TR Naval Programs

[Reviewbrah]

Nice setup but such a ship would require a larger radar than the MAR-D, perhaps HAZAR radar? STM FAC-55 is planned to be equipped with a SMART-S/HAZAR (sized) radar.

I though about that, I think HAZAR would be too overkill and expensive. Unless Navy wants to buy new or reuse SMART-S from other ships. Considering its mission would be supporting larger ships and protecting EEZ, trade routes. MAR-D is very good for the task and cost effective.

 

[Yasar_TR]

They have only recently started modernising Burak Class. It must be coming to an end by now If not already ended.

Türk Donanması'nda Burak modernizasyonu

Ege ve Doğu Akdeniz’de daha çok varlık ve daha yüksek etkinlikle görev yapmak isteyen Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri, çalışmalarını sürdürüyor. Bir süredir gündemde olan Burak sınıfı korvet modernizasyonunda ilk platform üzerindeki tadilat çalışmalarının tamamlandığı görüntülendi. @oeroguz adlı...

m5dergi.com

It would be a bit of false economy if we start decommissioning them. Besides we don’t really have anything else to replace them. They are also ideal for oceanic escort duty.

 

[Yasar_TR]

When are we going to replace Burak-class light corvette? I know, not anytime soon but still.

Around 1600 tons

76mm Gun
8-cell MDAS (G40, Hisar RF)
8x Atmaca
1x Korkut CIWS
2x 25mm Aselsan STOP
Ship-based UMTAS, Kargı Family Loitering Munition etc.
2x Orka Light Torpedo
1x Roketsan DSH
MAR-D
AKR-D Blok-A2
TS1400 based gas turbine(s)

would be nice
Majority of the systems on the list is already under production

Yonca Onuk also has great solutions for a corvette and fast boats. If we stop giving projects to political backers we would see much better results.
The ship below has :
Gokdeniz CWIS, Stamp, Atmaca, Sungur, Lumtas, 76mm gun, Helcopter
In short almost everything you need from a corvette.

 

[Anmdt]

They have only recently started modernising Burak Class. It must be coming to an end by now If not already ended.

Türk Donanması'nda Burak modernizasyonu

Ege ve Doğu Akdeniz’de daha çok varlık ve daha yüksek etkinlikle görev yapmak isteyen Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri, çalışmalarını sürdürüyor. Bir süredir gündemde olan Burak sınıfı korvet modernizasyonunda ilk platform üzerindeki tadilat çalışmalarının tamamlandığı görüntülendi. @oeroguz adlı...

m5dergi.com

It would be a bit of false economy if we start decommissioning them. Besides we don’t really have anything else to replace them. They are also ideal for oceanic escort duty.

Anything installed on them during modernization can be removed and installed on the new vessel.
It was a temporary upgrade. Imo same suite will be used on similar ships.

Not a trouble to replace them as well, there are several other designs for replacement.

 

[Turko]

When are we going to replace Burak-class light corvette? I know, not anytime soon but still.

Around 1600 tons

76mm Gun
8-cell MDAS (G40, Hisar RF)
8x Atmaca
1x Korkut CIWS
2x 25mm Aselsan STOP
Ship-based UMTAS, Kargı Family Loitering Munition etc.
2x Orka Light Torpedo
1x Roketsan DSH
MAR-D
AKR-D Blok-A2
TS1400 based gas turbine(s)

would be nice
Majority of the systems on the list is already under production

İ understand you but at hand we have already had ADA-Class corvettes that have a solid radar without G40s, HİSAR-O rf even ESSMs.

There are conservative decision makers in TN.

Haven't you read my entries , how i suffer myself offering for Tuzla-Class, Türkish point defence systems which equivalent of C-Dome or Sea Ceptor .
by the way C-Dome is renown for cheap costs.
TN liked SUNGUR so I'm miserable.

ADA Corvettes need ESSM/G40s ,with SMART-S; Tuzla class patrol boats need / C-Dome/Sea captor with MAR-D.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Anything installed on them during modernization can be removed and installed on the new vessel.
It was a temporary upgrade. Imo same suite will be used on similar ships.

Not a trouble to replace them as well, there are several other designs for replacement.

I am sure the type of additions on the Burak can be passed on to another platform. In fact I am all for it. No need to waste it.
But most importantly there is at this point in time, no replacement ships for them. By the time there are, in view of the speed we are making new ships, then we will have used these for a further decade.

 

[Huelague]

I think all Corvets needs ADS. In GER, they say " Eierlegende Wollmilchsau". A subject/object who is able to do everything.

 

[Brave Janissary]

Mar-d is a biggest game changer for this ships. In the paper Mar-d is a x band 100 km ranged radar.
Dont forget, Mar-d is a Aesa radar. I'm not %100 sure but with radar control suite you can change his radar module wavelenghts. What that means. This radar can be work on with radar control suit s band or c band mode also.

-------
For example ;

Usa is using s/x band in an-spy/3 radar.

On the other hand new usa freem only use an-spy/6 v3 s band radar. They cant have any x band aesa radar . He have 32x vls and usa plan to use on him sm-6, sm-2. That kind of ship of course need x band aesa radar.But it cant have. With help of aesa tech, an-spy6 radar can be work on x band also . (on the origin his designed resist to xband ) On the other an-spy6 can be divide the radar modules capability half or 4/1 or any percentage and work on s band and x band same time (but yes his range capability is down but he have huge range in the total)

Also Sampson radar on type-45 is rotated aesa radar and reffered s band. But s band's generally used for long range search but he have also L band radar on him (smart-l ) for this duty. Thruth in the behind sampson radar is changeing his wavelenght s band to x band or c band for target seeking for aster-30.
-----------

So if we return the our object, Mar-d radar is equal or better than smart-s mk2 (thanks Allah for Gan tech) on S band. For this reason we are use in corvette main search radar a mar-d who known a x band based aesa radar.

So maybe any guy want to say why we are using Barbaros Mlu mar-d/smart-s mk2 same time if they are same. It's very clear when you have smart eyes. Navy want a same time x and s band search on barbaros frigates. Yes mar-d can divide his modules for s and x band same time but their same time s/x band ranges not enough for barbaros. For this reason they are using him same time.

But why İ class doesnt have mar-d when more old barbaros have him ? Just because i class will carry Hazar 3d Aesa Radar who have greater x band range than mar-d. When hazar dive his modules for x band and s band they will have greater range on two diffrent band same time. For this reason i class doesnt need mar-d. But he have fcr radar for missile mid course guidance. That's a diffrent story.

A little question, Why barbaros mlu doesnt have Hazar-3d and why milgem doesnt have mar-d behalf of smart-s mk2 ?

Already barbaros ships have smart-s there is no need hazar-3d kind more costly radar. When milgems planned , there is no radar like mar-d.

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I think we are headed Bergamini class freems like İ class on the paper. Just more smaller . Bergamini uses c band aesa radar kronos. But he can be change his wavelenght or divide the modules for more brighter radar echo's for using aster-30 more effectively.

Bergamini have 32x vls for 8x scalp for land attack, 8x aster-30 and 16x aster-15 (doesnt have quadpack capability) 8x otomat(İt can be changeable).
İ class can carry 10x hisar-u + 24x essm/g-40 + 8x atmaca blok 2 for land attack + 8x atmaca block 1 for anti ship.

İn the basis İ class is more capable. Just freem's have more bigger livingrooms, depots, bridge's for comfort of his crew in the open seas. And its more cheaper than him. When we think ada class is had a opeartions on gulf of aden , there is no problem on the open sea capabilities of İ class.

 

[Anmdt]

Dont forget, Mar-d is a Aesa radar. I'm not %100 sure but with radar control suite you can change his radar module wavelenghts. What that means. This radar can be work on with radar control suit s band or c band mode also.

An X band radar is an X band radar,
a C band radar is a C band radar.
"Band", is not a single frequency but a range of frequencies. Switching between them is not simple as pressing buttons it requires modifications in design level ( merging or T/R modules, a different set of T/R design)

Usa is using s/x band in an-spy/3 radar.

The radar is not switchable, not dual mode radar but a sensor merging S and X band radar in a single suit. God knows how they achieve it but it is not simply an X band radar magically can operate in S band via software modifications. They started to remove S band modules in recent ones.

So if we return the our object, Mar-d radar is equal or better than smart-s mk2 (thanks Allah for Gan tech) on S band. For this reason we are use in corvette main search radar a mar-d who known a x band based aesa radar.

The technology is greater, not the radar. But the latest aselsan radar will be superior to the Smart-S ( otherwise why bother to replace while Aselsan is nearly producing a Smart-S on their own)

EIRS radar is also an S band radar and it is longer range.

A little question, Why barbaros mlu doesnt have Hazar-3d and why milgem doesnt have mar-d behalf of smart-s mk2 ?

Mar-d is not a replacement for Smart-s. Navy has required Milgem's to have volume 3D search ability in at least 200 km. Mar-d is currently efficient up to 100 km and in lower altitudes compared to Smart -S (or aesa Hazar)

But why İ class doesnt have mar-d when more old barbaros have him

Who says i class doesnt have it? Have you checked the renders, haven't you noticed mar-d attached to gokdeniz?
In barbaros mar-d is also used to feed CIWS. And possibly for better resolution of targets.

Yes mar-d can divide his modules for s and x band same time

There is nothing such like this. An X band radar is an X band radar. You can not divide cells to operate in both, at least not in this radar.
Mar-d is not an spy-3 even US is dropping S band from their DBR due to complexity and upgrading X band to have Volume search ability.

 

[Brave Janissary]

An X band radar is an X band radar,
a C band radar is a C band radar.
"Band", is not a single frequency but a range of fequencies.

Your think wrong Aesa radar's not a classical radar. They are consisted multiple mini radar's who named radar module arrays or gan modules. like that ;

Each radar module array or gan module can be work like a separete radar. And can be work diffrent wavelenghts on the other hand diffrent pulse combinations. With gan based aesa tech, you can search volume search in the s band when you detect a enemy aircrafts and they are in the x band range you can sepereate many modules for seek this targets in the x band range.

An/spy-3 radar isnt a radar like you state. In the orginally , Usa navy want a use An/spy-3 x band and an/spy-4 s band radar like a çafrad çfr and umr. But higher costs doesnt allowed him. So usa navy decided cancel spy-4 and use a spy-3 is multi function radar s/x band.

 

[Anmdt]

Thruth in the behind sampson radar is changeing his wavelenght s band to x band or c band for target seeking for aster-30.

....
Type 45 has 2 sets of illumination radars (I and E/F).
Like Type-45, TF-2000 has different sets of radars for different purposes ( long range survailance, illumination, multi purpose volume -surface search)
The radar you mention is a multi purpose -multi function S band radar.

 

[Turko]

An X band radar is an X band radar,
a C band radar is a C band radar.
"Band", is not a single frequency but a range of fequencies.


The radar is not switchable, not dual mode radar but a sensor merging S and X band radar in a single suit.

The technology is greater, not the radar. But the latest aselsan radar will be superior to the Smart-S ( otherwise why bother to replace while Aselsan is nearly producing a Smart-S on their own)

EIRS radar is also an S band radar and it is long range.


Mar-d is not a replacement for Smart-s. Navy has required Milgem's to have volume 3D search ability in at least 200 km. Mar-d is currently efficient up to 100 km and in lower altitudes compared to Smart -S (or aesa Hazar)

Who says i class doesnt have it? Have you checked the renders, haven't you noticed mar-d attached to gokdeniz?
In barbaros mar-d is also used to feed CIWS. And possibly for better resolution of targets.
F

There is nothing such like this. An X band radar is an X band radar. You can not divide cells to operate in both, at least not in this radar.

Do we have indigenous C-Dome or RAM projects ? Please enlighten me i can't sleep.

 

[Anmdt]

Your think wrong Aesa radar's not a classical radar. They are consisted multiple mini radar's who named radar module arrays or gan modules. like that ;

Each radar module array or gan module can be work like a separete radar. And can be work diffrent wavelenghts on the other hand diffrent pulse combinations. With gan based aesa tech, you can search volume search in the s band when you detect a enemy aircrafts and they are in the x band range you can sepereate many modules for seek this targets in the x band range.

An/spy-3 radar isnt a radar like you state. In the orginally , Usa navy want a use An/spy-3 x band and an/spy-4 s band radar like a çafrad çfr and umr. But higher costs doesnt allowed him. So usa navy decided cancel spy-4 and use a spy-3 is multi function radar s/x band.

Us is removing S band from an spy due to complexity in overhauls.

Each radar module array or gan module can be work like a separete radar. And can be work diffrent wavelenghts on the other hand diffrent pulse combinations. With gan based aesa tech, you can search volume search in the s band when you detect a enemy aircrafts and they are in the x band range you can sepereate many modules for

It is not how it works, you are telling as if it is done in software level on computers.
It is done from scratch, what i am telling is you can not just switch bands of an already manufactured specifically for X band radar.
If it was magically happening anyone capable of manufacturing aesa radar would be manufacturing a single radar to rule all needs. Like why Type 45 has different radars for S band, I band, E/F band?
US has switched to X band an spy 3, and now x band radar is also capable of volume search through some modifications.
I know how aesa radar works, what i am telling mar -d can not operate in dual mode if it is not designed such.
You can not change it by software updates.

 

[Brave Janissary]

....
Type 45 has 2 sets of illumination radars (I and E/F).
Like Type-45, TF-2000 has different sets of radars for different purposes ( long range survailance, illumination, multi purpose volume -surface search)
The radar you mention is a multi purpose -multi function S band radar.

Type 45 Have L band Smart-L radar who ranged 400 km around . And also he have s band sampson aesa radar 450 km ranged.

S band is 2-4 ghz and L band is 1-2 ghz it's almost same mission profile radar. Why that ship carry same type radars ?

Actually story is diffrent sampson is a aesa radar and he can be controlable his radar frequancies.

------

And also a radar on gökdeniz is not mar-d, its mar radar. İt's diffrent sized and capable radar with same tech. And still we dont know which gökdeniz version (onboard mar or just fcr) will be in i class.

 

[Brave Janissary]

If it was magically happening anyone capable of manufacturing aesa radar would be manufacturing a single radar to rule all needs. Like why Type 45 has different radars for S band, I band, E/F band?

Reason is cost and technological limits.

When you want 450 km s band range and 150 km around x band range same time in one radar you need a radar like an/spy-3 like radar. Or maybe more. But when this ships are radar designed in 20 th century (not 21 ) british's doesnt have that kind gan based technology. So they are's used two diffrent radars and one of them more cheaper not aesa l band more classical radar.

 

[Anmdt]

Type 45 Have L band Smart-L radar who ranged 400 km around . And also he have s band sampson aesa radar 450 km ranged.

S band is 2-4 ghz and L band is 1-2 ghz it's almost same mission profile radar. Why that ship carry same type radars ?

Actually story is diffrent sampson is a aesa radar and he can be controlable his radar frequancies.

------

And also a radar on gökdeniz is not mar-d, its mar radar. İt's diffrent sized and capable radar with same tech. And still we dont know which gökdeniz version (onboard mar or just fcr) will be in i class.

Mar-d = mar radar for naval platforms.

Mobil ariyici radar - mar ( for korkut spaag)
-d deniz.
Why should a land radar(mar) be placed on gokdeniz?

Check aselsan's brochure and you will find out an 3D search radar (mar-d) is optional for gokdeniz.

And it was shown with a mar-d on gokdeniz in latest i -class renders. It may be placed in somewhere else too, like on a mast in somewhere proper.
Also preference of Turkish navy has been revealed with barbaros MLU, they require one S band for volume search another X band for precision tracking and higher resolution (Also probably EW, illumination etc), so why shouldnt this apply to I -Class.
______________

Dual band radars hosts different set of radar module assemblies (rma) which acts as standalone radar. A dual band radar is combination of s and x band rma. The back end (consoles, servers etc) is shared.

If you scale a module (rma) down to a t/r unit then each unit may become a standalone radar, however it is not feasible.
A radar is not just a t/r unit, but a whole of processing units (computers, filters, servers) in the backend.
US does it in a feasible way by creating sub blocks of radars to freely change the form of the radar. They have hundreds of vessels which needs advanced radar systems.
I am expecting the same from Aselsan but probably a decade later.

Sampson is S band.
One of them (L band ) is early warning radar.
The latter is multi purpose tracking radar.

 

[Anmdt]

Reason is cost and technological limits.

When you want 450 km s band range and 150 km around x band range same time in one radar you need a radar like an/spy-3 like radar. Or maybe more. But when this ships are radar designed in 20 th century (not 21 ) british's doesnt have that kind gan based technology. So they are's used two diffrent radars and one of them more cheaper not aesa l band more classical radars

You have answered it by yourself, so mar-d or hazar ,or sampson is not actually dual band, but single band radars and the band can not be switched by a button.
I also explained , briefly, how a dual band radar works.
A dual band is dual band because it has one module for s band , another for x band linked to a single backend. (Processing unit)
British can achieve this as well, not related to GaN technology. But related to modular radar manufacturing.
An spy 6 alone costs as much as a single I class frigate. probably smaller v 2 costs about $100~ million

Like, US has removed S band modules of an spy 3 and in newer systems and it is solely X band.

Wikipedia the ultimate source of basic knowledge, i suggest you to check it sometimes:
Smart-L ( upgraded for type 45).

"This has a greater search radius, capable of detecting ballistic missiles and has a tracking range of 2000 km for ballistic missile defence and 480 km for air defence."

Sampson radar is not capable of this. The reason why two different radars exists on Type-45.
Probably I and E/F radars exists for illumination.
While aselsan s band aesa EIRS is superior to smart-L. 4 of this radar will be available on TF-2000.

 

[Brave Janissary]

Mar-d = mar radar for naval platforms.

Mobil ariyici radar - mar ( for korkut spaag)
-d deniz.
Why should a land radar(mar) be placed on gokdeniz?

Check aselsan's brochure and you will find out an 3D search radar (mar-d) is optional for gokdeniz.

And it was shown with a mar-d on gokdeniz in latest i -class renders. It may be placed in somewhere else too, like on a mast in somewhere proper.
______________

Dual band radars hosts different set of radar module assemblies (rma) which acts as standalone radar. A dual band radar is combination of s and x band rma. The back end (consoles, servers etc) is shared.

If you scale a module (rma) down to a t/r unit then each unit may become a standalone radar, however it is not feasible.
A radar is not just a t/r unit, but a whole of processing units (computers, filters, servers) in the backend.
US does it in a feasible way by creating sub blocks of radars to freely change the form of the radar. They have hundreds of vessels which needs advanced radar systems.
I am expecting the same from Aselsan but probably a decade later.

Sampson is S band.
One of them (L band ) is early warning radar.
The latter is multi purpose tracking radar.

X band functionality (8 to 12 GHz frequency range) is optimal for minimizing low-altitude propagation effects, narrow beam width for best tracking accuracy, wide frequency bandwidth for effective target discrimination, and the target illumination.
Without x band type-45 is not a truly air defence frigate.
Without x band radar how it could be make effective anti balistic defence ?

He just talk about software modifications also.

On the other hand from your side arleigh burke's use sm-3 only with s band without x band.

 

[Brave Janissary]

Mar-d = mar radar for naval platforms.

Mobil ariyici radar - mar ( for korkut spaag)
-d deniz.
Why should a land radar(mar) be placed on gokdeniz?

Check aselsan's brochure and you will find out an 3D search radar (mar-d) is optional for gokdeniz.

And it was shown with a mar-d on gokdeniz in latest i -class renders. It may be placed in somewhere else too, like on a mast in somewhere proper.
Also preference of Turkish navy has been revealed with barbaros MLU, they require one S band for volume search another X band for precision tracking and higher resolution (Also probably EW, illumination etc), so why shouldnt this apply to I -Class.
______________

Dual band radars hosts different set of radar module assemblies (rma) which acts as standalone radar. A dual band radar is combination of s and x band rma. The back end (consoles, servers etc) is shared.

If you scale a module (rma) down to a t/r unit then each unit may become a standalone radar, however it is not feasible.
A radar is not just a t/r unit, but a whole of processing units (computers, filters, servers) in the backend.
US does it in a feasible way by creating sub blocks of radars to freely change the form of the radar. They have hundreds of vessels which needs advanced radar systems.
I am expecting the same from Aselsan but probably a decade later.

Sampson is S band.
One of them (L band ) is early warning radar.
The latter is multi purpose tracking radar.

They are not have same specs. Radar range, aircraft seek range etc.

 

[chngr]

Aster missiles have active radar seeker unlike SM-2 and ESSM.