that was strategic blunder from overconfidence and anger thinking because of losses they sustained, if they maintained pressure only on airfields probably they would make it.Didnt the Germans also target cities rather than airfields.
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that was strategic blunder from overconfidence and anger thinking because of losses they sustained, if they maintained pressure only on airfields probably they would make it.Didnt the Germans also target cities rather than airfields.
yes, but jets were started to develop in 30ies, they had minimum enough time for relatively reliable jets if they comited enough resources on it. we are talking about only 2 years difference.Whatever new tech comes wont change the tide. Tech takes decades to mature.
STG44 was way ahead of the competition but came too late to change the tide.
Germans and their newly weapons like the V2 worked but were impractical due to a wide range of factors.
The Germans lost the mass production and the standardised war compared to the Allies and wasted their time on prototypes and variants of tanks rather than improving and mass producing a certain vehicle.
The Tiger Tank was a reliability mess with improvements it would have carried the day especially if they mass produced their Panzer tanks like the Allies T34 and Sherman.
that was strategic blunder from overconfidence and anger thinking because of losses they sustained, if they maintained pressure only on airfields probably they would make it.
yes, but jets were started to develop in 30ies, they had minimum enough time for relatively reliable jets if they comited enough resources on it. we are talking about only 2 years difference.
yep, if they carpet bombed airfields and related installations i think britons would be overwhelmed in strictly military terms speaking.British were defiant the Germans mass destroyed lots of cities with carpet bombing. The germans thought with constant bombing and pressire that the British wpuld give up as they seen in Belgium, Denmark and the Netherlands also France.
The ratio 1:10 was over Germany. Over Britain the ratio would be completely different. Plus me262 was 5 times more expensive than Me109. So even 10:1 ratio would not change much considering the overwhelming allied superiority in resources.it does not matter, either pilots or machines loss in couple of months of air battles in ratio where loss is 1 to 10 could not be sustainable for raf. apperiance of m263 in 42 would be game over for western allies no strawmanning can dispute that, totaly other question why it was not or was it possible at all to be introduced in large numbers on front lines.
we would never know what 200-300 of me262 paired with others luftwafe airfighter would do in renewed air battles over britain, i think that it would cause decisive win in that battle.The ratio 1:10 was over Germany. Over Britain the ratio would be completely different. Plus me262 was 5 times more expensive than Me109. So even 10:1 ratio would not change much considering the overwhelming allied superiority in resources.
Thats similar to Tiger tanks. They had 1:5 ratio but in same time they were many times more expensive than regular tanks. Many argue that their introduction actually had negative effect for the Germans.
whatever point remains same, among other things hitler decision did not help but let put it aside, you are aware that in 42 there was quite good infrastructure in holland, belgium, france to resume pressure on great britain, dont you think that north africa would not happen at all if that was the case that german started again air raids on britain and had succsess in it? couple of hundreds me262 would obliterate raf in britain at that time.
i appreciate your long reply and i would not go to much in debts of analysys what went wrong, i just assumed IF scenario and that IF scenario was possible in theory and resources, by all known facts they could if they wanted and i rely on that for plasuability of my claim, i admit that factual conditions are not in favor of my claim but it does not invalidate it completely as it could happen if lot of variables were put together in that direction, i know this kind of debates are futile but can not resist as they are amusingI have been following your conversation on the side with 500.
Let me add my 2 cents on it.
The decision was just one of many concerning the luftwaffe at consequence (both good and bad depending on the theatre and time period).
Hitler did not come up with it out of the blue, rather this was debated by planners who influenced/impressed upon him...and the debates for this trace well back during the 1930s at large w.r.t luftwaffe planners and industry experts.
Remember at start of war in 1939, Luftwaffe had 5 flight schools: 3 bomber, 1 naval aviation and only 1 fighter school.
This always steered decision toward bomber and dive bomber philosophy for the larger strategies (support the Heer especially).
Thus the overall situation creation (regd the luftwaffe) was not only due to Hitler ...and again logistics come into things front and centre as to what the real reason was for luftwaffe's abysmal performance as the war wore on
Me -262 whatever its advantages, was beset by a number of significant issues. These included being resource, infra and production hogs in both production and maintenance and operation. There were engine issues too.
I would suggest a thorough reading of these to get the details and relevant numbers:
(latter one all 4 volumes are highly recommended)
Logistically there is also the main design drive factor to consider.... of the turbojet in first place w.r.t German inability+high expense to improve octane rating of synthoil for piston engines.
That is a turbojet could consume the synthoil fractions that Germany was able to produce in larger amounts compared to refining say Romanian oil for aviation gasoline (at high enough octane rating).
Germans themselves knew this was a compromise (resource, infra, mro problems etc) given they would have much preferred larger numbers of high performance piston engine aircraft, if only the high-octane fuel was available for it (it wasnt). This was the basic goal of both Jumo and BMW turbojet design drive....cetane rating of the synthoil diesel was found acceptable relative to performance and the maintenance needs and issue prevalance.
Logistically though there were, numerous other factors for the luftwaffe to consider....even if we go with an air superiority resource allocation over ground support allocation and assume this can be done perfectly by the industry of Germany (which was already constrained by synthoil among other issues).
You can even do a best case scenario mapping of units for a theater of your choice. But if you then do follow up on the logistic issues for that theatre (eg afrika corps) accurately and with requisite depth, the serious issues will become quite clear
i.e first model how many Me-262s you want there...and then analyse the logistical strain from what german capacity (and transport) can give to it's support. Relevant things like oil supply (given specific distillate and quality on already limited situation), maintenance crews, engine overhaul time etc....and provision of these over the distances needed compared to the alternative force level units (piston eng fighters, bombers, dive bombers) you say are suboptimal. Then consider what the power levels are relative to that...and the needs of the theatre in question itself.
It is never a black and white position that simply because "Hitler" picked A over B (and without hindsight we have now), that picking B would have been the miracle....especially if you put into context what the logistics and strategic suitability (to the other strategies picked) was.
Pilot training and provision (given the flight school structure and attrition during war) is an especially underappreciated one.
The single biggest issue was Germany never expected a protracted air war (especially fighter based), hence just one school for it. They just assumed that the existing pilot corps (many were experienced veterans from WW1) would need very few replacements.
Eventually the huge need for new pilots, low availability of appropriate fuel for the flight schools and the limited number of schools themselves was really the death knell in the last 3 years of the war....as the training standards dropped considerably.
Paraphrasing from a paper https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1020261.pdf:
By 1944, The average Luftwaffe pilot was experiencing only 115 total flight hours before being pushed out to an operational unit.
Compare to RAF and USAAF who were receiving 340 and 360 total flying hours, respectively.
For fighter pilots, the situation was even worse. They were only receiving an average of 30 instructional hours in fighter aircraft before being thrust into combat, while the RAF fighter pilot was getting more than twice that at 75 hours.
The most highly trained fighter pilots during this time, in terms of training hours were the USAAF pilots who logged 165 hours of flight time in a combat aircraft before going to war.
As previously stated, both pilot attrition rates and a diminishing number of aircraft allocated for training were a primary cause of insufficient flying hours.
However, restrictions on aircraft fuel also played a significant role in the gradual disintegration of the Luftwaffe training program.
In 1942, the allocation of aviation fuel to the Chief of Training was so restricted that only a very limited number of personnel in certain critical categories could receive flight training at all.
As a result, the Luftwaffe trained a very small number of bomber and fighter pilots in the fall of 1942, and not nearly enough to replace the mounting losses as war intensified in the East.
So both Kaptaan and 500 are spot on about this decision by Hitler/OKW/advisors/planners being fairly inconsequential in first place (as to the larger problems confronting the Germans in air warfare to begin with past the fighter vs bomber choice)...and actually it was quite a pragmatic one if you study the Me-262 issues.
In simple terms. The Allies, that means Russia, UK and Commonwealth*, USA simply produced more tanks, more planes, more guns etc then Germans could. This mean't at some point the Germans were losing more then they could replace. The Allies produced more then they lost. Add to this the limited pool of manpower mean't in this war of attrition Germany would lose. Like I said in my earlier post it was just numbers. Brute numbers that defeated Germany.In 1941 USSR war creating new divisions at insane rate. Total 821 divisions were created and restored, that's 4 divisions a day.
That's why despite enormous loses - about 6 million killed, POW and injured. Red army in December 41 was larger than in June 41. Especially at front line.
In June 41 red army had 303 divisions total including 186 at front line.
In December 41 red army had 361 divisions total including 245 at front line.
Germans on the other hand got very minor reinforcement. Same divisions which fought in June 41 fought in December 41. Obviously their strength significantly reduced.
By the way when people say that T-34 was very easy to produce it is a popular myth. T-34 was new and quite problematic, its single piece thick armor was hard to produce (German tanks increased armor thickness by welding additional armor plates), it also required aluminum for its engine, which USSR lacked.
The major reason why Soviets built much more tanks than Germans is that Germans mobilized their economy only in 1943. Also Germans were building huge number of submarines and USSR getting aid from USA.
Lol at those unrepentant old dudes, you can't even be mad at themThis one is funny.
In simple terms. The Allies, that means Russia, UK and Commonwealth*, USA simply produced more tanks, more planes, more guns etc then Germans could. This mean't at some point the Germans were losing more then they could replace. The Allies produced more then they lost. Add to this the limited pool of manpower mean't in this war of attrition Germany would lose. Like I said in my earlier post it was just numbers. Brute numbers that defeated Germany.
In 1941 Germany still had plenty of resources. But Hitler decided not to send reinforcements. More over in November 1941 he ordered to send 2nd airfleet from Moscow front to Malta, seriously weakening the air support.In simple terms. The Allies, that means Russia, UK and Commonwealth*, USA simply produced more tanks, more planes, more guns etc then Germans could. This mean't at some point the Germans were losing more then they could replace. The Allies produced more then they lost. Add to this the limited pool of manpower mean't in this war of attrition Germany would lose. Like I said in my earlier post it was just numbers. Brute numbers that defeated Germany.
* The British Commonwealth alone provide millions of men. Myt granfather, my great uncle as well quite a few others from my ancestral village fought for the empire. The Germans had finite population and natural resources. By 1945 most German divisions had been bled white.
You realise that perhaps without meaning to you have outlined a template for war among Asian powers (to remain unnamed)? A very clear plan of action emerges, albeit one that requires a 50-year span of time.This is a huge part of it for sure (power levels and economic capacities to be unlocked)
But the bigger part is the location of the objectives and the route+distances to deploying these power levels and capacities.
Let's imagine if Moscow had been where say smolensk was (or closer, where Gen Wagner predicted the rough high water mark would be logistically, and he got it near spot on).
Also say if the permian oil field of romania simply continued in great abundance into western and central ukraine (to accompany the wheat there)....rather than the situation of USSR oil tucked away near the caucus/caspian.
With these we would be looking at a vastly different picture (even if the USSR had same population and industrial capacity and reserves to unlock). If say this hypothetical state existed like that (say with siberia and urals as a different polity say a khanate/horde that was inimical to USSR)....it didnt matter as much what the power levels and potential power levels of 2 - 3 years down road would be.....as the logistics would be gamed well in favour for German approach...and they forseeably could have done the knock out punch they desired to do (but overestimated grossly with what the reality in the world actually was).
i.e the relevant strategic depth factor was immense shield for USSR given the time it afforded, the logistical situation it unfolded for the Germans and as Stahel points out (on top of what I already mentioned earlier):
- the widening gaps during barbarossa itself (w.r.t logistics and thus operation scheduling and pace)
- the matter of where the German losses were crucially mounting (panzer units) relative to Soviets (infantry) and how the respective blunting of these (and the resources available for their replacement) would be handled by the respective economies and nations (i.e the far lower propensity/capacity of German economy to do this)
The latter is a recurring feature of Germany from the onset (if you read the luftwaffe one I gave above w.r.t the pilots and industrial capacity for example). These just didnt have what it needed for such a protracted drawn out war...and they sorely didnt plan for reinforcements and replacements (especially given factory labour had to be brought to the fighting front in the all out effort).
This was exactly why Barbarossa was an "all-in" effectively and was supposed to be done within just 1 fighting season. This is why the OKW/OKH/Hitler tensions/doubts really expanded after it was not accomplished (both on the record, and deep down).
In essence as Dr. Stahel and 500 have pointed out....Germany was oriented towards winning the war in a knock out punch (given their economy and industry being ill-designed for a protracted war....rather it was one that was better suited in hindsight especially to operate as war-economy in short bursts and blitzkriegs with requisite re-armament and replenishment in between...which drawn out logistical chains and intensities/attritions into Russia sorely upsets way past tipping point).
This is why the huge success in 1940 as the French and British power levels deployed on the western theatre were both ill-positioned and unit composition (not quantity, power level or respective industrial capacities even) was inadequate to deal with Fall Gelb....and there was just no strategic depth on offer after it. It was a more perfect hand in glove for the German approach and capacity.
The distances really really matter relative to firepower quantity, organisation and also energy densities+efficiencies of your propulsion (w.r.t. logistics and fighting units too).
The distances were just too long and a rational setup (which NSDAP certainly was the antithesis of) would have both seen that and not engaged in it (of if so engaged drastically differently on it).
But the NSDAP supremacy and ego (esp the poland, western theatre and balkans results earlier and thinking its just matter of easy scaling) overrode it.
In any case our point of contention here (aggregate bulk numbers vs capacities vs logistics) is really somewhat matter of semantics like discussing if the chocolate or cake is most important in a chocolate cake.
There is huge overlap between them (since they both influence the other in great ways at onset and the downstream consequence and opportunity costs) and its just matter of perspective.
From my reading the biggest weakness of Panzer Divisions were the Panzer Grenadiers or 'tank infantry'. In combat most Panzer Division would run out of Panzer Grenadiers thus leaving the tanks insufficient infantry support.Thats similar to Tiger tanks. They had 1:5 ratio but in same time they were many times more expensive than regular tanks. Many argue that their introduction actually had negative effect for the Germans.