TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Huelague]

@TheInsider

About the „ACE“ on FCAS

„The variable cycle engine (VCE) architecture allows flexible adaptation to operational requirements, resulting in high specific thrust and low fuel consumption. The VCE architecture differs from conventional drive systems primarily by an adjustment mechanism and an additional flow channel. With the help of the adjustment mechanism, the engine control regulates how much sucked-in air flows through the respective flow channels and the core engine. Thanks to this variable distribution, the thermodynamic cycle of the engine can be optimally adapted to the most common operating requirements and thus guarantees a high specific thrust and low fuel consumption.“

Kurz erklärt: New Generation Fighter Engine

Triebwerk der nächsten Generation: Einblicke in die Schlüsseltechnologien hinter dem New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE).

aeroreport.de

 

[TheInsider]

@TheInsider

About the „ACE“ on FCAS

„The variable cycle engine (VCE) architecture allows flexible adaptation to operational requirements, resulting in high specific thrust and low fuel consumption. The VCE architecture differs from conventional drive systems primarily by an adjustment mechanism and an additional flow channel. With the help of the adjustment mechanism, the engine control regulates how much sucked-in air flows through the respective flow channels and the core engine. Thanks to this variable distribution, the thermodynamic cycle of the engine can be optimally adapted to the most common operating requirements and thus guarantees a high specific thrust and low fuel consumption.“

Kurz erklärt: New Generation Fighter Engine

Triebwerk der nächsten Generation: Einblicke in die Schlüsseltechnologien hinter dem New Generation Fighter Engine (NGFE).

aeroreport.de

There is no FCAS and there is also no French ACE.

 

[Huelague]

There is no FCAS and there is also no French ACE.

That’s not the point here. You mentioned that Tempest and FCAS are no 6. Gen. Fighter Jet, because both have no ACE engines. It seems you are literally wrong, proofed by official links.

Still, France (Safran) and Germany (MTU) are working on ACE.

 

[TheInsider]

That’s not the point here. You mentioned that Tempest and FCAS are no 6. Gen. Fighter Jet, because both have no ACE engines. It seems you are literally wrong, proofed by official links.

Still, France (Safran) and Germany (MTU) are working on ACE.

Tempest has no ACE and has a tail, it is not a 6th gen. Engine of Tempest produces more electric that is it. FCAS and French ACE don't exist, FCAS drawings have a tail. It is not 6th gen proved literally. A fighter with a tail can't have wide-spectrum stealth unless something like plasma stealth becomes viable.

 

[Samba]

Tempest has no ACE and has a tail, it is not a 6th gen. Engine of Tempest produces more electric that is it. FCAS and French ACE don't exist, FCAS drawings have a tail. It is not 6th gen proved literally. A fighter with a tail can't have wide-spectrum stealth unless something like plasma stealth becomes viable.

All aside China claims they developed a quantum radar that can detect so called stealth fighters.

 

[Zafer]

All aside China claims they developed a quantum radar that can detect so called stealth fighters.

Quatum radar too has range limitations, like 100 km AFAIK.

 

[Yasar_TR]

According to news coming in from media sources RR have not really given up on an Adaptive Cycle Engine. In fact it has it in its programme going forward. But seeing what has happened with F35 whilst being part of the initial development, and what problems it is still living with, they have decided to put it as a retro fitting idea for next iteration of the Tempest. For the first iteration they will play it safe.

Integrating an ACE to a plane is not an easy task. This is a totally new technology that will have to be integrated in to a platform that has been primarily designed to be flown with turbofan engines.

Integrating an adaptive cycle engine (ACE) into a jet aircraft is difficult due to the engine's inherent design complexity. ACE features unique operational components such as Core-Driven Fan Stages and mode selection valves with variable area bypass injectors.
It is all very well firing and testing these engines on their own. But having to integrate them to a flying jet fighter in real life is another story. Ensuring all components are performance-matched across the entire flight envelope for a plane is a major engineering challenge and improper matching can lead to instability and/or efficiency problems.
Thermal management of the ACE’s third stream in to the plane’s specific architecture is a challenge in it’s own right. Engine's size, shape, and airflow requirements differ from conventional engines and will require airframe modifications not normally expected. Ace’s demand for airflow, changes significantly across modes and will require inlet and exhaust matching adjustments not found in conventional engines. A plane flying with them has to be adjusted to accommodate it all, seamlessly.

Taking all this in to consideration, rather than half flying a plane with an ACE, RR is going along with a safer route of a turbofan that is few steps ahead of it’s competitors as turbofans go. Especially the timeline they they have set for themselves it is the logical route.

Tempest will have special composite structural surfaces that will rely on dynamic stealth rather than coating. It will rely on heavy and powerful EW for stealth as well as its shape without detracting from agility and manoeuvrability. According to a BAE official it will be the first UK jet fighter that could fly transatlantic without needing refuelling. It should be able to carry up to 10000lb of munitions.

Here is an interesting article on 6th gen jets

What makes a fighter jet 'sixth gen' and why it matters

Sixth-gen fighters are being built for the wars of the future, wars that will rely more on stealth, sensors, and long-range weapons.

interestingengineering.com

 

[alfonsvlora]

Hi guys.
I'm not a real aviation technology analyst. But I understand the basics like everyone else!
One thing we're sure of is that the EU has reached Level 4+ in its technological development. It hasn't reached Level 5, otherwise we would have seen the results... For some time now, they've been throwing ideas at us about developing sixth-generation aircraft. This reminds me of a joke that's long been told in my country:
A group of bricklayers were building a building, and when they reached the fourth floor, they ran out of bricks and turned to their boss:
"Boss, we don't have any more bricks for the fifth floor!"
And the boss replied: "Really?" Okay then, let's continue with the sixth floor...

 

[boredaf]

Hi guys.
I'm not a real aviation technology analyst. But I understand the basics like everyone else!
One thing we're sure of is that the EU has reached Level 4+ in its technological development. It hasn't reached Level 5, otherwise we would have seen the results... For some time now, they've been throwing ideas at us about developing sixth-generation aircraft. This reminds me of a joke that's long been told in my country:
A group of bricklayers were building a building, and when they reached the fourth floor, they ran out of bricks and turned to their boss:
"Boss, we don't have any more bricks for the fifth floor!"
And the boss replied: "Really?" Okay then, let's continue with the sixth floor...

There have been no "results" in fifth gen tech because they didn't need to develop one themselves, as they are a part of F-35 project, and quite a lot of firms in Europe are part of it one way or another. Logic of your post is flawed from the start mate.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Turkey denies claims Erdoğan was misinformed on KAAN fighter jet engine - Turkish Minute

Turkey’s presidential communications office on Wednesday rejected claims that President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan was not informed about US involvement in the engine program for the country’s new KAAN fifth-generation fighter jets, calling the reports “a clear act of disinformation.”

www.turkishminute.com

This is an interesting article on the latest situation regarding KAAN engine.

The last sentence is of significant importance when you think of previous posts here about the KAAN engine consortium and Starmer’s latest Tusas/Kaan visit. Plus our top brass being bullish about the tf35000 timeline.

“The $1.18 billion project includes collaboration with BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce for engine development, according to the SSB.”

At the same time, FM Fidan’s latest statements regarding the CAATSA being lifted soon is significant and meaningful, as it will pave the way for f110 engines‘ arrival for serial production.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Hi guys.
I'm not a real aviation technology analyst. But I understand the basics like everyone else!
One thing we're sure of is that the EU has reached Level 4+ in its technological development. It hasn't reached Level 5, otherwise we would have seen the results... For some time now, they've been throwing ideas at us about developing sixth-generation aircraft. This reminds me of a joke that's long been told in my country:
A group of bricklayers were building a building, and when they reached the fourth floor, they ran out of bricks and turned to their boss:
"Boss, we don't have any more bricks for the fifth floor!"
And the boss replied: "Really?" Okay then, let's continue with the sixth floor...

If you look at the aerospace industry in Europe, you have a handful of top players that also have world class aerospace engineering expertise under their belts.

Sweden : Saab for planes and Volvo for aircraft engines. (Albeit under licence recently)
France : Dassault for planes and Safran for engines (CFM JV with GE) plus Airbus
Germany : MTU for engines and Airbus for planes.
UK : Rolls Royce for engines and BAE Ststems, Airbus UK, GKN Aerospace for planes.
Spain : ITP for engines (ex RR company) and Airbus for planes, Airbus for planes.

Almost all of these countries have been manufacturing parts for f35 and Eurofighter or Rafale in the case of France and Gripen in the case of Sweden.

Also they have been part manufacturers of GE, P&W, RR, CFM and Safran engines.

They have more experience and both individually and collectively more know how than we have. If we can be brave enough to start production of a 5th generation plane, there is nothing stopping them either. ( remember We were trying to develop TFX with SAAB at one point.)

 

[alfonsvlora]

There have been no "results" in fifth gen tech because they didn't need to develop one themselves, as they are a part of F-35 project, and quite a lot of firms in Europe are part of it one way or another. Logic of your post is flawed from the start mate.

Aman, my friend, please don't make me laugh.

Look at the countries participating in the F35 program. What contribution are they making? 0! Even their limited access to technology was granted to them by the United States, mostly to create jobs in their own countries. They can't even think of using it for their own use, let alone sharing it among themselves without US permission.

Look at the difficulties the F35 program is facing? There are hundreds.

How did the development phase of the fifth generation begin? After the fourth generation was consolidated into the 4++.

But again, I'm not a true expert in aviation technology. Perhaps you certainly are, while you so strongly oppose me. But that matters little.

In the end, I expressed my humble opinion.

 

[boredaf]

Aman, my friend, please don't make me laugh.

Look at the countries participating in the F35 program. What contribution are they making? 0! Even their limited access to technology was granted to them by the United States, mostly to create jobs in their own countries. They can't even think of using it for their own use, let alone sharing it among themselves without US permission.

Look at the difficulties the F35 program is facing? There are hundreds.

How did the development phase of the fifth generation begin? After the fourth generation was consolidated into the 4++.

But again, I'm not a true expert in aviation technology. Perhaps you certainly are, while you so strongly oppose me. But that matters little.

In the end, I expressed my humble opinion.

You don't have to be an aviation expert to understand what I'm trying to tell you mate, you just need to think about it for a second.

Europe doesn't have a 5th gen fighter because they didn't need to develop one, joining the F-35 program was the better option for them. This doesn't mean they couldn't have developed it by themselves, they have multiple companies that are experts on the field that could've produced a 5th gen plane if they were asked to. Maybe it would've been worse than F-35, maybe it would've been better, we have no way of knowing that. Because until Putin's puppet Trump came along, Europe had no reason to doubt US or their commitment to them, unlike us. Only after him, they felt the need to go on about their own way with the 6th gen.

 

[alfonsvlora]

If you look at the aerospace industry in Europe, you have a handful of top players that also have world class aerospace engineering expertise under their belts.

Sweden : Saab for planes and Volvo for aircraft engines. (Albeit under licence recently)
France : Dassault for planes and Safran for engines (CFM JV with GE) plus Airbus
Germany : MTU for engines and Airbus for planes.
UK : Rolls Royce for engines and BAE Ststems, Airbus UK, GKN Aerospace for planes.
Spain : ITP for engines (ex RR company) and Airbus for planes, Airbus for planes.

Almost all of these countries have been manufacturing parts for f35 and Eurofighter or Rafale in the case of France and Gripen in the case of Sweden.

I like your analysis! Really very thorough.

But let me tell you how all these countries you mentioned really do have the knowledge, and that's it. It's all for them! They can't reach the fifth generation. And now they're trying to combine their knowledge to reach the "sixth." "Throwing water in the air," as a Turkish proverb says.

Have you noticed that no EU country is part of a consortium with the United States for the sixth generation? Why? Because the latter (rightly) are very jealous of its technology.

And believe me, my friend, it's going to be very tough for the EU in the near future! And like the crafty old men that they are, they're slowly knocking on Turkey's door. Have you noticed? Even though they hate you with all their heart, they know full well that if they also lose their alliance with Turkey, "it will be a bitter pill for them."

 

[TR_123456]

Have you noticed that no EU country is part of a consortium with the United States for the sixth generation? Why? Because the latter (rightly) are very jealous of its technology.

You really need to get some knowledge on the geo-political situation between the US and the Western European countries,it has nothing to do with jealousy.
It is about independence from the US.

 

[alfonsvlora]

You really need to get some knowledge on the geo-political situation between the US and the Western European countries,it has nothing to do with jealousy.
It is about independence from the US.

Sorry, I was referring to the United States, which is jealous of its technology, and not the EU.

 

[Yasar_TR]

But let me tell you how all these countries you mentioned really do have the knowledge, and that's it. It's all for them! They can't reach the fifth generation.

That first sentence doesn’t make sense! I don’t understand what you mean!
How do you know they can’t reach 5th generation?
BAE Systems has been instrumental in the development of F35. Well, without BAE Systems and RR, F35B could not be flying now.
Germany is filling up the void Türkiye left behind in terms of f35 fuselage manufacturing. The Airbus factories in Germany have been manufacturing narrow body commercial jets and Typhoon fighters for Germany. MTU aerospace and RR have been the first to develop the Blisk fans and compressors and apply it to EJ200 engines used in Typhoons.
Don‘t underestimate Leonardo, Hensoldt and Thales when it comes to radar and sensor technologies.

Why do you think we partnered with BAE Systems to produce our KAAN? No matter what anybody says it was thanks to that partnership that we now have a “potentially” half operational 5th generation plane. Somebody had to show us how to fish and direct us towards the right route.

Why should any country from Europe be in a consortium for the 6th generation plane with US? Any country that is eligible to be in a so called consortium, has already formed their own consortiums to produce 6th generation planes. (OK France and Germany did not work out. Probably Spain will throw in the towel too)

Yes, probably US will be very possessive for F47, just like the F22. Even if they are not , they will try to sell it to their close allies by making maximum profit. Besides they realised that consortium route didnt really work out well for F35. Too many cooks spoiling the broth!

Yes Europe is facing hard times going forward. But as mentioned above it all happened after Trump. It was in a way a “wake up call”.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

If one thing is absolutely certain, it is that the US does not involve anyone in the true high-end sector – not even its closest allies such as the UK and Israel.
No foreign partners were involved in the F-22 value chain, and the same will be true for the NGAD project. When it comes to core national defence and technological dominance, Washington trusts no one.
Partners are allowed to participate in programmes such as the F-16, F-35 & Co. to keep them in line, but these are deliberately exportable systems – not uncompromising high-end platforms designed for absolute air supremacy.

Secondly, the US never buys weapons systems from abroad
(There are always exceptions, but they are extremely rare and very, very selective), no matter how good they are, because they know that if you use foreign systems, you are dependent. This is a core doctrine that is firmly anchored across party lines and in the military-industrial complex. They do not accept dependencies, but create them for others.

 

[TR_123456]

Secondly, the US never buys weapons systems from abroad

NSM missiles,FREMM Frigates and others.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

NSM missiles,FREMM Frigates and others.

The selective exceptions