TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Yasar_TR]

It meams either that you are near the solution domesticaly solved or that someome is placing disinformation deliberately about current status of it, dont see other logic in these negotiation, if the news are true

I remember reading somewhere how a 90000dollar JDAM we were trying to buy had become 25000dollars overnight, when we produced our HGK bomb for 27000dollars, to stop us producing it.
This is similar! Now that Batu engine is coming to life and soon there may even be a transmission to go with it, Gerry is trying to win back old customer. Of course until next time we use their engine or transmission in Northern Syria.

 

[Ryder]

I remember reading somewhere how a 90000dollar JDAM we were trying to buy had become 25000dollars overnight, when we produced our HGK bomb for 27000dollars, to stop us producing it.
This is similar! Now that Batu engine is coming to life and soon there may even be a transmission to go with it, Gerry is trying to win back old customer. Of course until next time we use their engine or transmission in Northern Syria.

Honestly too little and too late.

Germans and the Europeans have all but thrown their goodwill out.

Cooperation then backstabbed with an embargo. What is the point in cooperating in defence with them especially the Germans??

People should not bring out that human rights bullshit. These are weapons of war for goodness sake not flowers and chocolates.

 

[neosinan]

I realized This hasnt shared in this Topis So It should be

Altay local engine BATU's first prototype is gonna be ignite in 2021.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348569203423502337

Hopefully, We dont need to talk about German Engine anymore.

 

[Ghost soldier]

And why the German engine was chosen in the first place ?

 

[Ryder]

And why the German engine was chosen in the first place ?

Mtu engines are considered one of the best engines for tanks.

I remember on pdf that the Turkish army once experimented on Ukrainian engines this was like in the late 90s to early 2000s. I hope members here can talk about it.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Mtu engines are considered one of the best engines for tanks.

I remember on pdf that the Turkish army once experimented on Ukrainian engines this was like in the late 90s to early 2000s. I hope members here can talk about it.

For a given size and power level, there is no other tank engine in the world that can come close to a German MTU engine. Just check the size and compactness and see if there is another engine that develops 1500hp and 4500Nm torque with same fuel usage and dependability.
South Korean Doosan and Turkish Batu engines are actually copies of the MTU engine in more ways than one!

 

[BordoEnes]

I think the initial batch should be German MTU engine and transmission for the simple reason that it will take time for our BATU powerpack to mature properly. We are in desperate need for new additions of both APC's and Tanks. It still hurts to see our soldiers use plain M60's and M48's.

 

[Huelague]

Why not?
Lets use MTU for the first batch of 250 units. That give us enough time to develop our own ones, plus we can take the Altay in our inventory which we need urgently.

 

[mulj]

What is annual plan of production once all is set up and what is the future of existing tanks that they are absolute?

 

[Orkunhun]

For obvious reasons FR Germany is not willing to supply neither MTU engines nor ZF transmissions. Even if they give for 250 tanks it will be allways with restrictions for exports and for own use.
Experiences of South Koreans showed that it is very difficult to produce reliable engines and transmissions comperable to German ones. Even with the Korean expertise which is much higher than ours.
Therefore we have to be open to alternative powerpacks. Why don't we opt for hybrid powerpacks. Turkey is indegenously able to produce reliable diesel engines which can be used for generators to recharge batteries. Suitable Electric Motors are also possible to be produced and by use of those we can eliminate the use of complex transmissions.
It is wiser to invest in new technologies than trying to reach the level of the countries with 120 years experience.

 

[Huelague]

What is annual plan of production once all is set up and what is the future of existing tanks that they are absolute?

Thats nonsense. The question about importance of tanks. They are needed in all kind of infantry engagements. Now, the world has seen the power and importance of UAV and the weakness of there detection and defense. Means, in the following years we will see many counter system to defeat UAVs. Which means we will not use the same “Drone War” tactics again so easy. Infantry or tank units will be protected by “drone killers” in the future.

 

[mulj]

Thats nonsense. The question about importance of tanks. They are needed in all kind of infantry engagements. Now, the world has seen the power and importance of UAV and the weakness of there detection and defense. Means, in the following years we will see many counter system to defeat UAVs. Which means we will not use the same “Drone War” tactics again so easy. Infantry or tank units will be protected by “drone killers” in the future.

I meant on huge m61 sabra/aselsan packs fleet, even modernized they are weak mbt nower days, it is reasonable to asume that they will be first replaced with Altay. So, question remains.

 

[what]

On the topic of German engines a small prediction: next German government will most likely involve the Green party, so forget it. Not going to happen.

 

[Huelague]

On the topic of German engines a small prediction: next German government will most likely involve the Green party, so forget it. Not going to happen.

In September.

 

[Yasar_TR]

For obvious reasons FR Germany is not willing to supply either MTU engines nor ZF transmissions. Even if they give for 250 tanks it will be allways with restrictions for exports and for own use.
Experiences of South Koreans showed that it is very difficult to produce reliable engines and transmissions comperable to German ones. Even with the Korean expertise which is much higher than ours.
Therefore we have to be open to alternative powerpacks. Why don't we opt for hybrid powerpacks. Turkey is indegenously able to produce reliable diesel engines which can be used for generators to recharge batteries. Suitable Electric Motors are also possible to be produced and by use of those we can eliminate the use of complex transmissions.
It is wiser to invest in new technologies than trying to reach the level of the countries with 120 years experience.

Sn Orkunhun,
Just check HSL-700 Aselsan/Tulomsas engine. You have your answer there. That hybrid electro Diesel engine develops 940 HP combined with Li-Ion battery pack. Drives a 68 ton locomotive at 80km/hr. Make it 50% more powerful and you have a winner.

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/HSL700_Hybrid_Shunting_Locomotive_1776.pdf

 

[Orkunhun]

Sn Orkunhun,
Just check HSL-700 Aselsan/Tulomsas engine. You have your answer there. That hybrid electro Diesel engine develops 940 HP combined with Li-Ion battery pack. Drives a 68 ton locomotive at 80km/hr. Make it 50% more powerful and you have a winner.

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/HSL700_Hybrid_Shunting_Locomotive_1776.pdf

Such a hybrid technology for ALTAY or other vehicles will also have following advantages:

1-Using electrical movement will provide following tactical advantages.
a)Quiter operation compared to other means of power.
b)Less heat footprint. Therefore increased stealthiness against infrared sensors of missile seekers.

2-Less moving parts.
a)Easier to produce.
b)Less parts to malfunction.
c)Higher combat readiness.

3-Maximum local contribution in production:
a) Our limited national resources will remain in the country.
b) Peripherial industries will evolve.
c) Logistics will be better.
d) Inventory management will be easier.
e) Further development and upgrade according to feedbacks will be more doable.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Such a hybrid technology for ALTAY or other vehicles will also have following advantages:

1-Using electrical movement will provide following tactical advantages.
a)Quiter operation compared to other means of power.
b)Less heat footprint. Therefore increased stealthiness against infrared sensors of missile seekers.

2-Less moving parts.
a)Easier to produce.
b)Less parts to malfunction.
c)Higher combat readiness.

3-Maximum local contribution in production:
a) Our limited national resources will remain in the country.
b) Peripherial industries will evolve.
c) Logistics will be better.
d) Inventory management will be easier.
e) Further development and upgrade according to feedbacks will be more duable.

I would like to add about the performance of DC powered engines; Electric motors have maximum torque even at 0 , that is zero, revolutions.
The driving force of an electric motor is torque - not horsepower. The torque is the twisting force that makes the motor running and the torque is active from 0% to 100% operating speed. Note! - the full torque from zero speed is a major advantage for electric vehicles.
MTU power pack produces 4500 Nm torque At 2000 revolutions.Electric motor of same power output develops 5350 Nm torque from zero to max revolutions.
so when it comes to quick acceleration and getting the tank out of a sticky situation, you can not beat an electric engine.

 

[Timur]

we should not forget that germany is the country thad didnt wanted to sell us 1000 tanks

I would like to add about the performance of DC powered engines; Electric motors have maximum torque even at 0 , that is zero, revolutions.
The driving force of an electric motor is torque - not horsepower. The torque is the twisting force that makes the motor running and the torque is active from 0% to 100% operating speed. Note! - the full torque from zero speed is a major advantage for electric vehicles.
MTU power pack produces 4500 Nm torque At 2000 revolutions.Electric motor of same power output develops 5350 Nm torque from zero to max revolutions.
so when it comes to quick acceleration and getting the tank out of a sticky situation, you can not beat an electric engine.

actually to move a 65 ton tank + batteries stealth like the people say here you need extreem much of batteries.. they need to be stored somewhere, they can currently easily burn, they will discharge fast because of the weight we are talking of the weight of >30 cars that needs to be moved from place..

the current battery technology has serious flaws the coming up next generations will be the game changer with more capacity faster charging and lessers security risks.. but lithium batteries I dont think they are a good choice

http://

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/DDp-Te-ceqsbF1JrTRJyl0jX1kjWb6q8MRLdelQp8C06kilUJiTmnaCRVoRUTpppzb-0XVZixjA672i3omCTFEfZw9gxyQCVEJsO

so do we need 30 of these batteries? or lets be optimistic 5?

 

[Yasar_TR]

we should not forget that germany is the country thad didnt wanted to sell us 1000 tanks


actually to move a 65 ton tank + batteries stealth like the people say here you need extreem much of batteries.. they need to be stored somewhere, they can currently easily burn, they will discharge fast because of the weight we are talking of the weight of >30 cars that needs to be moved from place..

the current battery technology has serious flaws the coming up next generations will be the game changer with more capacity faster charging and lessers security risks.. but lithium batteries I dont think they are a good choice

http://

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/DDp-Te-ceqsbF1JrTRJyl0jX1kjWb6q8MRLdelQp8C06kilUJiTmnaCRVoRUTpppzb-0XVZixjA672i3omCTFEfZw9gxyQCVEJsO

so do we need 30 of these batteries? or lets be optimistic 5?

This is an all electric car you are showing. We are talking about electro-diesel hybrid. The power needed for electric drive-train is around 800-900hp. We are talking about a HYBRID engine!
Just look at Tesla S specifications. All electric. 825 HP. Powered by a Li-Ion battery pack. Li-Ion are the best type for this job. They used to have a tendency to explode especially in the vicinity of water. Not any more. They are used in submarines now (Japanese Shoryu class).
The diesel engine produces electricity and drives the wheels direct; Transmissionless. At the same time charges the batteries that also drive the wheels direct. You have a choice to use electric only (for quiet running), dual mode (full power) or diesel-electric only.
Batteries don’t have to be kept all in one place they can be placed anywhere that is convenient. There is no transmission , which actually takes more space than engine itself. So there is space saved. Electric motors are where the traction wheels are. So they are not a problem.
Honestly I can not see anything wrong with this system , apart from people who try to be an obstacle in front of new development. And men that will use these electro-diesel tanks that will complain because it is not what they are used to.
I wonder what the SSB is thinking about the new Batu engine. I would not be surprised if they transformed it in to a hybrid electro-diesel!

 

[Orkunhun]

This is an all electric car you are showing. We are talking about electro-diesel hybrid. The power needed for electric drive-train is around 800-900hp. We are talking about a HYBRID engine!
Just look at Tesla S specifications. All electric. 825 HP. Powered by a Li-Ion battery pack. Li-Ion are the best type for this job. They used to have a tendency to explode especially in the vicinity of water. Not any more. They are used in submarines now (Japanese Shoryu class).
The diesel engine produces electricity and drives the wheels direct; Transmissionless. At the same time charges the batteries that also drive the wheels direct. You have a choice to use electric only (for quiet running), dual mode (full power) or diesel-electric only.
Batteries don’t have to be kept all in one place they can be placed anywhere that is convenient. There is no transmission , which actually takes more space than engine itself. So there is space saved. Electric motors are where the traction wheels are. So they are not a problem.
Honestly I can not see anything wrong with this system , apart from people who try to be an obstacle in front of new development. And men that will use these electro-diesel tanks that will complain because it is not what they are used to.
I wonder what the SSB is thinking about the new Batu engine. I would not be surprised if they transformed it in to a hybrid electro-diesel!

MTU engine MTU MT 883 Ka501 used in prototype ALTAY tank is 1500HP , while proposed but yet nonexistent engine for second batch of ALTAY is 1800HP.

Tesla S has electric motors with 825HP. If we use 2 times more powerful motors for ALTAY it makes 1650HP. To supply such setup with necessary energy minimum required battery capacity will be two sets of Tesla S batteries and in ALTAY design it will not be difficult to accomodate even four times more.

If we consider that it will be hybrid co-powered with locally produced diesel generator energy supply will be not a huge problem.

Local companies Aselsan, Temsa and Otokar has quite expertise in electric powering of heavy wheeled vehicles and Otokar even introduced a hybrid combat vehicle Akrep II. Combining the knowledge and creating synergy under auspices and lead of SSB might be necessary to fullfil such endeavour.