even for Turkish domestic purchase KAAN will cost at least $160 millions each. That is around 3.8 billions for the procurement of KAAN and accociated systems each year.

*F-22 flight per hour cost is believed to aroumd $70000 USD. If it is around $ 50000 for KAAN, then Sustainment cost for 250 KAAN fleet will be $ 2.5 billions per year (assuming 200 flight hours per unit each year.)

*Also, we have to keep in mind Turkish Air force has other procurement list, including various types of UAV/UCAV, trainers, helicopters, air lifters, strategic Air defence system, future space technologies and other systems.


Then of course, TurAF is only one service of TAF. Other sister services (Army and Navy) has their own long and extensive procurement list. So, it is not like a walk in the park.

It will certainly require very efficient distribution of resources amd priority management to successfully complete multiple decades long simultaneously ongoing strategic programs along with many other programs with various levels of importance.

 

[Spitfire9]

Total ownership might be 1.5 times more but lets say fly away price is 100 million for each KAAN like CEO Kotil says. That is half price of course since it is for us. 24 billion USD in 20 years is nothing for a country with 1 trillion dollar GDP.

Besides unlike before money is not going away. We are not getting poorer because of defense spending like Greece and many others. Quite the opposite it is just returning to our other pocket as employment, more economic growth. And by strengthening our defense sector we will eventually earn 10 times more than that by exporting it to countless rich nations that are being embargoed by west. Even Korean fighter is not 5th gen. Russia, China are not selling 5th gens. That just leaves entire planet to Türkiye. Hardly can wait...

Yes, Turkiye looks to be very well placed. I'm not sure how long it will have a virtual monopoly because South Korea may redesign the KF-21 to incorporate an IWB in phase 3 of its programme. Theoretically India's AMCA could also be available but nearer 2040, I think.

As you say, the entire planet will be open to TAI KAAN (subject to US approval until TAI can offer KAAN with a Turkish engine).

 

[Rodeo]

As you say, the entire planet will be open to TAI KAAN (subject to US approval until TAI can offer KAAN with a Turkish engine).

KAAN is not fifth gen unless it's offered with national engines. And you can be sure that there won't be any export possibilities with the American engines. We'd be lucky even if we could acquire them for our own air force.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Anything over 200 KAAN is simply overkill, even the USA only has just under 200 F-22 Raptors as air superiority fighters.
Turkey urgently needs a single jet variant of the KAAN and preferably as a Delta Canard configuration.
150 - 200 KAAN (Twin Turbojet) & 300 KAAN S (Delta Carand Single Turbojet) with the option of a further 100 units, for less than 80-90 million US dollars a unit. plus 100 F-16s from its own inventory (the remaining F-16 spare parts stocks)
In addition, there are easily 500-600 drones of various types. That's quite enough for Turkey as a deterrent. We are not the USA, China or Russia that we need over 1000 fighter planes, we neither have the money nor is our economy stable enough to maintain something like that.
The Russians, for example, also have over 1000 fighter planes, but more than half of them are no good, as the war in Ukraine has more or less proven, they are just garbage, the only ones that are really any good are probably the newer SU 35S & SU 57.

 

[Spitfire9]

Turkey urgently needs a single jet variant of the KAAN and preferably as a Delta Canard configuration.
150 - 200 KAAN (Twin Turbojet) & 300 KAAN S (Delta Carand Single Turbojet) with the option of a further 100 units

I suppose that working off Su-75 - populating it with Turkish avionics, integrating Turkish weapons and later installing a Turkish engine is out of the question? Sukhoi appears not to be able to generate interest in this low cost (less than $50 million) aircraft, so could be open to an offer.

 

[DBdev]

Guys do not compare costs of mr. "I must display my might all over the world" America with us.
They are flying F-22s even over the Syria for f. sake. You won't burn jet fuel or need engine other repairs if you keep them in the secure hangars for a "rainy day" while Akinci, Kizilelma, Anka 3 etc with Murad AESA radar and 200km BVR missiles patrol the skies for price of peanuts.

I bet when we get hydrogen bombs there will be bunch of people crying about costs of those too. Sheesh, learn to accept success and happiness. Even sky will not be the limit for us soon.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Let us get one thing straight!
No military equipment has any commercial value. It is a non productive investment.

A. If you buy the military equipment from abroad, you are spending your foreign reserves and buying something that is going to sit idle and be a burden on your economy.
If you buy a commercial truck from abroad, at least you will use it to carry stuff to help the economy. You will employ people to operate it.

B. If you manufacture the military equipment, you are saving your foreign reserves. However you are spending your tax income to manufacture a piece of equipment that will not contribute to your economy. You are employing a workforce and creating an ecosystem with your tax payers’ money. It is definitely better than point A though.

C. If you sell your military equipment to an export customer, then you have maximum input. You have actually added to your foreign currency reserves. You have created work for your workforce with somebody else’s money. You have made that buyer dependent on you. If we can sell half of what we spend on our military equipment than we are doing more than OK.

Having clarified that ; The KAAN fighter is cheap at a unit price of 100 million dollars, for the quantity we will be building and the technological level of excellence we are expecting from it. As a comparison, the Typhoon fighter jet is at least 50% more expensive to buy.
Having said that, I doubt we will ever really know how much TuAF will pay for them. That is the case with Typhoon too. Qatar paid best part of 8 billion dollars with today’s money for 24 Typhoons (5 billion Pounds in 2018) including training, parts and ammo. (Spain bought last year, 20 Typhoons for 2.1 billion dollars)

TuAF won’t be buying these planes all in one go. After 2028 they will start adding them to our inventory at a financially manageable gradual rate. Hopefully our GDP and economy in the early 30’s will be a great deal better and bigger than today’s.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I suppose that working off Su-75 - populating it with Turkish avionics, integrating Turkish weapons and later installing a Turkish engine is out of the question? Sukhoi appears not to be able to generate interest in this low cost (less than $50 million) aircraft, so could be open to an offer.

It is unlikely that the USA would ever allow this, one must not forget that the TAI KAAN is a distant twin of the F-35, with the difference that it will still be slightly inferior in terms of level.
Only with block 20 or 30 will it possibly equal or slightly surpass the F-35.
The F-22 Raptor is uncatchable in terms of performance and technology it is very unlikely that KAAN as GEN 5 will ever overtake it in later blocks.
The F-22 is absolute top secret and is secretly upgraded in regular cycles.
I would not be surprised if it is already scratching the threshold of GEN 6 as GEN 5.5+ fighter aircraft.
Not even the closest allies like Great Britain & Israel get the jet let alone insight into the technology.

Turkey has gained deep knowledge about the F-35 as a co-developer of the F-35 and through the knowledge of the F16 under license and F-35 from the beginning to the end of the development they have gained a lot of technological knowledge.
The US will stop this, as you can see by indirectly supporting Project KAAN by providing GE F110 129 Engines even if they are produced under license.
I think it makes no sense to sanction everything, but strangely enough not the Engines.

Because the Russians had already agreed to provide Turkey with an engine with 3D vector thrust, including technology transfer, in return for which the Russians would receive in-depth knowledge of the aircraft, which is very similar to the F-35. This is of course total speculation on my part, but if you understand the context then you can understand a lot.
Why the USA wants the Russians out of it.

 

[Nutuk]

Kaan will be levels over F22, yes F22 was top notch but do not forget it is 30 year old tech. Even the best of the best is losing value and technological advantage over time. Even me I am not in my prime years anymore!!!

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Kaan will be levels over F22, yes F22 was top notch but do not forget it is 30 year old tech. Even the best of the best is losing value and technological advantage over time. Even me I am not in my prime years anymore!!!

I don't want to argue and insult you, but in this case you write nonsense.
The F-22 has been upgraded countless times, secretly and without informing the public.
Its radar is top secret, its avionics are top secret, even the material, the engine and the radar absorbing material are top secret.
That's the whole point of secrecy, the F-22 Raptor is more advanced in all respects.
If anything, you've gotten minor messages and read between the lines that it's getting even newer Hardware, Software, AVIONIK, etc.

USAF, Lockheed Plan F-22 Updates To Feed Next-Gen Fighter Tech | Aviation Week

The U.S. Air Force and Lockheed Martin are beginning the second phase of yearly iterative updates to the F-22 fleet.

aviationweek.com

Even the TAI KAAN is based on F-22 Raptor a 30 year old fighter jet design, you can't miss that.

So you should be slow with your assertion. This is the first stealth fighter jet that Turkey has produced,
So while the USA has produced countless airplanes before that, including stealth bombers and fighters, and has been doing so for 90 years, we are still in our infancy.
Also in the area of space research and materials & alloys we are still at the beginning where the US is researching with supercomputers & quantum computers for even newer materials & alloys, we have just started researching radar absorbing material and are in the prototype phase for testing.
All in all, the USA is at least 20 years ahead of us, we are not even in a position to produce modern computer chips, let alone in a modern production facility, which is the Achilles heel of any high technology, even in military technology.
You talk about the TAI KAAN outperforming the F-22 Raptor.

If you mean the Raptor Block 0 for 30 years ago, I agree with you, but today's F-22 Raptor has very little in common with the old Raptor.
After all, you can't compare an F-16 Block 0 from the early 80s with the F-16 Block 70 of today, which is a completely new aircraft except for the basic design.

 

[Merzifonlu]

The chief engineer of the Hürjet project said that in the Armed Hürjet version, the drone officer who will sit behind the pilot will manage the KE and Anka-3 drones. If this happens, I think the Armed Hürjet can no longer be considered a LIFT aircraft. Transforms into a heavyweight fighter plane.

If EF and/or F-16 Block 70 cannot be purchased or the parts to modernize the F16s do not come from the USA, then I think we should make our Ozgur Modernized F-16Ds capable of menaging drones. There is no need to wait for the Armed Hürjet for this purpose. We must now train our core staff who will implement this concept.

In all of my thoughts on our next generation air fleet, Murad AESA radar and TF-6k/10k engine (KE+Anka-3) drones are the focus. (Kaan+TF-35k+Bürfis) projects are not the focus. If Murad AESA radar and TF-6k/10k engine drones and the Armed Hürjet that can manage them enter mass production around 2028, we will tear the shroud. Because, i) either with the Peace Eagle, ii) with the Ozgur Modernized F-16Ds, iii) or with the Armed Hürjet, we will be managing them from the air with artificial intelligence support.

In this way, IMO we have an air fleet that is extremely effective and cheap. Otherwise, we are in very, very serious trouble, just so you know. The question that needs to be asked now is this: If we are going to put the Armed Hürjet into mass production, where will we find its engine?

 

[DBdev]

The chief engineer of the Hürjet project said that in the Armed Hürjet version, the drone officer who will sit behind the pilot will manage the KE and Anka-3 drones. If this happens, I think the Armed Hürjet can no longer be considered a LIFT aircraft. Transforms into a heavyweight fighter plane.

If EF and/or F-16 Block 70 cannot be purchased or the parts to modernize the F16s do not come from the USA, then I think we should make our Ozgur Modernized F-16Ds capable of menaging drones. There is no need to wait for the Armed Hürjet for this purpose. We must now train our core staff who will implement this concept.

In all of my thoughts on our next generation air fleet, Murad AESA radar and TF-6k/10k engine (KE+Anka-3) drones are the focus. (Kaan+TF-35k+Bürfis) projects are not the focus. If Murad AESA radar and TF-6k/10k engine drones and the Armed Hürjet that can manage them enter mass production around 2028, we will tear the shroud. Because, i) either with the Peace Eagle, ii) with the Ozgur Modernized F-16Ds, iii) or with the Armed Hürjet, we will be managing them from the air with artificial intelligence support.

In this way, IMO we have an air fleet that is extremely effective and cheap. Otherwise, we are in very, very serious trouble, just so you know. The question that needs to be asked now is this: If we are going to put the Armed Hürjet into mass production, where will we find its engine?

If we have problems with Americans about engines of Hürjet and can't get replacements from any other place for some silly reason, we will still have Akinci with commercial, easily available heavy duty engines, unlimited BVR missiles, cruise missiles and AESA. So no worries our future is looking very bright.

Satellite communication is at the speed of light. There is less than 1 second delay. Therefore whatever sensor, radar information etc. you were going to feed to the cockpit screen of Hürjet and Kaan can also be instantly beamed up to the satellite, then down to our remote pilots and vice versa. Let our fighter pilots experience VR cockpit of KAAN from their vacation spots on Maldives.

When Kizilelma matures, we wouldn't need manned fighters, remote pilots even for dogfights . That means taking more risks as well as being more aggressive while defending our national interests without any compromise. All over the globe.

This is our new reality not fantasy.

 

[TheInsider]

According to latest Tamil kotil statement, KAAN's unit cost will be higher than initially projected $ 100 millions.

*With total package, even for Turkish domestic purchase KAAN will cost at least $160 millions each. That is around 3.8 billions for the procurement of KAAN and accociated systems each year.

*F-22 flight per hour cost is believed to aroumd $70000 USD. If it is around $ 50000 for KAAN, then Sustainment cost for 250 KAAN fleet will be $ 2.5 billions per year (assuming 200 flight hours per unit each year.)

*Also, we have to keep in mind Turkish Air force has other procurement list, including various types of UAV/UCAV, trainers, helicopters, air lifters, strategic Air defence system, future space technologies and other systems.


Then of course, TurAF is only one service of TAF. Other sister services (Army and Navy) has their own long and extensive procurement list. So, it is not like a walk in the park.

It will certainly require very efficient distribution of resources amd priority management to successfully complete multiple decades long simultaneously ongoing strategic programs along with many other programs with various levels of importance.

That is the initial cost of the prototypes. 20 Kaans which will be delivered in 2028. Similar to other fighter projects, costs will go well under 100 million per fighter as the production ramps up for the Turkish needs and exports. Turkiye won't sell those fighters cheap for international customers though.

Lifecycle costs associated with the Kaan are a lot cheaper than the F-35.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Without a functioning semiconductor industry, Turkey can be cut off very quickly.
Turkey has no chips apart from an open source chip called Cakil in 45nm, otherwise there is nothing.
So if tomorrow the USA & Co decide to impose a full embargo, for whatever reason, then without computer chips and circuits the Turkish industry is nothing and will turn into Iran 2.0

 

[Aqerdf]

This was argued many times by our defence enthusiast circles.

General consensus was finding chips will not be a much problem, needed sizes are not that small, there are multiple producers in Americas, Asia and Europe. So multiple sources are there.

I think main problem is espionage and sabotage. Not finding chips for defence industry.

For that we need to produce by ourself imo, yes.

 

[Aqerdf]

That is the initial cost of the prototypes. 20 Kaans which will be delivered in 2028. Similar to other fighter projects, costs will go well under 100 million per fighter as the production ramps up for the Turkish needs and exports. Turkiye won't sell those fighters cheap for international customers though.

Lifecycle costs associated with the Kaan are a lot cheaper than the F-35.

Too early to talk and it will be an amateur speculation from my side but in a world where Typhoon, Rafale and even Gripen having same (-or little bit less with hair size ) price with F-35, there is no chance that Kaan will have less purchase price, at least for export.

It will have more high-tech composite usage per kg, more titanium usage per kg, more t/r module per count, more e/o sensor per count and two high power modern engine instead of one. It's designed as 21-meter 5th gen monster, i like to remember this myself from time to time.

Plus more altitude, supercruise capability, etc.

And it would still be a bargain, if you couldn't/won't buy F-35 or want to supplement it.

(If mentioned specs are became reality, hopefully).

 

[Fatman17]

Final countdown: Türkiye's 5th-gen fighter set to make maiden flight

Türkiye's defense and aviation sector is expected to experience a historic moment in the upcoming week as the first flight of the domestically...

www.dailysabah.com

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Eurofighter: A Strategic Shift in Turkiye's Defence Plans | TURDEF

This article discusses the road to Eurofighter acquisition and its consequences for Turkiye, Greece, Israel, Russia and NATO.

www.turdef.com

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Eurofighter: A Strategic Shift in Turkiye's Defence Plans | TURDEF

This article discusses the road to Eurofighter acquisition and its consequences for Turkiye, Greece, Israel, Russia and NATO.

www.turdef.com

This Article underline the importance of Rafale Long Range Meteor BVR Missile as well the Advantage in EW. Also TurAF need in the first stages of War to avoid losses until Rafale need maintenance.

It looks not that the West will deliver a modern State 4 or 4.5 Generation Fighter Aircraft until Kaan is ready for serial Production.

I also expect Hürjet will be produced first as lead - in Trainer, that mean no light Attack Variant in the beginning.

Also KE and Anka 3 need the completion of TF-6000 and TF-10000, this will also take some Years.

Russian Aircraft like SU-35 and SU-57 are for some Reason no Option. Could be an Advanced JF-17 Variant with Murad AESA ,Özgür, GÖKDOĞAN, BOZDOĞAN Missiles and other indigenous Weapon Systems an alternative?

Turkey Contemplates China-Pakistan JF-17 "Thunder"? - Defence Security Asia

Turkish exclusion from the F-35 development program and the impediment from acquiring the Eurofighter Typhoon as well as F-16 Block 70 have prompted Turkey to explore the JF-17 "Thunder”, a fighter aircraft jointly-developed by Pakistan and China, as alleged by the local media.

defencesecurityasia.com

 

[Fatman17]

JF17 is just mig 21 We don't need soviet or chinese tech

JF-17C is far more capable than a MiG-21

A PAF JF-17C Block III was landing at the CAC airfield, carrying two PL-10E IIR guided AAMs at the wingtips. As the latest variant of JF-17, Block III represents PAF's ambition to counter the threat from IAF's Su-30MKI. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine, a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-5E IR guided or PL-10E IIR guided AAM, SD-10A or PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails), 500/1000lb REK GPS/INS glide bombs, CM-400AKG ASM. An additional hard point is installed underneath the right engine air intake for KG600 ECM or ASELPOD targeting pod. The maiden flight of the #3000 prototype took place on December 15, 2019. Images of the flight indicated the JF-17C prototype features a J-20 style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward IIR MAWS sensors (RKW2200E?) behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF. It has been rumored that Iraqi AF and Azerbaijani AF have showed some interest. PAC formally launched the production work of JF-17C on December 30, 2020. At least 8 (3Pxx) were on the assembly line, which are powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (August 2021) suggested that an indigenous WS-13X engine has been tested successfully onboard a JF-17C prototype, making it more competitive on the international market. Recent images (January 2022) indicated that the first 8 assembled JF-17Cs (S/N 22-30x) rolled out at PAC. A total of 50 JF-17Cs were reportedly ordered by PAF to replace the remaining F-7PGs.
- Last Updated 8/13/23