TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[TR_123456]

the most optimistic timeline I could fathom is;

- CDR in 2026 and start of production of the first prototype
- first firing in 2027
- first flight in 2029
- first delivery 2031

but this is borderline impossible. TF6000 was fired this year and won't be delivered before 2028.

I do think that the testing phase of TF35K will stretch the calendar by a few years.

We'll see,patience.

 

[2033]

We'll see,patience.

I have thought a lot about this. I estimate that the first delivery of a Kaan with a TF35K will be 2033.

The most tiring thing for us with this engine will be the long duration of the tests. It will take at least 4-5 years.

 

[UcanTost]

What kind of logic do you think we would not even be able to develop and manufacture a normal screws?
The development of an complex high performance engine takes 8-10 years on average, why should this period be different for Turkey?
Are you perhaps suffering from a feeling of inferiority that only the USA, EU and Asia can develop high technology and Turkey should not try?
Thank God there are more people who have the faith and the will to research develop, otherwise we would be a country of absolute backwardness like Afghanistan.

People like them who don't believe in their own abilities have hindered the country's self-esteem for decades. Nation and people alike become successful when they achieve things and this is achieved step by step. If you can't handle that, you shouldn't read any more news in the Defense Industry.

I don't know of any country in the world that hasn't had the same difficulties producing their own high performance engine and the key to the solution is time and perseverance.

You are dragging my comments somewhere else and making up assumptions.

There is a reason Korea went with the KFX program. If you create a airframe that is larger than the F22 with engines less powerfull than a tiny f16, you have created a very inefficient product. It takes countries 8-10 years to create good engines, this goes for countries that CAN make those(Russia/China failed btw). Countries that can't, don't. If Turkey wants a go at it, fine, but the package doesn't make sense.

The plane won't be ready for another 10 years and that is with the f110 engines. The tf35000 isn't guaranteed and wars like Ukraine show that warfare is rapidly changing. I am not even talking about the nepotism that has already rusted the defense industry and the very low funding the project has.

Turkey should build a Toyota Yaris GR and not a Bugatti with 1.6tdi engine.

 

[UcanTost]

All tests done in 2 years(2028 to 2030).
End of 2030 first 12 KAAN's with the new domestic engine.


If i am alive till then we talk again.

Yeah, not going to happen. I don't understand what you guys are smoking.

 

[hugh]

If you create a airframe that is larger than the F22 with engines less powerfull than a tiny f16, you have created a very inefficient product.

KAAN will be lighter than F22 and will use F110s for the first block. The rear IR signature will be a compromise and it won't supercruise. but it will be the best aircraft that a country can buy apart from the F35. does that make KAAN worthless to you? and what is your suggestion exactly?

 

[Turkic]

Can we just put a restriction about how much can we talk nonesensely ? Because let alone an argument, someone ( Yes, I'm talking about you @UcanTost ) is talking without telling why does he talk that way. This forum is not somewhere people share their thoughts without a reason. If you have no argument to talk over, don't tell it. If you will, just say "imo" and don't argue with people about it. And if someone doesn't stop talking none-sense, I think admins should take action then. Otherwise this forum would be full of 'not worth to read' posts.

 

[2033]

Yeah, not going to happen. I don't understand what you guys are smoking.

I am absolutely sure that Turkey will develop the TF35K engine. I don't have the slightest doubt.

Your criticism was about the plane being big and cumbersome, but then you started criticizing the engine. I guess you don't even know what you are criticizing.

TAI managed to develop the Hurjet flawlessly, even though it was the first time. Yes, some parts may be imported, but for a company building a jet aircraft for the first time, it is extraordinarily successful.

If TAI successfully developed the Hurjet, it will certainly succeed with the Kaan, on which it is working meticulously.

 

[blackjack]

A world leader in turbine engines, like Rolls Royce, still hasn’t got a working engine to fit in to the Tempest jet fighter.
The demonstrator plane will have two EJ200 engines powering it.
We need to give some slack to TEI and Tusas. You can not hurry these high end engine developments.

Forget about all the time they had to design a flat nozzle 3d thrust vectoring design. I already have doubts with the photos they are sharing because they don't even display round serrated nozzles most 5th gens display (excluding 2). I don't know about the world leader part if they have not shown the simplest stealth design in their engines like this.

The shitposting in the past on the Su-57 and KAAN nozzles will be long forgotten because it won't compare to a 6th gen(Tempest) flying around with round nozzles (not serrated with teeth even) is going to cause heart attacks if they really are flying a demonstrator in 2027 from what you have shown me.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Forget about all the time they had to design a flat nozzle 3d thrust vectoring design. I already have doubts with the photos they are sharing because they don't even display round serrated nozzles most 5th gens display (excluding 2). I don't know about the world leader part if they have not shown the simplest stealth design in their engines like this.
View attachment 72692 View attachment 72693
The shitposting in the past on the Su-57 and KAAN nozzles will be long forgotten because it won't compare to a 6th gen(Tempest) flying around with round nozzles (not serrated with teeth even) is going to cause heart attacks if they really are flying a demonstrator in 2027 from what you have shown me.

It seems you have not read the complete article. RR and IHI are developing the 6th generation engine that will eventually power the Tempest.

This engine is an industry demonstrator engine, that will fly the plane and give data to engineers in correcting and redesigning the plane should it need, until the correct engine is ready to power the plane. Similar to the F110 engine we are using for the KAAN.
In its current form the EJ200 engine delivers close to 14000lbf. RR has actually manufactured a 16200lbf dry thrust version of this engine and was confident to reach 17500lbf dry thrust. For testing purposes this is adequate.
But the actual engine of the tempest is going to be nowhere near this engine in terms of power and technology . For one thing it’s design particulars included adaptive cycle technology.
So I wouldn’t “judge a book by its cover” yet!

 

[Spitfire9]

A world leader in turbine engines, like Rolls Royce, still hasn’t got a working engine to fit in to the Tempest jet fighter.
The demonstrator plane will have two EJ200 engines powering it.
We need to give some slack to TEI and Tusas. You can not hurry these high end engine developments.

UK Advances Tempest Demonstrator Toward 2027 First Flight | Aviation Week Network

The UK is signaling Tempest’s lead over the European FCAS with advances in ground test rigs and engine aerodynamic work.

aviationweek.com

View attachment 72685

About RR (in conjunction with others) not having developed an engine for Tempest yet - GCAP has yet to be given the go ahead. It was in project evaluation and definition phase for the its first few years of existence. With the project on course to be launched in 2025, the nature of the engine design chosen should become more apparent. I hope the electrical generating capacity of the engine will be revealed. Little info about the aircraft has been released over the years but I have heard/read that 500Kw-1Mw generating capacity may be required from the engine.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

You are dragging my comments somewhere else and making up assumptions.

There is a reason Korea went with the KFX program. If you create a airframe that is larger than the F22 with engines less powerfull than a tiny f16, you have created a very inefficient product. It takes countries 8-10 years to create good engines, this goes for countries that CAN make those(Russia/China failed btw). Countries that can't, don't. If Turkey wants a go at it, fine, but the package doesn't make sense.

The plane won't be ready for another 10 years and that is with the f110 engines. The tf35000 isn't guaranteed and wars like Ukraine show that warfare is rapidly changing. I am not even talking about the nepotism that has already rusted the defense industry and the very low funding the project has.

Turkey should build a Toyota Yaris GR and not a Bugatti with 1.6tdi engine.

And what makes you think that?
TAI KAAN has approximately at least the first prototype would have 27 tons as take-off weight, if fully fueled and loaded with ammunition, at least in theory.
Both GE F-110-129 Engines each have a dry and wet thrust of 76KN/131KN.

TAI KAAN

To calculate the thrust-to-weight ratio for the TAI Kaan with two engines and a maximum takeoff weight of 27 tons, here are the details:

Given Data:

1. Thrust per engine: General Electric F110-GE-129

With afterburner: 131 kN per engine

For two engines:

Result:

The thrust-to-weight ratio of the TAI Kaan is approximately 0.98 at maximum takeoff weight with full afterburner thrust. If the aircraft operates at a lower weight (e.g., reduced fuel or fewer weapons), the ratio can exceed 1.0, improving acceleration and maneuverability.

F-22

To calculate the thrust-to-weight ratio of the F-22 Raptor when fully fueled and armed, we need the following data:

Given Data for the F-22 Raptor:

1. Engines: Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100

Thrust per engine (with afterburner): 156 kN

Total thrust for two engines:

Result:

The F-22 Raptor has a thrust-to-weight ratio of approximately 0.84 when fully fueled and armed (at its maximum takeoff weight). This value increases significantly when the fuel load decreases or the aircraft carries fewer weapons, often exceeding 1.1 in combat configurations with partial fuel and weapon loadouts.

TAI KAAN probably uses more composite, titanium materials than the F-22, The Second KAAN Prototype will probably be somewhat smaller and more delicate, probably 6-8% Lighter then the first Prototype.
We would then be talking about a thrust ratio of 1.10/1.20 and that is more then the State of the Art.

KAAN is actually an air superiority fighter with multi-role options. But it is not a bomb truck like the F-35 which is superior against other GEN 4+ aircraft but I doubt it has a chance against a J-20 Chengdu SU-57 at least in dogfight provided the radars of both aircraft have the F-35 under control.

 

[TR_123456]

For one thing it’s design particulars included adaptive cycle technology.

That(the engine) is a project we should join if possible.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

A small note about the actual Engine in TAI KAAN Its advantages and disadvantages.
Air battles are the absolute exception. In almost all missions, movement is almost exclusively subsonic. The short-term increase in performance is provided by the respective missiles. Pure super-sonic speeds beyond Mach 1.5 are only required for altitudes above 50 kft. Even several minutes in the trans-sonic range significantly reduce the remaining flight time. Today's weapons technology allows close encounters in almost all ranges. The times when an excess of speed was needed to penetrate ground-to-air defenses, see F-22, no longer exist. For this reason, super-cruise has been dispensed with for the F-35 and the focus is increasingly on the possible gain in time through optimized stealth. In the speed range beyond Mach 1.5, the respective stealth coating suffers and the costs for its maintenance increase. Today, only short-term "sprints" of Mach 1.6-1.8 are required. With controlled air intakes or a corresponding excess thrust, Mach 2 and more can be achieved, but why? A current guided missile only needs seconds to achieve this, and even an F-22 takes minutes.

Significantly more powerful engines therefore make little sense provided the design remains the same.
32000 or 35000 LBF for the owm domestic Turkish Engine for KAAN is more than enough.

 

[uçuyorum]

A small note about the actual Engine in TAI KAAN Its advantages and disadvantages.
Air battles are the absolute exception. In almost all missions, movement is almost exclusively subsonic. The short-term increase in performance is provided by the respective missiles. Pure super-sonic speeds beyond Mach 1.5 are only required for altitudes above 50 kft. Even several minutes in the trans-sonic range significantly reduce the remaining flight time. Today's weapons technology allows close encounters in almost all ranges. The times when an excess of speed was needed to penetrate ground-to-air defenses, see F-22, no longer exist. For this reason, super-cruise has been dispensed with for the F-35 and the focus is increasingly on the possible gain in time through optimized stealth. In the speed range beyond Mach 1.5, the respective stealth coating suffers and the costs for its maintenance increase. Today, only short-term "sprints" of Mach 1.6-1.8 are required. With controlled air intakes or a corresponding excess thrust, Mach 2 and more can be achieved, but why? A current guided missile only needs seconds to achieve this, and even an F-22 takes minutes.

Significantly more powerful engines therefore make little sense provided the design remains the same.
32000 or 35000 LBF for the owm domestic Turkish Engine for KAAN is more than enough.

If KAAN can match F35 level of speed and agility thats sufficient for us. In fact at this stage being able to reach F35 for any given cabability is more than enough for us. If we have any extras that's nice to have, but not necessary.

 

[YeşilVatan]

If KAAN can match F35 level of speed and agility thats sufficient for us. In fact at this stage being able to reach F35 for any given cabability is more than enough for us. If we have any extras that's nice to have, but not necessary.

Well, what makes F-35 a wonder is mostly sensor fusion AFAIK. That is really hard to achieve and gets fairly arcane & esoteric for a layman to understand. I have no idea if wwe can do it or not. But mechanically, I think it will fly way higher. This has specific advantages WRT air superiority missions.

 

[uçuyorum]

Well, what makes F-35 a wonder is mostly sensor fusion AFAIK. That is really hard to achieve and gets fairly arcane & esoteric for a layman to understand. I have no idea if wwe can do it or not. But mechanically, I think it will fly way higher. This has specific advantages WRT air superiority missions.

Well I think we will do fine, but F-35 can be combined with all the capabilities of aegis ship and all the US satellites, uavs etc. as well. Near our borders we should have pretty good coverage from all sort of stuff like HAKIM and what not, and the actual sensors we can put on KAAN i am confident as well. The bigger bottleneck would be software, datalinks and overall processing power ( because you would probably need to transmit parts of data to central server to process and spread to rest of network for maximum usefulness, a lot of money) and also on board processing and transmission to nearby assets of collected useful data. You need to create libraries from that data and classify them accurately, stuff like signal data from enemy radars... and then you need to then deliver the updated software or parameters to other assets in the field, can that be real time or would that require going back to base etc

 

[Iskander]

Thank you for your answer. No, I had no other goal. This question had been in my mind for a long time. So I decided to ask it on the forum.
As you can see, I haven't written a single sentence about Turkey's domestic policy for a whole year. Except for one or two compliments to Erdogan. And I don't discuss religious issues.
Only after reading your answer did I realize how tactless and inappropriate my question was.
Yes, I would also like to delete my previous post.
Sorry.

 

[Huelague]

Did you know that Kaan is 10 times less visible on radar (rcs) than F-35.

 

[hugh]

Did you know that Kaan is 10 times less visible on radar (rcs) than F-35.

You're not serious, right?

 

[Huelague]

Maybe this is more serious

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/376682089_TF-23_KAAN_TURKISH_5th_Gen_Fighter_Jet