TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Strong AI]

Minister Kacır:
By taking our long-range missile development capabilities to more advanced levels, we will definitely reach a level of deterrence where no one will even think of harming Turkey.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1854490053923225983

We need nukes for that.

 

[Yasar_TR]

AKINCI TİHA İHA-230 ile 155 kilometreden vurdu | SavunmaSanayiST

BAYKAR Bayraktar AKINCI TİHA, Roketsan İHA-230 Süpersonik Balistik Füze ile 155 kilometre uzaklıktaki hedefleri başarıyla vurdu.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Akıncı has hit a target 155km away with TRG230. This is more than double the stated range of the missile. On top of it, it is firing it from stand off range whilst at a considerably slow speed.

It is about time now that our F16s are also packed with trg300 missiles. They are cheap and their range will exceed 300km. F16s can fire these from 40000ft and whilst at supersonic speeds. Having flight speeds in excess of 4.2 Mach they will be difficult to intercept. F16s can carry 4 of the trg300.

 

[Saithan]

Isn't accuracy better the closer you are to the target, and if that is the case could it be the reason we're using F16 and not UCAVs ? with the range of 155km I'd say we don't need to use F-16 for bombing missions against terrorists.

 

[2033]

Isn't accuracy better the closer you are to the target, and if that is the case could it be the reason we're using F16 and not UCAVs ? with the range of 155km I'd say we don't need to use F-16 for bombing missions against terrorists.

Mk series bombs are enough for terrorists.

They will probably use Iha-230 for radars and air defense systems

 

[Yasar_TR]

Isn't accuracy better the closer you are to the target, and if that is the case could it be the reason we're using F16 and not UCAVs ? with the range of 155km I'd say we don't need to use F-16 for bombing missions against terrorists.

F16s are used because MK83 and MK84 class bombs can only be delivered by F16 planes. Especially the bunker busting types. To be effective against deep caves dwellers we need these heavier bombs.

No it is not necessarily true that closer you are the more accurate your bombs will be. If you have a good seeker head, not too much weather anomalies, and you are not out of range, irrespective of your distance your hit accuracy should not change. These are, after all, ”Smart” bombs. Remember most of the modern missiles have data link to re target etc. They can easily use midcourse corrections. But the longer a missile stays in the air the more chance there is of it being subjected to jamming. Yet, modern missiles have many gizmos that overcome many jamming techniques used by adversaries.

The Siha-230 bomb used here has a relatively weak explosive charge (42kg of war head weight which may include non explosive components) if compared to a MK84 bomb that weighs 945kg and contains 429kg of high explosive charge, it is dwarfed. Due to its impact speed and the amount of charge it carries, Siha-230 could easily knock out even a tank. But it has no where near the destructive and penetration power of a MK84 bomb.

 

[Strong AI]

F16s are used because MK83 and MK84 class bombs can only be delivered by F16 planes.

AFAIK Akinci UCAV can carry one Mk 84 (NEB).

 

[Ripley]

AFAIK Akinci UCAV can carry one Mk 84 (NEB).

That’s what I remember too.

A decision of choice between F16 (or any jet fighter for that matter) and Akinci must, I think, lie in a limited time frame opportunity where you need to react quick and deliver Mk84 faster, in multitude compared to an Akıncı

 

[Yasar_TR]

Akıncı with a powerful Ukranian engine actually took off with a 870kg NEB and other payloads totalling some 1360kg and reached 30000ft, flying for 13 hours 24 minutes. Total take off weight was 6049kg.

This was to prove a point. As it is, this bomb is not guided. It needs a HGK guidance kit fitted and properly integrated in to the Akinci avionics.
Currently F16s are the only platform that can fire MK83 and MK 84 class bombs in our airforce.
Akinci can carry a SOM missile too. But it has not been configured for it yet. With P&W-PT6 engine it’s endurance should be longer and total payload must be well over 1500kg.

I am actually looking forward to the version with PT6 + long range Gökhan or extended range Gokdogan. That will put the cat among the pigeons. The aesa radar is not a necessity as our Peace Eagles can guide the missiles from a far.
Also at 225kg each, the UAV-230 missiles can be loaded on to Akinci in multiple quantities. (Potentially 6-7) and Akinci can fire them from stand off distances without endangering itself.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

 

[Zoth]

Just a small addition to this, in this sector our private companies started to crazily invest into 155mm or artillery ammunition production in general, this 360K yearly production is only for ASSAN, there are other producers such as MKE and other companies that i can't remember, again in Kaner Kurt's other videos Kozan abi talks about this advancement, we are going to be artillery shell heaven after 2 Koreas.

 

[Osman]

Besides Assan we have Arca which has already built a 155 mm production capacity of 360 k and even plans for 500 k in near future. Besides them İstiklal has a capacity of 50 k. Mke should be no smaller than arcas I think

Anual production capacity for 122 mm rockets

Assan 100 k
İstiklal 50k
Arca 30 k
Mke ?

And Assan has a 80 k mk series bomb production capacity (all of them will be filled bomb) + 50 k soviet bombs production capacity

Besides its existing capacity, Mkek's last investment includes 43 k mk series unfilled bomb capacity with 11 300 mk series filled bomb capacity.

These are huge numbers in a world where the general purpose bomb stock of USA is around 750k - 900k.

 

[UkroTurk]

Have you ever thought why there is Korkut 25 CIWS? Because 25mm caliber ammunition is backbone of our army. MKEK produces just two cal of ammunitions for auto-cannons.
35mm and 25mm.

So what do i mean? I expect to see Korkut25 for different turrets and for different platforms .

Could we see soon compact Gökdeniz25 Naval CIWS?

SAHA Expo 2024 - Aselsan Korkut 25; a C-UAS hard-kill solution for light armoured vehicles - EDR Magazine

Aselsan developed a light solution part of the Korkut air defence systems family: the Korkut 25, installable on a variety of light platforms.

www.edrmagazine.eu

The Atom 25 mm round is a pre-fragmented projectile filled with high explosive. From the rear to the front we find the power source, the base fuse with its electronics, the booster and finally the pre-fragmented body. The latter was the subject of deep studies in terms of materiel and pre-fragmentation in order to generate the appropriate cloud of fragments to cause maximum damage to the target, usually a Class 1 drone. While the 35 mm round used on the Korkut is filled with tungsten cylinders, the room available in the 25 mm did not allowed such a solution hence the decision to go for a pre-frag HE ammunition.

25×137 mm Atom airburst round

Fragmentation (weaponry) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Great solution for Shahid like Kamikaze drones and every warship deserves it.

@Yasar_TR Abi what would you say?

I really wonder if the fuse of 25mm cal ammunition as same as fuse of 35mm ATOM. Time fuse or proximity fuse?

 

[zio]

View attachment 72125
View attachment 72126


Have you ever thought why there is Korkut 25 CIWS? Because 25mm caliber ammunition is backbone of our army. MKEK produces just two cal of ammunitions for auto-cannons.
35mm and 25mm.

So what do i mean? I expect to see Korkut25 for different turrets and for different platforms .

Could we see soon compact Gökdeniz25 Naval CIWS?
View attachment 72136

SAHA Expo 2024 - Aselsan Korkut 25; a C-UAS hard-kill solution for light armoured vehicles - EDR Magazine

Aselsan developed a light solution part of the Korkut air defence systems family: the Korkut 25, installable on a variety of light platforms.

www.edrmagazine.eu

The Atom 25 mm round is a pre-fragmented projectile filled with high explosive. From the rear to the front we find the power source, the base fuse with its electronics, the booster and finally the pre-fragmented body. The latter was the subject of deep studies in terms of materiel and pre-fragmentation in order to generate the appropriate cloud of fragments to cause maximum damage to the target, usually a Class 1 drone. While the 35 mm round used on the Korkut is filled with tungsten cylinders, the room available in the 25 mm did not allowed such a solution hence the decision to go for a pre-frag HE ammunition.
View attachment 72129
25×137 mm Atom airburst round

Fragmentation (weaponry) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Great solution for Shahid like Kamikaze drones and every warship deserves it.

@Yasar_TR Abi what would you say?

I really wonder if the fuse of 25mm cal ammunition as same as fuse of 35mm ATOM. Time fuse or proximity fuse?

I think It is proximity fuse

 

[Saithan]

I honestly don't see the usage of foreign engine as anything but dependencies on foreign supply. If we had a doctrine that also included domestic engine and continuous test and battleproven then I wouldn't be so worried. Like 2 Ukrainian engine, 2P&W and 1 domestic.

Of course all platforms must be tested to the limit of their capabilities, but I think each platform should be used optimal. If the domestic engine is the least capable it should still be used to deliver deadly payload, so we can gather data and improve on it. Hopefully it's good enough to deliver 82-84 mk and hopefully jdam types as well.

 

[Oublious]

 

[Trakya_forever]

AKINCI TİHA İHA-230 ile 155 kilometreden vurdu | SavunmaSanayiST

BAYKAR Bayraktar AKINCI TİHA, Roketsan İHA-230 Süpersonik Balistik Füze ile 155 kilometre uzaklıktaki hedefleri başarıyla vurdu.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Akıncı has hit a target 155km away with TRG230. This is more than double the stated range of the missile. On top of it, it is firing it from stand off range whilst at a considerably slow speed.

It is about time now that our F16s are also packed with trg300 missiles. They are cheap and their range will exceed 300km. F16s can fire these from 40000ft and whilst at supersonic speeds. Having flight speeds in excess of 4.2 Mach they will be difficult to intercept. F16s can carry 4 of the trg300.

TRG300s are only 585 kg with the warhead of 105 kg. I guess Roketsan will produce a new rocket with a bigger diameter and weight. F16s can carry 2 * 1000 kg rockets. In that way we can easily exceed 500 km for ALBM class.

 

[Saithan]

If the f16 or any other flying platform is going to be launching them, doesn't that mean it'll be a missile ? If that is the case does it have to be bigger ? Or would the size be determined by how far we want to be able to go.

What range would we want for TRG300-missile ? Or would a jdam type solution be better, like glide bombs.

Also does AD systems works better on missiles compared to glide bombs ?

At the end of the day economic cheap but reliable would be preferred right ?

 

[Kaan Azman]

I think It is proximity fuse

Nope, the programmer on the barrel is clearly visible but as Ukro said, the airburst effect is different on the 25 mm ATOM

 

[UkroTurk]

Nope, the programmer on the barrel is clearly visible but as Ukro said, the airburst effect is different on the 25 mm ATOM

Then it's party time
I have an another crazy idea. We also have at hand MKE 20mm 6 barrel Gatling gun as well as Burç CIWS 3 barrel 20mm Gatling gun.
What if the Gatling gun fired 20mm cal ammunition with proximity fuse? Absolutely there won't be any gap however you would have to sacrifice kinetic energy because of HE ammunition.

EDIT:

Proximity fuzes on fighter aircraft cannons?

Were proximity fuzes ever used in the 20mm cannons mounted n fighter aircraft, and if they were, how effective were they? If not, would they have been as effective as they were when used for artillery or antiaircraft guns?

ww2aircraft.net

Very precious information about AA ammunition's proximity fuses



Some important details from this website

* The Pre-Fragmented HE round (PFHE) had a proximity fuze with an effective range of 6.5 metres against aircraft and the improved Mk2 could effectively double this figure

*So, because of that clever design every round that is on target explodes at the ideal distance +/- maybe 50 cm or 18 inches.The ideal distance for frag damage was about 70 ft or 21 metres (compared to 6 metres for shock wave damage).

Bofors SAK 40/L70 Mk.3 Mk.4 AA naval gun BAE Systems

bofors 40/l70 sak aa naval gun mk.3 mk.4 navy ship bae systems

www.seaforces.org

Why noone said it ? :

The introduction of a 40mm proximity fuzed round in the early 1970s was another improvement.

Has Turkish Navy acquired such PFHE ammunitions yet?

So Tuzla Class ships have already had capable CIWS! Twin Dardo 40 L70 appear to have used proximity fused ammunition for ages!
@Anmdt

 

[boredaf]

If the f16 or any other flying platform is going to be launching them, doesn't that mean it'll be a missile ? If that is the case does it have to be bigger ? Or would the size be determined by how far we want to be able to go.

What range would we want for TRG300-missile ? Or would a jdam type solution be better, like glide bombs.

Also does AD systems works better on missiles compared to glide bombs ?

At the end of the day economic cheap but reliable would be preferred right ?

UAV-230 has about the same specifications as TRG-230, but has more than twice the range, 150+ km to TRG's 70 km. I believe same thing happened when Roketsan tested UAV-122 as well. So, TRG-300 when launched from an F-16, which flies higher and faster than an Akıncı, it should easily surpass 200+ kms of range.

These artillery rocket turned missiles would naturally be more expensive than, for example, a MK83 + a guidance kit, but, in comparison to a cruise missile they would be far more economical. We already produce and use lots of MK series bombs with guidance kits and recently got Tolun. With these new ones, we'll be filling an empty position between guided bombs and cruise missiles, they have great range, supersonic and relatively cheap so they are a great option to have.