TR Aircraft Carrier and Amphibious Ship Programs

[Anmdt]

You have answered it I think Knox class. There should be approx 10 in inventory?

I think those have been already used in somewhere else.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Not possible. Explained it in earlier pages i believe. 1st of all, the ship is an LHD, we can't add a catapult and arrest system which would penetrate the deck, down to hangar, for large planes. There could be some innovative solutions for medium size UAVs but will not be long term.

I was not talking about a catapult. Indian Hal Tejas takes off with ski lift , without catapult in 125 metres, and lands in 87 m with arresting hooks. Weight of plane etc these are all matters that need to be addressed. I know. But if there is a will there is a way. It took them years to do it. Do we have time? I respect your views. But surely if you really put your heart and mind in to it some way can be found.

 

[Anmdt]

without catapult in 125 metres, and lands in 87 m with arresting hooks

Are you sure about the numbers? These are typical take-off and landing numbers for CATOBAR.
If this is ever possible then screw F-35C and F-18s, everybody would go for Tejas.

 

[ANGMAR]

I was not talking about a catapult. Indian Hal Tejas takes off with ski lift , without catapult in 125 metres, and lands in 87 m with arresting hooks. Weight of plane etc these are all matters that need to be addressed. I know. But if there is a will there is a way. It took them years to do it. Do we have time? I respect your views. But surely if you really put your heart and mind in to it some way can be found.

really the single engine tejas can ski-jump from short decks ?
anyway it it will take 125m to take off so what left from the LHD deck !!? because the TCG Anadolu total length is about 230m so where you going to store the others fighters and etc
so i think turkish navy will focus on helicopters on the mean while

 

[Anmdt]

about 230m so where you going to store the others fighters and etc

There is hangar below the deck and elevators, for storage.
If needed entire deck can be used for take-off and landing. Don't expect an LHD to do aerial operations as frequent as an Aircraft carrier with multiple runways, the interval will be wider.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/923246613862211585

so i think turkish navy will focus on helicopters on the mean while

It was the plan since first, the order or negotiation for F35B was not held even when construction has started.
When project has started we have seen people talking how ineffective solution it was (referring to Spanish design and Turkish adaptation), we have also seen people claiming it won't even fullfill needs for amphibious operation. They have gone silent as Italy and Japan has also started to consider an upgrade to operate STOVL from their LHDs.

I've read about the tf-2000 looks more AAW destroyer than frigate to me
what is the expected date to release the first TF-2000 ?

Date is unknown, project has started as an AAW Frigate.
After TF-2000 there will be another multi-purpose frigate project (~4500 tonnes) which will have the AAW capability. The critical target is TF-2000 with long-range AESA radar and siper long range missile.

 

[Zafer]

Are you sure about the numbers? These are typical take-off and landing numbers for CATOBAR.
If this is ever possible then screw F-35C and F-18s, everybody would go for Tejas.

Tejas did this many moons ago, I believe developers of Hürjet have taken notice of this already.
There is a good chance Hürjet can be offered to prospective buyers in stead of an F35B going forward.

 

[Turko]

Phalanx + RAM which i don't think will be embargoed.

Which old ships are being retired so Phalanx can be used from those? Possibly the ships which will retire also has got their phalanxes from an older ship. (Knox class, OHPs given for spare parts etc)
DIMDEG will also need 2 Phalanx.
Sungur is not equivalent of RAM, RAM is remarkably bigger and more agile, also RF guided.
The elavated platform is large enough so if needed Gökdeniz can be integrated.


The reason why Spanish design was chosen is presence of the ski-jump. The ski-jump was also present in Request for Proposal, thus it was planned. However project itself has changed remarkably over time, the decisions were made prior to the construction in RfP. Same applies to jet-resistant deck, it hasn't been decided later but before the construction.

Not possible. Explained it in earlier pages i believe. 1st of all, the ship is an LHD, we can't add a catapult and arrest system which would penetrate the deck, down to hangar, for large planes. There could be some innovative solutions for medium size UAVs but will not be long term.



US Aircraft carriers are equipped with multiple RAM, multiple Phalanx + quad-packed ESSM yet they still "rely on" escort destroyers and frigates for a wide area defense.
The ship has sufficient protection for self defense, with an additional spot for VL point-defense (AA) missiles in the future. For the long range protection it will rely on TF-2000 (64 VLS+ Long range AESA radar) and medium range I-Class frigate (16 VLS - 64 ESSM + Smart-S II).

Again there will be RAM, there is no F35, no harriers , no ESSM . Almost vomiting . Japanese navy uses their LPDs like destroyers but we just like waving flag.

 

[Anmdt]

Tejas did this many moons ago, I believe developers of Hürjet have taken notice of this already.
There is a good chance Hürjet can be offered to prospective buyers in stead of an F35B going forward.

The STOL was told to be 200 m, and the demonstration was made without payloads, moreover they didn't disclose the amount of fuel which was carried. I didn't assume that to be for a final product but to gain experience on future variants to adapt these on their new AC. Moreover Tejas had done landing with arrest cables and gears.
I have never had concern on take off but the landing. We can get other STOL capable jets and probably these can take off from TCG Anadolu.
How and where to attach arrest cables and gears on Anadolu? If these are attached then the ship will loose its multi-role capability, a portion of hangar would have been dedicated for landing systems, modification of structure to handle loads, etc. These are all major modifications, not tiny. It will go farther from an LHD towards an AC without being an AC truly.
The ship is primarily intended for LHD roles. And if needed a second larger ship can have a more dedicated design for AC roles. But is it really needed while we are lacking an AAW platform?

 

[Zafer]

The STOL was told to be 200 m, and the demonstration was made without payloads, moreover they didn't disclose the amount of fuel which was carried. I didn't assume that to be for a final product but to gain experience on future variants to adapt these on their new AC. Moreover Tejas had done landing with arrest cables and gears.
I have never had concern on take off but the landing. We can get other STOL capable jets and probably these can take off from TCG Anadolu.
How and where to attach arrest cables and gears on Anadolu? If these are attached then the ship will loose its multi-role capability, a portion of hangar would have been dedicated for landing systems, modification of structure to handle loads, etc. These are all major modifications, not tiny. It will go farther from an LHD towards an AC without being an AC truly.
The ship is primarily intended for LHD roles. And if needed a second larger ship can have a more dedicated design for AC roles. But is it really needed while we are lacking an AAW platform?

We can do even better. We can fit our existing LHDs to operate light aircraft from.
Full size Aircraft Carriers should be made for our full size aircraft the MMU(TFX).

 

[AzeriTank]

I wish Mius could use 2 ai-25 engine to be able to take of from Anadolu... or i wish at least Akinji with 2x750 hp engine could take of..

 

[Anmdt]

We can do even better. We can fit our existing LHDs to operate light aircraft from.
Full size Aircraft Carriers should be made for our full size aircraft the MMU(TFX).

Sacrificing the hangar+elevators and carrying all aircrafts on the deck along with helicopters? Indeed we can do this. then we will have an LPD without any hangar, not an LHD with a dedicated hangar which you can maintain or prepare aircraft even in harsh weathers.
As if it is easy to modify a deck on an existing platform, especially when it is considered the strength deck.
LHD-LPDs should be left as is, and trained best for amphibious operations if TN is ever going to acquire an aircraft carrier in future.
If there won't an AC, a sensible solution should be introduced to fill the gap of F-35B at least payload-wise.

 

[Zafer]

Sacrificing the hangar+elevators and carrying all aircrafts on the deck along with helicopters? Indeed we can do this. then we will have an LPD without any hangar, not an LHD with a dedicated hangar which you can maintain or prepare aircraft even in harsh weathers.
As if it is easy to modify a deck on an existing platform, especially when it is considered the strength deck.

We won't stop making it because it is hard to make.
We don't need to keep many fighter planes on the ship. Even 4 planes can give the punch we need for most operations we can hope to make from this ship. And we will most likely have the second one, we can operate them together if need be.

 

[Anmdt]

We won't stop making it because it is hard to make.
We don't need to keep many fighter planes on the ship. Even 4 planes can give the punch we need for most operations we can hope to make from this ship. And we will most likely have the second one, we can operate them together if need be.

An arrest wire would require stern to be modified, removal of the elevator on stern side, compromising hangar area by %30-40 on the stern side for installation of the gears and moreover a huge hole on the strength deck at the stern side.
-Which will affect the weight balance of the ship,
-Which will affect strength of the ship, a major part of strength is provided by the intact deck
-Which will leave the ship only with a single and smaller elevator on the front side.
-Entire helo-aircraft operation will be bound to capacity of a single elevator and aircraft will be pulled all the way back for a take-off and occupy the runway for minutes.
-Hangar area will be reduced, number of helo and aircrafts will reduce dramatically.
-The weapon systems on stern will have to be relocated thus again will consume spaces on deck and the intact self-defense which is covering the ship 360 degrees probably will be lost.

These are not sensible to apply just to have a capability on paper, what we need is true capability we are not like some other armies which makes some stuff for the showcase.

Such a modification on an existing ship should be the last solution, to be appointed in case of true necessity.
Meanwhile, it makes more sense to have a dedicated light AC, which also Navy considers.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Are you sure about the numbers? These are typical take-off and landing numbers for CATOBAR.
If this is ever possible then screw F-35C and F-18s, everybody would go for Tejas.

Yes quite sure. It’s landing length allowance is around 95 metres. It manages to stop in 87m.
quote:
It took just 87 metres for the jet to come to full halt during the test at the Goa's Shore-Based Test Facility. This was what the Tejas-N needed to replicate out at sea when it landed on the deck of INS Vikramaditya.
unquote.

Naval Tejas Prototype Is First Home-Made Jet To Land On Aircraft Carrier

A prototype of the naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas became the first Indian-made fighter jet to land on the deck of an aircraft carrier, sources have said. The prototype successfully landed on the deck of India's only operational aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, marking a...

www.ndtv.com

Naval LCA at striking distance for deck operations from INS Vikramaditya

The Indian Navy is currently studying all the data before giving the go-ahead to the team to undertake deck landing on the INS Vikramaditya..Naval Light Combat Aircraft. NLCA. INS Vikramaditya. striking distance

www.onmanorama.com

Take off start position is on the left hand side opposite the small tower on the right. It is a triangular recess. And the plane is positioned in the middle of that recess. The length of runway from that position is about 125 m. There are apparently holding brakes. When the engines are at close to full Rev these brakes are released. This and the rest is computer controlled. Once plane takes off control is released back to pilot.

 

[Glass🚬]

Turkish Navy should get these.

 

[Anmdt]

It took just 87 metres for the jet to come to full halt during the test at the Goa's Shore-Based Test Facility. This was what the Tejas-N needed to replicate out at sea when it landed on the deck of INS Vikramaditya.
unquote.

*with an arrest wire. as seen in the video:

Take off start position is on the left hand side opposite the small tower on the right. It is a triangular recess. And the plane is positioned in the middle of that recess. The length of runway from that position is about 125 m. There are apparently holding brakes. When the engines are at close to full Rev these brakes are released. This and the rest is computer controlled. Once plane takes off control is released back to pilot.

To me that part from tip of runway to end of ski-jump seems to be 160+ meters nearing. Which was also stated in land tests, tejas to have 200 meters to take off.

the video from actual take off. The point is far from mid of the hull when normalized.

However it is still without payload and unknown amount of fuel. I dont consider this as a true capability but a demonstrator, experience towards next variant of the aircraft.

 

[Zafer]

An arrest wire would require stern to be modified, removal of the elevator on stern side, compromising hangar area by %30-40 on the stern side for installation of the gears and moreover a huge hole on the strength deck at the stern side.
-Which will affect the weight balance of the ship,
-Which will affect strength of the ship, a major part of strength is provided by the intact deck
-Which will leave the ship only with a single and smaller elevator on the front side.
-Entire helo-aircraft operation will be bound to capacity of a single elevator and aircraft will be pulled all the way back for a take-off and occupy the runway for minutes.
-Hangar area will be reduced, number of helo and aircrafts will reduce dramatically.
-The weapon systems on stern will have to be relocated thus again will consume spaces on deck and the intact self-defense which is covering the ship 360 degrees probably will be lost.

These are not sensible to apply just to have a capability on paper, what we need is true capability we are not like some other armies which makes some stuff for the showcase.

Such a modification on an existing ship should be the last solution, to be appointed in case of true necessity.
Meanwhile, it makes more sense to have a dedicated light AC, which also Navy considers.

There must be engineers somewhere that can come up with good solutions to all the problems that will be thrown at them. You can probably make additions to the sides of the ship to accommodate the machinery that will operate the cable. Or maybe you can place mobile attachments on the deck that will latch themselves on the board during operation and move out of the way when not in use.

 

[Yasar_TR]

*with an arrest wire. as seen in the video:

To me that part from tip of runway to end of ski-jump seems to be 160+ meters nearing. Which was also stated in land tests, tejas to have 200 meters to take off.

the video from actual take off. The point is far from mid of the hull when normalized.

However it is still without payload and unknown amount of fuel. I dont consider this as a true capability but a demonstrator, experience towards next variant of the aircraft.

You are correct. They did an empty land to air ski jump trial. It managed it in 125 metres. The length of that runway is more than 125 when you measure against complete length of 270m.
They have since then decided to go for a twin engined craft with f414 engines due to weight restrictions for the Hal Tejas. Also if one engine malfunctions, they want the plane to be able to land.
Hurjet with TVC ej200 or f414 engine may just about do it on TCG Anadolu. An engineer for aircraft operations from carriers could answer it better. But with all the if’s and reservations, 6-8 harriers is a better bet.

 

[Turko]

Without fighters the LPD needs air defence system at least but the ship wasn't even planned with ESSMs. I wish they will have Siper-Naval to cover areal air defence.
Secondly unmanned helis with SONOUBOYs and torpedos should be used.

 

[Anmdt]

You are correct. They did an empty land to air ski jump trial. It managed it in 125 metres. The length of that runway is more than 125 when you measure against complete length of 270m.
They have since then decided to go for a twin engined craft with f414 engines due to weight restrictions for the Hal Tejas. Also if one engine malfunctions, they want the plane to be able to land.
Hurjet with TVC ej200 or f414 engine may just about do it on TCG Anadolu. An engineer for aircraft operations from carriers could answer it better. But with all the if’s and reservations, 6-8 harriers is a better bet.

It can take off by reducing payload and fuel, for sure.
But a navalized hurjet would be available by 2030+. In my opinion if needed, we can also plan a larger variant of Anadolu and commission it by hurjet-N being avaliable.