India India - France Relations

[crixus]

France has reportedly proposed to completely transfer the assembly line of Panther helicopters, as well as 70% of that of Rafale fighters to India. The offer is in line with PM Modi’s “Make in India” initiative to strengthen the country’s manufacturing capacity through technology transfer, Hindustan Times reported.



The Airbus AS565 Panther is the military version of the Eurocopter AS365 Dauphin multi-purpose twin-engine helicopter. The all-weather medium-size helicopter has been designed to operate from ship decks, offshore locations and land sites.

Panther helicopter

Helicopters can perform a wide range of military roles, including combat assault, fire support, anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, search and rescue, and medical evacuation ( MEDEVAC).

Paris’s offer to make helicopters in India is working extremely well with the Indian government, which was looking to procure medium helicopters for the Indian Navy.

The offers were made during the series of conversations between Indian leaders and Emmanuel Bonne, diplomatic adviser to French President Emmanuel Macron who was in the country for the 34th India-France Strategic Dialogue this week. The strategic dialogue was chaired by Indian national security adviser Ajit Doval and Bonne.

Additionally, in light of the deal to bring in 70% of the Rafale fighter assembly line, including local supplier development, officials said there is a real possibility that New Delhi, which has a contract for 36 fighters, ends up buying more in the future, according to the HT report.

Rafale fighter plane

The 4+ generation Dassault Rafale is a twin-engine, canard-delta wing multirole combat aircraft, equipped with a wide range of weapons. Fighters can perform air supremacy, interdiction, aerial reconnaissance, ground support, deep attack, anti-ship attack, and nuclear deterrence missions.

Omni-Role fighters are said to help India secure its borders which have seen skirmishes over the past year.

Senior officials told the daily that New Delhi has made a decision to review Paris’s offer for the Airbus 330 multi-role transport tankers on lease.

The country also clarified that French defense technologies shared with the Indian military should not be ceded to its adversaries, including its neighbor Pakistan.

France has reportedly assured it will comply with the request and has also informed India of the exhaustion of its military ties with Pakistan, which reached a new low after Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan slammed President Macron for his views on Islam.

Therefore, it is clear that Paris will no longer supply or modernize French arms platforms or ammunition with Pakistan. This will include repairs to the Augusta submarines as well as the Mirage III / V fighters.

France proposes to move its Rafale Fighter & Panther Chopper assembly lines to India – Report – Latest news on Asia, Middle East, EurAsian and India | FR24 News English

www.fr24news.com

 

[Paro]

The french have been consulting IN on nuclear submarine design lately, earlier Russians were the primary players in this segment. Most probably related to SSN.

 

[crixus]

The french have been consulting IN on nuclear submarine design lately, earlier Russians were the primary players in this segment. Most probably related to SSN.

Yes most probably , on the lines of Barracuda

Suffren-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nilgiri]

An interesting strategic partnership to watch more this decade @Vergennes

 

[crixus]

An interesting strategic partnership to watch more this decade @Vergennes

IAF + Navy can easily order more than 100 Rafales .... If France can help in LCA Mark2, that will give the absolute edge on tier2 aircraft too, which we can manufacture in numbers.

We can easily sacrifice F-18s with this technical edge for tier 2 aircrafts

 

[Nilgiri]

IAF + Navy can easily order more than 100 Rafales .... If France can help in LCA Mark2, that will give the absolute edge on tier2 aircraft too, which we can manufacture in numbers.

We can easily sacrifice F-18s with this technical edge for tier 2 aircrafts

Its a bold offer and I doubt Biden admin will be able to match it or if they are even willing to try.

France made similar bold offer for Mirage 2000 production line, but Indian govt was not prescient or fiscally stable enough back then. Not the case now, it will be interesting time period that follows now.

 

[crixus]

Its a bold offer and I doubt Biden admin will be able to match it or if they are even willing to try.

France made similar bold offer for Mirage 2000 production line, but Indian govt was not prescient or fiscally stable enough back then. Not the case now, it will be interesting time period that follows now.

Vajpayee does not have the balls to decide ...... believe me that Mirage 2000 offer is still haunting us. Just imagine if we have 150 mirage 2000-9 planes.

Last wish is please don't give the manufacturing partnership to HAL , either L&T or TATA

 

[Nilgiri]

Vajpayee does not have the balls to decide ...... believe me that Mirage 2000 offer is still haunting us. Just imagine if we have 150 mirage 2000-9 planes.

Last wish is please don't give the manufacturing partnership to HAL , either L&T or TATA

Yes even more so given news like this:

First Upgraded Mirage 2000D Fighter Delivered | AIN

The first of 55 modified Mirage 2000D multi-role fighters will now undergo tests, working towards a service entry in 2022.

www.ainonline.com

To make up the numbers, it was decided to retain 55 Mirage 2000Ds and to equip them for an operational life until at least 2030.

We could have had adequate to good squadron strength being upgraded all way to 2030+ etc at far cheaper cost to exchequer.

It is really costing us now in both what we got to cough up, make do with same set of babu-twerps and also depleted squadron strength in this window that we can ill-afford too (given Indian military crucial capabiliy should ramp/index w.r.t GDP ramp as a minimum - rather than face reversals).

@Vergennes @Kartal1 @anmdt @Madokafc @#comcom @Cabatli_53 @Webslave @T-123456 @Fuzuli NL

 

[Madokafc]

Yes even more so given news like this:

First Upgraded Mirage 2000D Fighter Delivered | AIN

The first of 55 modified Mirage 2000D multi-role fighters will now undergo tests, working towards a service entry in 2022.

www.ainonline.com

To make up the numbers, it was decided to retain 55 Mirage 2000Ds and to equip them for an operational life until at least 2030.

We could have had adequate to good squadron strength being upgraded all way to 2030+ etc at far cheaper cost to exchequer.

It is really costing us now in both what we got to cough up, make do with same set of babu-twerps and also depleted squadron strength in this window that we can ill-afford too (given Indian military crucial capabiliy should ramp/index w.r.t GDP ramp as a minimum - rather than face reversals).

@Vergennes @Kartal1 @anmdt @Madokafc @#comcom @Cabatli_53 @Webslave @T-123456 @Fuzuli NL

Looking at article above it is suffice to say, they had giving euthanasia injection shot for Pakistan Mirage and Agosta fleets

 

[crixus]

Looking at article above it is suffice to say, they had giving euthanasia injection shot for Pakistan Mirage and Agosta fleets

The statements made by Pakistani top leadership against French president are suffice for euthasia

 

[Zapper]

IAF + Navy can easily order more than 100 Rafales .... If France can help in LCA Mark2, that will give the absolute edge on tier2 aircraft too, which we can manufacture in numbers.

We can easily sacrifice F-18s with this technical edge for tier 2 aircrafts

There's not much help required for the LCA Mk-2 or the MWF since it's essentially a larger version of the Tejas...larger airframe, bigger engine, more hardpoints, replacing Israeli radar, EW suite and avionics with indigenous ones

What we need help with is Kaveri engine and potential collaboration for AMCA to make it a potent 5th gen fighter and defend against anything pakistanis or chinese could field

 

[crixus]

There's not much help required for the LCA Mk-2 or the MWF since it's essentially a larger version of the Tejas...larger airframe, bigger engine, more hardpoints, replacing Israeli radar, EW suite and avionics with indigenous ones

What we need help with is Kaveri engine and potential collaboration for AMCA to make it a potent 5th gen fighter and defend against anything pakistanis or chinese could field

just one point to add, with French help we can integrate Meteor with LCA and a small LCA patrolling the Indian air space with Meteors, is a formidable challenge for anything which Pakistan and China will throw at us . The french sensors in LCA Mark 2 will make it in league of Mirage

 

[Zapper]

just one point to add, with French help we can integrate Meteor with LCA and a small LCA patrolling the Indian air space with Meteors, is a formidable challenge for anything which Pakistan and China will throw at us . The french sensors in LCA Mark 2 will make it in league of Mirage

I don't see why we need Meteors on the Tejas. The meteor has a range of 120km (NEZ 60km best in class) while Astra Mk-1 with 110km and Astra Mk-2 with 160km. Mk-1 has already been inducted by IAF while Mk-2 is in trails. We can expect longer and faster versions of Astra in the near future.

Post Balakot, IAF infact approached MBDA for Meteor integration on other platforms but they said it could only be done if the radar is of European origin. Even if MBDA fixes it somehow, that would mean escalated costs (Meteor costs 4 times that of Astra) along with spending of valuable forex when we could induct an almost comparable indigenous missile for lesser cost paving the for future versions

Secondly, China claims their PL-15 has a range in excess of 300km and the JF-17 Blk-III is reportedly getting it.

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...ssile-on-rafale-fighter-to-counter-china.html

 

[Gary]

I don't see why we need Meteors on the Tejas. The meteor has a range of 120km (NEZ 60km best in class) while Astra Mk-1 with 110km and Astra Mk-2 with 160km. Mk-1 has already been inducted by IAF while Mk-2 is in trails. We can expect longer and faster versions of Astra in the near future.

Post Balakot, IAF infact approached MBDA for Meteor integration on other platforms but they said it could only be done if the radar is of European origin. Even if MBDA fixes it somehow, that would mean escalated costs (Meteor costs 4 times that of Astra) along with spending of valuable forex when we could induct an almost comparable indigenous missile for lesser cost paving the for future versions

Secondly, China claims their PL-15 has a range in excess of 300km and the JF-17 Blk-III is reportedly getting it.

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...ssile-on-rafale-fighter-to-counter-china.html

Do you have any answer already to the PL-15s ?

 

[crixus]

I don't see why we need Meteors on the Tejas. The meteor has a range of 120km (NEZ 60km best in class) while Astra Mk-1 with 110km and Astra Mk-2 with 160km. Mk-1 has already been inducted by IAF while Mk-2 is in trails. We can expect longer and faster versions of Astra in the near future.

Post Balakot, IAF infact approached MBDA for Meteor integration on other platforms but they said it could only be done if the radar is of European origin. Even if MBDA fixes it somehow, that would mean escalated costs (Meteor costs 4 times that of Astra) along with spending of valuable forex when we could induct an almost comparable indigenous missile for lesser cost paving the for future versions

Secondly, China claims their PL-15 has a range in excess of 300km and the JF-17 Blk-III is reportedly getting it.

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...ssile-on-rafale-fighter-to-counter-china.html

The only reason I said the integration of Meteor, is to have some commonality between the workhorse and frontline fighters, in the defensive role over Indian airspace, they can easily neutralize the threat posed by eastern and western enemies. Yes, the price factor is there but integration does not mean you have to equip every aircraft with it. No need to say Meteor has a psychological impact on the opposite side too
Regarding European radar condition, they have already integrated it with F-35 which has American radar. China can claim whatever they want, and this made in China plane with a Russian engine has its own limitations.

 

[Zapper]

Do you have any answer already to the PL-15s ?

The PL-15 is unproven and bleeds energy at it's terminal phase...there's a high possibility to dodge with the right evasive maneuvers if their claims are to be trusted. Also, I doubt the current Chinese AESA radars would be able to effectively track targets in excess of 300km. Even the upcoming US AIM-240 ER-BVRAAM has a range of 240km which shows that range is not what's important but NEZ is...

"
The Meteor missile's USP is not its range, but its unique propulsion system. The Phoenix, R-33 and AMRAAM all have rocket engines. In such air-to-air missiles, the rocket engine delivers a uniform amount of thrust over certain duration of flight after which the motor burns out. The missile then 'coasts', or glides at high speed, to its target, which it tracks through radar. US defence website The Drive explains the longer the distance a rocket-powered missile has to travel to its target, "the less energy the missile will have for its critical terminal phase of flight, and that is not a good thing". As an air-to-air missile approaches, a target aircraft will engage in steep manoeuvring and deploy countermeasures to confuse the incoming missile.

Interestingly, Su-30MKI fighters of the Indian Air Force were able to dodge the AMRAAM missiles fired by Pakistan’s F-16s last February.

The Meteor missile has a miniature supersonic jet engine, called a ramjet. Explaining the aerodynamic advantage of the Meteor, The Drive notes, "Instead of burning off all its fuel right after launch, it [Meteor] can throttle its engine back during cruise, thus saving fuel. As it approaches its target it can throttle up, eventually making its terminal attack while at its highest possible energy state, around mach 4.5, even when fired over long ranges." This helps the Meteor missile engage rapidly manoeuvring targets like China's Su-30 and J-11 jets
"

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...ssile-on-rafale-fighter-to-counter-china.html

 

[Zapper]

The only reason I said the integration of Meteor, is to have some commonality between the workhorse and frontline fighters, in the defensive role over Indian airspace, they can easily neutralize the threat posed by eastern and western enemies. Yes, the price factor is there but integration does not mean you have to equip every aircraft with it. No need to say Meteor has a psychological impact on the opposite side too
Regarding European radar condition, they have already integrated it with F-35 which has American radar. China can claim whatever they want, and this made in China plane with a Russian engine has its own limitations.

I don't see a reason for commonality when the systems we're inducting are indigenous and that should be the way forward. I'd rather have Astra integrated on all our platforms over Meteor or any other foreign missile. Meteors equipped on the Rafales will create the same psychological impact. Adding em onto Tejas will not gain any more significance. As mentioned, it isn't cost effective either.

What we need is LCA in numbers at the moment rather than banking on integration of western BVRAAMs which would also delay the whole project. DRDO should ensure the upcoming Astra Mk-2 with 160km range also has a NEZ comparable to the Meteor

 

[Madokafc]

Do you have any answer already to the PL-15s ?

I doubt their claims, even then the critical points like data feed and sensors is another point to be thought to ensure their effectiveness on battlefield

 

[Nilgiri]

Secondly, China claims their PL-15 has a range in excess of 300km and the JF-17 Blk-III is reportedly getting it.

Do you have any answer already to the PL-15s ?

I doubt their claims, even then the critical points like data feed and sensors is another point to be thought to ensure their effectiveness on battlefield

Yes as Zapper reply already showed, its some weird "maxed out" number they are using for attempted psy-ops (any conversant military circle would not buy it). Both sides of cold war were also quite notorious for doing that too from time to time.

Its apples and oranges when comparing with other (proven + inducted) BVR systems this way...as they are generally quoting single system vs target stand-off range.

Maxed out range from some super high altitude and then use AWACS or something to datalink close to sea level for terminal etc, those are strictly classified for every system out there right now....given they only have some relevance in first place.

There is no stochiometric break (of solid fuel chemical bonds) that China has magically unlocked within a 4 metre tube length of it to achieve some super stand-off range.

 

[Nilgiri]

Defense World

View News at Defense World

www.defenseworld.net

The Indian and French Rafales will be in action together for the first time during bilateral Desert Knight-21 air exercises starting Wednesday.

In a statement today, the Indian Defence Ministry said, “The exercise is unique as it includes fielding of Rafale aircraft by both sides and is indicative of the growing interaction between the two premier Air Forces.”

The war games will be held at Air Force Station Jodhpur from 20 to 24 January.

French side will participate with Rafale, Airbus A-330 Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT), A-400M Tactical Transport aircraft and approximately 175 personnel. The Indian Air Force (IAF) aircraft participating in the exercise will include Mirage 2000, Su-30 MKI, Rafale, IL-78 Flight Refuelling Aircraft, AWACS and AEW&C aircraft.

As part of Indo-French defence cooperation, Indian Air Force and French Air and Space Force have held six editions of Air Exercises named 'Garuda', the latest being in 2019 at Air Force Base Mont-de-Marsan, France. As measures to further the existing cooperation, the two forces have been gainfully utilising available opportunities to conduct ‘hop-exercises.’

The French Air and Space Force (Armée de l'Air et de l'Espace) deployment while ferrying to Australia for Ex Pitchblack in 2018 was hosted by IAF at Air Force Stations Agra and Gwalior for exercise with fighters and MRTT aircraft.

Presently, the French detachment for Ex Desert Knight-21 is deployed in Asia as part of their 'Skyros Deployment' and will ferry in forces to Air Force Station Jodhpur.

Eight Rafales have been delivered to the IAF out of a total of 36 that will form two squadrons. By 2023, both squadrons each comprising 18 jets, will be ready.

IAF Rafales will make their debut at the Republic Day parade on January 26. The omni-role jet will undertake the ‘Vertical Charlie” maneuver.

"The flypast will culminate with a single Rafale aircraft carrying out a 'Vertical Charlie' formation," IAF spokesperson Wing Commander Indranil Nandi said at a press conference in Delhi on Monday.

The 'Vertical Charlie' formation is when an aircraft flies at low altitude, pulls up vertically and conducts rolls before stabilising at higher altitude.

@Vergennes