TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Merzifonlu]

Perhaps this 2028 'fly on Kaan' date means using a Kaan as a flying testbed (1 x F110 + 1 x T35kN)?

If the domestic engine is produced by that date and operates with sufficient reliability, yes, it will be tested by installing it on the one of prototype KAAN together with the F110.

 

[Zafer]

Perhaps this 2028 'fly on Kaan' date means using a Kaan as a flying testbed (1 x F110 + 1 x T35kN)?

The latest statement is that they are trying to make the engine ready for when Kaan is ready for serial production. If you draw a timeline back towards today you can workout an engine roadmap leading to that time-frame.

 

[DBdev]

Perhaps this 2028 'fly on Kaan' date means using a Kaan as a flying testbed (1 x F110 + 1 x T35kN)?

That's not how engines work. You can't synchronize or control 2 different engines without destroying the plane. It is tricky as it gets when its the same make and model.

 

[Heartbang]

The maiden flight schedules of the Hürjet and Anka-3 were also slightly delayed.

Hürjet was supposed to fly in 18th of March, 2023. It flew almost six weeks later. (on the 25th of April)
We memory-holed that fact because of the KAAN's taxi footage and of course, the earthquakes.

By now, 2nd prototype should be done and geared up for taxi tests and 1st flight. I am convinced that the 2nd prototype is the one which will fly.

Only a week or two to go...

If the domestic engine is produced by that date and operates with sufficient reliability, yes, it will be tested by installing it on the one of prototype KAAN together with the F110.

They should mount the prototype engine to the starboard (right) side.

Why, you might ask..

Spoiler: This is why:

 

[Zafer]

That's not how engines work. You can't synchronize or control 2 different engines without destroying the plane. It is tricky as it gets when its the same make and model.

Everyone tries to bring some innovation to engineering, flying a plane unmanned is one of them and perhaps running two different engines together is another. Just speculating.

 

[Spitfire9]

That's not how engines work. You can't synchronize or control 2 different engines without destroying the plane. It is tricky as it gets when its the same make and model.

In that case it sounds like the company developing the engine will need to buy in flying testbed testing on a foreign OEM's testbed aircraft unless Turkiye wants to develop and build one itself.

 

[Iskander]

This is my problem with the way they handled Kaan's first flight, on top of other big and unnecessary statements. We need to plant our feet firmly on the ground and be realistic on our timelines and goals. If we surpass them, more power to us, but daydreaming about things that are borderline impossible gets us nothing, only wastes our limited resources. I don't want empty promises and false dreams, nor do we really need them, what we need is proper planning and clever use of our resources.

I remember that TAI planned the first flight in 2025. Then the date was moved forward 2 years - to 2023. But I don’t remember the indignation of respected users about this

 

[Rooxbar]

That's not how engines work. You can't synchronize or control 2 different engines without destroying the plane. It is tricky as it gets when its the same make and model.

That's actually how most testbeds are. They use safe tried and true engines of the testbed itself in one position and mount the other with the test engine.

 

[Chocopie]

That's not how engines work. You can't synchronize or control 2 different engines without destroying the plane. It is tricky as it gets when its the same make and model.

In early 1990 technology demonstrator "Rafale A" aka ACX exactly did that: engine test flight of SNECMA M88 (on the left) + GE F404 (on the right).

One of many sources:

Dassault Rafale

 

[Spitfire9]

That's actually how most testbeds are. They use safe tried and true engines of the testbed itself in one position and mount the other with the test engine.

I would have thought that Turkiye, with a number of engines planned for the future, might have started a project to build a flying engine testbed. Going back a few years A340's could be bought for next to nothing.

PS I believe that an airworthy A340 retired in favour of the much more efficient B777 could be bought for $20 million or even less. I think that Turkiye could have bought two (one for spares) for $20-$40 million.

 

[Rooxbar]

I would have thought that Turkiye, with a number of engines planned for the future, might have started a project to build a flying engine testbed. Going back a few years A340's could be bought for next to nothing.

Yeah, it should have been acquired by now; A prototype Kaan as testbed is completely out of the question, as you need a very safe platform to test, with reinforced airframe and such and you need also a testbed that you can push to its limits with very experienced pilots. None of these factors would be possible on a prototype Kaan.

 

[Radonsider]

Perhaps this 2028 'fly on Kaan' date means using a Kaan as a flying testbed (1 x F110 + 1 x T35kN)?

Yes

 

[Radonsider]

Yeah, it should have been acquired by now; A prototype Kaan as testbed is completely out of the question, as you need a very safe platform to test, with reinforced airframe and such and you need also a testbed that you can push to its limits with very experienced pilots. None of these factors would be possible on a prototype Kaan.

You are not going to do it with a prototype that has never flown before.

An "alien" testbed poses the same risk as a special development prototype and offers much less envelope.

That's why it is going to be a 1x F-110 1x TF-35k. Not 2x

 

[boredaf]

Can a few months or a calendar year be considered a serious delay in these mega-scale multidisciplinary engineering programs, or is it within acceptable margins?

The problem isn't, or rather wouldn't be, that there are or will be delays. Delays are expected in projects like TF35000, no part of engineering a jet engine is simple or easy. You can pick any engine you want, take a look at its development from start to finish and you're more likely than not to see problems or delays at one point or another.

And this isn't limited to just countries starting from scratch. Chinese with all the tech they "borrowed" from US (without their approval) and all the "inspiration" they got from Russia still needed about 20 years to make WS-15 work. But they did it, they flew their 5th gen plane on it and it is in serial production.

The problem, at least for me, is statements coming from both government officials and people from companies that might end up working on an engine for Kaan, making it sound like it is a trivial matter than we can overcome in 5 years and change. It isn't, no matter what new technology we use or how experienced we are at other engines, it simply isn't. Pentagon and Pratty & Whitney pulled the plug on making a new engine for F-35s because it was going to be too expensive and would take a long time, instead they are going to upgrade F135s, which in itself was an upgrade on F119s in a sense, or at least built upon it. When it comes to engines, it isn't easy for anyone.

And that is what grinds my gears, I want people in charge to stop making statements that put expectations sky high and start being realistic about the challenges ahead and timelines to overcome them. It is essential to be realistic about these things so that we can find ways to solve any possible problem that might, and most likely will, arise sooner or later.

 

[Zafer]

By the time the domestic engine flies Kaan will be around 3 years old. 3 long years to make a plane reliable.

 

[Rooxbar]

By the time the domestic engine flies Kaan will be around 3 years old. 3 long years to make a plane reliable.

3 years is a very short amount of time for trying to make a new plane reliable.

 

[Zafer]

3 years is a very short amount of time for trying to make a new plane reliable.

Koreans have already started the serial production work in less then 3 years after first flight.

 

[Sai]

This issue of delays is also, in my opinion, a very relative area of discussion. Depending on how we look at it, it can be defined as a major failure or within acceptable limits. Judging by the current procurement plans of the Air Force, we are preparing for many possibilities. Can a few months or a calendar year be considered a serious delay in these mega-scale multidisciplinary engineering programs, or is it within acceptable margins? To use a cliché, the difficulties faced by India, which started much earlier than us, are an obvious example. In general, I believe that TAI has succeeded in achieving a performance that has surprised most of the authorities in the world. And sooner or later they will reach the mass production target in this program. Because this program is no longer a technological demonstration or an experiment, it has become a necessity directly related to the survival of the country. The air force can create time with stop-gap solutions, but for the next big step, the Turkish air force now has no alternative.

India waited for the engine deal. She didn't want to rely on American Engines; they can cut off supply at any time. Recently, France and India agreed on joint collaboration to make a 110KN engine. So now, funds will be released. CCS approval was stalled in April 2023. But I am guessing KAAN will be out before AMCA anyway.

 

[YeşilVatan]

Koreans have already started the serial production work in less then 3 years after first flight.

They can use parts and even subsystems off the shelf. They are not under embargo.

 

[Zafer]

They can use parts and even subsystems off the shelf. They are not under embargo.

We are talking about making the plane reliable enough to go to production which makes it reliable enough to test prototype engines with and not about actually going into production.