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TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

dBSPL

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So, when are our F-35s coming? I am talking about aircrafts that were paid for years ago, ownership was transferred and then the transfer was blocked and usurped as a result US political will. If there are legitimate reasons for a 180-degree turn on Sweden issue, also this should be a legitimate question!
 

Barry

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Look lads if it's not the s400, these modern imperialists will find one of a myriad excuses not to give you the jets you paid for. It'll be your position on the East Med. Your position on the Aegean. Your position on Syria, Iraq, Libya, Azerbaycan. Erdogan. Whoever comes next in political leadership. Being Turkish. Claiming Yoghurt is Turkish. Loving cats.
 

Bozan

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What if Türkiye places the S-400 to the north coast, so it can only be used against russian attacks? Because never trust anyone.
Would this be enough to let them lift CAATSA?

No, the condition is that they are removed completely
 

Bogeyman 

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Upgraded F-35 deliveries slipping to fall 2024, Lockheed says​



Lockheed Martin’s production of the latest upgraded F-35 Joint Strike Fighters is slipping further behind schedule, and deliveries likely will not resume until the third quarter of 2024, the company said Tuesday.

Lockheed CEO Jim Taiclet told investors in an earnings call that the business now expects to deliver between 75 and 110 F-35s this year — fewer than the roughly 150 annually the company typically aims to deliver.

The delivery disruption of the newest F-35s, intended to features upgrades known as Technology Refresh 3, means Lockheed’s sales of the jet took a $400 million hit last year.

Taiclet said the company is making progress on the jets enabled with the TR-3 upgrades, which would come with software and hardware improvements including better displays, computer memory and processing power. But the system maturation process “is taking somewhat more time than we originally anticipated,” he added.

“The second quarter customer acceptance of delivery software remains our target,” he said. “However, we now believe that the third quarter may be a more likely scenario for a TR-3 software acceptance.”

The TR-3 upgrades are needed to prepare the F-35 for a further wave of upgrades known as Block 4, which would allow the jet to carry more precision weapons, advanced sensing, jamming and cybersecurity capabilities, and more accurate target recognition. Rep. Rob Wittman, R-Va., worries TR-3 delays could in turn delay the rollout of Block 4 upgrades.

“We are taking the time and attention to get this [TR-3] technology insertion right the first time because it will be absolutely worth it,” Taiclet said. TR-3′s features “will provide our customers with the onboard digital infrastructure of data storage, data processing, and pilot-user interface to provide unmatched capabilities for many years to come.”

But TR-3, which was originally due in April 2023, has repeatedly slipped behind schedule due to software problems and challenges integrating it with the jet’s new hardware. In July 2023, Lockheed Martin began rolling the first jets intended for the TR-3 configuration off its production line in Fort Worth, Texas.

Because those jets could not undergo test flights the Defense Department requires before delivery, the military refused to accept them. New aircraft awaiting TR-3 are now stored at Fort Worth, and Lockheed said between 100 and 120 jets could remain there later this year.

The F-35 Joint Program Office said in a statement to Defense News that it and industry partners are focused on delivering capable fighters, but that delays in software maturity are still putting those deliveries at risk.

The JPO said it and Lockheed are working on a plan to allow the government to accept undelivered jets before the full TR-3 capabilities are validated.

“Any aircraft involved and delivered as part of the truncation plan will provide valuable capabilities to the warfighters while TR-3 completes final verification and validation,” the office said.

In November, the office confirmed a production F-35 had flown with an interim version of the TR-3 software installed. Flying jets with such early release versions of the software is “potentially” one way for deliveries to resume before TR-3 is done, the JPO said that month.

Lt. Gen. Michael Schmidt, who leads the F-35 program, told lawmakers in December that production of a few key components needed for TR-3 hardware also ramped up slower than expected, which is contributing to the delay.

When the Pentagon halted deliveries, it and Lockheed Martin still expected TR-3 to be ready between December and April 2024. But in September 2023, Lockheed and the JPO said TR-3 could take even longer. That revised schedule placed delivery at sometime between April 2024 — which would already be a full year late — and June 2024.

That schedule is now sliding further, it appears.

Taiclet said more than 90% of the TR-3 capabilities are now in flight test, and Lockheed is moving the software integration process forward to include more aircraft and mission subsystems.

Lockheed’s chief financial officer, Jay Malave, said the company is confident it can meet the new third quarter goal to begin delivering TR-3 jets. But if the schedule slips further, he explained, Lockheed would have to reconsider its production pace of F-35s and possibly slow it down.

The company is bleeding cash due to the F-35 delivery halt — and the wound does not appear likely to heal soon.

“As we make progress [on the] TR-3 program, as well as getting ourselves into production, it’s difficult to take risk and rely on risk retirements as we’re still facing this program, and the progress we’re making there,” Malave said. “And so we assume that profit adjustments slow down in 2024 on the F-35 program.”

Lockheed Martin delivered 98 F-35s in the previous TR-2 configuration in 2023, including 18 in the fourth quarter, Taiclet said. The company originally planned to deliver between 147 and 153 fighters last year.

The delivery halt meant Lockheed’s net F-35 sales for the year dropped $400 million, partially offsetting the growth in other areas. Lockheed’s classified Skunk Works unit saw its sales grow by $540 million in 2023, and rising production of F-16s meant its sales grew $230 million for the year, the company said.

Despite the F-35′s troubles, Lockheed’s aeronautics sector saw its sales grow 2% in 2023 to nearly $27.5 billion. The aeronautics sector’s 2023 profit ticked down about 1% to $2.8 billion.

 

Windchime

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And the context for us is this. Our Air Force is aging, it is capability wise behind some of its neighbors. And this is the consequence of betting all you have on one horse long-term, i.e. the F-35 project. The first mistake here was not to diversify your options by agreeing to the deal offered to you over a decade ago to become a partner in the Eurofighter project.
I think we should consider the rapid economic development of Turkiye during the last couple of years. I've had to point out similar things regarding Korean defense programs. What we currently perceive as Turkish financial capabilities could not have been what Turkiye could've been able to afford more than 10 years ago. Also, Eurofighter program was in its absolute worst place possible during that period. IMO, it's hindsight 20-20 to say that Turkiye should have opted to take part in two programs simultaneously since it would've been hard to justify. If anything, I'd say it should've got onboard the F-16V upgrade program sooner, when Taiwan first opted for its development alongside USAF.

No one would've imagined that A: Russia would invade Crimea, annex it, start a proxy war in Eastern Ukraine and severe its ties with the US, and B: Turkiye would still choose S-400 for T-LORAMIDS despite this situation. It has been a very unfortunate, but in the same time, plain dumb decision, really.

The Hisar/Siper project has been going on for quite a while, surely the defense contractors have informed the government when the individual systems will be ready.
During T-LORAMIDS, it was already touted once that SSB will evaluate to develop and field indigenous long-range SAM instead of procuring foreign option, once the program stalled because Patriot and SAMP/T offers from Raytheon and EUROSAM couldn't satisfy Turkish requirements and the deal with Chinese fell through. Obviously, they soon got back to the foreign option since that wasn't viable in any foreseeable future (at that point, for the time being). Again, hindsight 20-20.

We haven't had a decent air defense system for 20-25 years, what difference would the last 4-5 years have made? Who would we have had to defend against in the short term if we had needed the S-400? The PKK and the YPG have neither ballistic missiles nor cruise missiles, the Greeks don't dare to attack Turkey, they don't have the courage, let alone the number of soldiers.
Neither Iran nor Russia would have dared to attack Turkey because of its NATO membership.
The US would not attack Turkey for some flimsy story either, the cost-benefit factor alone would be zero, especially as it would be uncontrollable as a country, even if our country had been bombed into the stone age.
Choosing to not invade/attack another country is not the matter of "courage" but wisdom, if I should say. That is unless they are directly under serious threat of invasion and needs to consider preemptive strike, though I don't think Turkiye would go as far with Greece in the foreseeable future.
 

Ryder

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I think we should consider the rapid economic development of Turkiye during the last couple of years. I've had to point out similar things regarding Korean defense programs. What we currently perceive as Turkish financial capabilities could not have been what Turkiye could've been able to afford more than 10 years ago. Also, Eurofighter program was in its absolute worst place possible during that period. IMO, it's hindsight 20-20 to say that Turkiye should have opted to take part in two programs simultaneously since it would've been hard to justify. If anything, I'd say it should've got onboard the F-16V upgrade program sooner, when Taiwan first opted for its development alongside USAF.

No one would've imagined that A: Russia would invade Crimea, annex it, start a proxy war in Eastern Ukraine and severe its ties with the US, and B: Turkiye would still choose S-400 for T-LORAMIDS despite this situation. It has been a very unfortunate, but in the same time, plain dumb decision, really.


During T-LORAMIDS, it was already touted once that SSB will evaluate to develop and field indigenous long-range SAM instead of procuring foreign option, once the program stalled because Patriot and SAMP/T offers from Raytheon and EUROSAM couldn't satisfy Turkish requirements and the deal with Chinese fell through. Obviously, they soon got back to the foreign option since that wasn't viable in any foreseeable future (at that point, for the time being). Again, hindsight 20-20.


Choosing to not invade/attack another country is not the matter of "courage" but wisdom, if I should say. That is unless they are directly under serious threat of invasion and needs to consider preemptive strike, though I don't think Turkiye would go as far with Greece in the foreseeable future.

I dont think Greece will attack Turkiye.

Neither wil go to war but still historical grievances wont pass as Greeks constantly cry about Anatolia and Istanbul.

What the Greeks are complaining about how they failed to dislodge the Turks at their worst moment which was after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Ataturk was a smart man he knew the Greeks will constantly try to gobble as much Turkish land as they can as the Ottomans collapsed and instead used against them when the Greeks had no capabilities in ruling such a land.

Now the Greeks wont able to pull off such an invasion in the 1920s or even a attack.

Because 1920s and the 2020s and 2030s are different. Sick man of Europe stereotype has nothing more led to both the Usa, Eu and Russia underestimating the Turks.

They think the Turks will easily be rolled up just like the Ottoman Empire of the 1800s. Ottoman Empire even lost to Muhammed Ali Pasha its own Egypt Eyalet. Times were pretty embarassing and humiliating but now we live different times.
 

RMZN

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I dont think Greece will attack Turkiye.

Neither wil go to war but still historical grievances wont pass as Greeks constantly cry about Anatolia and Istanbul.

What the Greeks are complaining about how they failed to dislodge the Turks at their worst moment which was after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Ataturk was a smart man he knew the Greeks will constantly try to gobble as much Turkish land as they can as the Ottomans collapsed and instead used against them when the Greeks had no capabilities in ruling such a land.

Now the Greeks wont able to pull off such an invasion in the 1920s or even a attack.

Because 1920s and the 2020s and 2030s are different. Sick man of Europe stereotype has nothing more led to both the Usa, Eu and Russia underestimating the Turks.

They think the Turks will easily be rolled up just like the Ottoman Empire of the 1800s. Ottoman Empire even lost to Muhammed Ali Pasha its own Egypt Eyalet. Times were pretty embarassing and humiliating but now we live different times.
Their goal is to unilaterally extend their EEZ to 12nm, whilst trying to guarantee US and EU protection/intervention, once they instigate the conflict.
 

Tornadoss

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Their goal is to unilaterally extend their EEZ to 12nm, whilst trying to guarantee US and EU protection/intervention, once they instigate the conflict.
12 NM is territorial waters, not EEZ. According to UNCLOS the delimitation of the EEZ is must be agreed and can not be extended unilaterally as Turkey is not part of the UNCLOS. However, not sure about the territorial waters. When Greece extending the territorial waters in Adriatic sea they made an agreement with Italy, so I would expect an agreement there as well for extension of the territorial water.
 
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RMZN

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12 NM is territorial waters, not EEZ. According to UNCLOS the delimitation of the EEZ is must be agreed and can not be extended unilaterally as Turkey is not part of the UNCLOS. However, not sure about the territorial waters. When Greece extending the territorial waters in Adriatic sea they make an agreement with Italy, so I would expect an agreement there as well for extension of the territorial water.
Their whole point is that according to them, it is their "right" to extend their EEZ up to 12nm, regardless of what Turkey says.
 

Bogeyman 

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US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland {CNN Turk}

- Frankly, if we can resolve this S-400 issue, which we want to do, the US will be pleased to welcome Turkey back into the F-35 family.

- But first we must solve this other issue, and while solving it we must also ensure that Turkey has a strong air defense
 

Zafer

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US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland {CNN Turk}

- Frankly, if we can resolve this S-400 issue, which we want to do, the US will be pleased to welcome Turkey back into the F-35 family.

- But first we must solve this other issue, and while solving it we must also ensure that Turkey has a strong air defense
That ship has sailed, we won't trust our national security to foreign weapons anymore.

If Americans want Turkish companies to do parts production for F35 we can discuss this at the next SSIK meeting.
 
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RMZN

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That ship has sailed, we won't trust our national security to foreign weapons anymore.

If Americans want Turkish companies to do parts production for F35 we can discuss this at the next SSIK meeting.
We have no use for the S400s either way. Give the S400s to Azerbaijan and get the planes we already paid for and are currently still sitting around.
 

uçuyorum

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I just don't see it happening at this point. I mean it would have benefits, but it is difficult to determine what it would cost us in diplomacy, with money and resources going to it that could danger KAAN too, but then it would have other benefits to KAAN, difficult to gauge the situation. But it may be more likely now that they sold us vipers, the gap between our current capabilities will be somewhat smaller for that step.

I want to say we should just focus on KAAN and hold strong...
 

Angry Turk !!!

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I just don't see it happening at this point. I mean it would have benefits, but it is difficult to determine what it would cost us in diplomacy, with money and resources going to it that could danger KAAN too, but then it would have other benefits to KAAN, difficult to gauge the situation. But it may be more likely now that they sold us vipers, the gap between our current capabilities will be somewhat smaller for that step.

I want to say we should just focus on KAAN and hold strong...
Why not having F16 B70, F35 and KAAN. If possible of course.
 

Zafer

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We have no use for the S400s either way. Give the S400s to Azerbaijan and get the planes we already paid for and are currently still sitting around.
If they want to send those 2 planes to Türkiye, I don't see why they should.
 

Bogeyman 

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Gürcan Okumuş "We would have to work with Lockheed Martin in order to integrate 9 different munitions, which we integrated into our own F-16s, into F-35 warplanes. They would carry out the integration and would not deliver the source code to us."


A tuft of grass made the camel fall off the cliff. It would not be logical to fall for the honey trap and equip all HVKKs with aircraft that we cannot use properly. The threat to us would be that the most basic capabilities and operational competence would fall out of our control. Therefore, any new deliveries other than the delivery of the planes flown by our pilots would ruin us. There was no point in putting the US's leash around our own neck.



We would not have our own logistics ecosystem. Because at every step we would take in the logistics ecosystem, we would be under the control of the USA for every part. Unlike F-16s, the logistics ecosystem would be under the constant surveillance of the USA.
We would not even be able to maintain the engine without the US observation mission at the facilities.
We would not be allowed to integrate our own national air to air, air to ground munitions. We would be doomed to constantly order US ammunition for the F-35's lifetime.


The F-35 fighter jet could be a good aircraft for countries that are not politically or militarily opposed to the United States. A country that directly delivered air defense systems to PKK/YPG (they gave NASAMS, provided that it was under the control of its own soldiers). They weren't going to give us a blank check when we always had the possibility of going to war with Greece.
By the way, I am still against Turkey purchasing more than 2 squadrons of F-35s. Anything more will increase our addiction.
 

Zafer

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F35 is a sinking ship only hopeless countries that has no other means to defend themselves stand on it.

Even if they give them for free we won't get them. They will do all harm and no good to us.

The only reason they want to sell them to us is to try and save it from sinking while also taking money away from our projects.
 
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Does the F-35B has its own production line? If so, Türkiye should start talks asap. TCG ANADOLU is waiting.
We will also need at least a squadron of F-35C's for the newly-announced aircraft carrier. Plus, I can't stress the importance of getting a look at the F135 engine hands on enough!
 
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