TR Navy Navy|News & Discussions

[Anmdt]

Why The Finnish Navy has added ASW capability even in FACs? Does Towing a sonar at low speeds from fast attack craft with torpedoes sound reasonable while they already had compact commercial sonar? They did it for shallow water ASW.

The answer is hidden in the Finnish Navy Fleet composition.

There are 8 combatants in the fleet, there are no dedicated ASW ships in the fleet. Also no dedicated ASW helicopters or aircraft of any kind. Also, I remember that commercial sonar was used at first, and more or less it does the job as intended in littoral (shallow) waters, and after a point they added another sonar on some other ships (but I remember this weakly, so don't take my words for granted).

So all in all a solution becomes valid within a Navy's doctrinal approach.

LWT like Leonardo MU90, has an effective range of 12 to 25 km.

Tuzla Class are littoral patrol boats. Their range is no more than 1900km. So they are not going to take on the responsibilities of a Corvette or even a Fast Attack Boat. (Kilic Class has a range of 1900km too. But have a different purpose, even though it is essentially to be deployed for littoral waters like Tuzla Class)
Tuzla Class has a specific job of being an ASW vessel. Any submarine coming close to our harbours and littoral shipping lines will have to be detected and if necessary, targeted by it, without herself being a target. Also she has to be able to pluck out any submarine lurking at the bottom of the shallow waters close to our coasts.
How is a Tuzla class to defend herself against a submarine and against an AShM fired from a helicopter ?
It needs a better sonar and better self defence weaponry to be more versatile.

From this point of view, even the ocean-going ASW destroyers are not capable of countering or detecting submarines beyond the submarine's sensing capability. And launching a torpedo is not the primary strength of a submarine, it remains hidden until its functions are needed. Thus, ASW is mainly aimed at the submarines that are set for an infiltration, shadowing mission and when the submarine passes these blockades there may be not much to do but unleash all ASW capability of the fleet or the Navy.

In addition, AShM is not a valid target set for a 300 meter boat, I doubt anyone will fire a full fledged AShM at a 300 ton target as it is likely to miss or even if hit it might sink, here I will be more concerned about Hellfire, Spike-NLOS or loitering munitions that can definitely hit and render the ship immobile. The ultimate goal in naval warfare is to disable / render immobile a ship so that the enemy has to send a rescue team, a ship, and more to the area to make it vulnerable, etc.

To counter Hellfire, Spike and other NLOS I think instead of a CIWS we need some manpads, anti-UAV solutions and better sensors to detect carrier of these threats and a USV will work dearly for the case. I think the winning part of an upgrade will be the addition of a USV on NTPB.

USV (with sonar or Sungur depending on the mission), Sungur-Levent launcher, MAR-D or scaled down ARDA (CENK-300N)* and CENK-100 or AKREP-200N* for better target tracking and maybe ORKA/TORK torpedo could be the maximum of a possible MLU. Also i believe in a pure HAS mode Levent missile can attain longer ranges.

*These will be luxury if happens.

I think if TORK goes through and a miniature torpedo is introduced after the project, these can be used with UAVs similar to how Corvettes/Frigates use helicopters to deliver a dipping sonar and torpedo bundle to hunt and kill.

 

[Saithan]

That sounds way more realistic and doable than the "Let's arm it as if it was a Corvette/Frigate"

Small and compact solutions are the key here, and it has been mentioned earlier in the thread.

As well as the Sonobuoy network-centric solutions. I've also mentioned how fond I am of the idea of having Smart Buoys in our waters and EEZ in a spiderweb-like formation. That can hopefully function as passive signal relayer of sorts.

But I'm not a engineer or so, so I don't know how much our smallest sonars weight and whether it can be fitted into a Buoy of sorts.

Word’s Smallest Imaging Sonar Launched - Impact Subsea

Impact Subsea has launched the world’s smallest imaging sonar.

www.impactsubsea.co.uk

Found this and it's the smallest, so it should be possible to make one that would work according to some defense doctrin.

 

[UkroTurk]

As well as the Sonobuoy network-centric solutions. I've also mentioned how fond I am of the idea of having Smart Buoys in our waters and EEZ in a spiderweb-like formation. That can hopefully function as passive signal relayer of sorts.

IMO we must have acoustic sensors network.

Regarding Tuzla Class, i quit because again i met conservatives.

 

[Saithan]

Yes, but those are too small. We want something bigger, like these and have civilian, marine biological institutes do the placing and gathering of data, and even involve TCG into this, so that we have an excuse to develop TCG capabilities further.

Of course the sonar part should be there in some of these buoys so that the enemy can't tell.

 

[Fatman17]

Middle East & Africa​

Turkiye’s leading naval engineering company STM unveiled a new unmanned autonomous underwater vehicle, STM NETA, at the SAHA EXPO 2024 defense industry exhibition in Istanbul. This system, designed using entirely local and national resources, marks a significant milestone in Turkey’s development of naval technologies. The initial version of the UUV, named the STM NETA 300, is intended for mine detection missions and has broad applications in both military and civilian operations.

 

[Quasar]

Reis class submarines in training. The first submarine of the Reis Class Submarine Project, TCG PİRİREİS, and the second submarine, TCG HIZIRREİS, built within the scope of the Air Independent Propulsion System Submarine Project, conducted “Acclimation Training and Vertical Replenishment Training with Helicopter” in the Marmara Sea.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1850475163516563465

 

[Sanchez]

Reis class submarines in training. The first submarine of the Reis Class Submarine Project, TCG PİRİREİS, and the second submarine, TCG HIZIRREİS, built within the scope of the Air Independent Propulsion System Submarine Project, conducted “Acclimation Training and Vertical Replenishment Training with Helicopter” in the Marmara Sea.

We waited so long for this.

 

[Fatman17]

Turkish Navy Unveils MUGEM: A Fully Indigenous Aircraft Carrier https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...ls-mugem-a-fully-indigenous-aircraft-carrier/

Turkey becoming a major armaments manufacturer and supplier

 

[Fatman17]

 

[somegoodusername]

What does TCG Anadolu do in it's missions currently? It doesn't have any helicopters on board, it doesn't have any USVs in it. Does it just wonder around empty without any mission load?

 

[chngr]

What does TCG Anadolu do in it's missions currently? It doesn't have any helicopters on board, it doesn't have any USVs in it. Does it just wonder around empty without any mission load?
View attachment 71708

its amphibious ship with dock...why people just dont get it

 

[Anmdt]

its amphibious ship with dock...why people just dont get it

It supposed to have helicopters though.

Landing Helicopter Dock
It is not an LPD with a flat top landing pad and a dock
It is an LHD with a flat top having access to a hangar where helicopters may be maintained, stored and with a Dock.

If we are utilizing her as an LPD then i have no issues with the current form but it has never been the purpose since 2010. The project changed from having an LPD at 10,000 tons~ to LHD at 25,000~ tons.

 

[Sanchez]

What does TCG Anadolu do in it's missions currently? It doesn't have any helicopters on board, it doesn't have any USVs in it. Does it just wonder around empty without any mission load?

From the same exercise.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1851549731672965456

-
To add, "Anadolu Task Group" seems mostly stood unchanged since its latest activation back in May, again for Neptune Strike 2024.1

1 Ada Class, 1 frigate(G or Meko), 3 army Cougars, 2 AH-1Ws, 1-2 Seahawks and a contingent of marines. And to add again, we don't know how many birds are in the lower deck. There are 40 aviation guys in the photo below. These 7 helicopters would have 24 personnel at most. They are either there for training or there might be more helicopters attached.

 

[UkroTurk]

DeckFinder

Airbus DeckFinder™ is a local positioning system for precise and safe automatic take-off, landing and navigation, day and night in all weather conditions.

www.airbus.com

Airbus to Upgrade Turkey’s ALPIN Helicopter Drone

Airbus will integrate its DeckFinder positioning system into Turkey’s ALPIN unmanned helicopter as part of an agreement with Titra.

thedefensepost.com

Airbus would integrate its DeckFinder positioning system into ALPIN unmanned helicopter so could we see operational ALPIN soon on TCG ANADOLU?


Does ALPIN match the mission of TCG ANADOLU?

 

[Tornadoss]

I wish they would develop something like MQ-8C drone for the navy, Alpin Titra is seems weak and not suitable for sea conditions.

 

[Sanchez]

I wish they would develop something like MQ-8C drone for the navy, Alpin Titra is seems weak and not suitable for sea conditions.

Like any other, that is a venue that needs to be explored.
Americans are unhappy with it.

"...according to the service’s fiscal year 2025 budget request, which earmarks no funding for the 36 MQ-8Cs the service has acquired. “Operational employment of the MQ-8C will end in Q4 FY2024 and sundown will be completed by Q4 FY2026

Asked why the service is retiring a capability it referred to as “a pillar in the navy and Marine Corps unmanned campaign plan” as recently as May 2022, Adams says the decision is rooted in cost versus capability.

“If you look at Fire Scout right now, it’s sitting around $28 million per copy. I can do the same mission with a $100,000 to $250,000 piece of gear. That’s what has changed – the maturation of group 3 UAV systems since that time.”

US Navy’s MQ-8C Fire Scouts fly into retirement just two years after entering operational service

US Navy (USN) budget documents reveal that the service plans to retire the newest variant of an unmanned helicopter it spent more than a decade and nearly $1.5 billion developing.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[UkroTurk]

“If yThat’s what has changed – the maturation of group 3 UAV systems since that time.”

US Navy’s MQ-8C Fire Scouts fly into retirement just two years after entering operational service

US Navy (USN) budget documents reveal that the service plans to retire the newest variant of an unmanned helicopter it spent more than a decade and nearly $1.5 billion developing.

www.flightglobal.com

"Group 3 unmanned aerial systems (UAS) are vehicles weighing less than 599kg (1,320lb) and that fly slower than 250kt (463km/h), like the Boeing Insitu RQ-21 Blackjack now in service with the USN and US Marine Corps for ISR missions."

So will Alpin be optimal solution?

 

[Sanchez]

"Group 3 unmanned aerial systems (UAS) are vehicles weighing less than 599kg (1,320lb) and that fly slower than 250kt (463km/h), like the Boeing Insitu RQ-21 Blackjack now in service with the USN and US Marine Corps for ISR missions."

So will Alpin be optimal solution?

Maybe, or something like the S-100. But by their nature rotorcraft have lower endurance.

 

[dBSPL]

IMO, Fly BVLOS's VTOL capable fixed wing UAV was a very good approach for naval platforms, and the platform could be further developed and expanded with the support of SANs if navy consider it.

I also wish that Kemankeş, which rocket-assisted take-off is being currently testing, had a net-capture system for the navy. If this loitering system can be stowed with a closed canister, we may the option of integrating it into most naval vessels in future, esp for missile boats.

 

[Huelague]

@Anmdt , bro is it possible to equip submarines with cavitation propulsion?