- Messages
- 5,460
- Solutions
- 2
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Each gabya also has 32 cell magazine for air defence missiles (SM1 , unsure if SM2). Which also can be considered as a VLS.
So
+8 x 32 (unsure how many of those launchers are active and the availability of missiles)
Future projection by 2030 , in addition:
4x 16 VLS on I class.
1x 64 VLS on TF-2000
By 2035 , in addition to above:
3x 64 VLS on TF-2000
Unknown number x 32 VLS on an unknown platform.
Which will retire by 2035:
4 x 8 Gabya + 8 x 32 Magazine
2 x 16 Salih reis
2 x 8 Barbaros
Reviewbrah
Contributor
- Messages
- 535
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
Egypt Navy Can Be Reach Same Level With Turkey In Short Term ?
Mısır Donanması Kısa Vadede Türk Donanmasını Yakalayabilir mi ? Güneydeki Tehlike: Mısır
Bilindiği gibi bir müslüman ülkesi olan Mısır, Doğu Akdeniz'de ne yazıkki Türkiye'ye karşı bir konum almış durumdadır. Mısır Ordusu'nun kurm...gerceksavunmasanayi.blogspot.com
How do you get so many ships and train capable sailors in a short time. No news about Egypt modernizing its logistical fleet. So many different systems, they will have many issues with logistics and communications (which they are not already good at). If something goes wrong with their ships, even for a small software fix, its going to be completely depended on Italians, French and Germans.
So many other factors.
A
Wat about the 4 modernized Barbaros/Salih Reis class ready by 2025?Egypt Navy Can Be Reach Same Level With Turkey In Short Term ?
Mısır Donanması Kısa Vadede Türk Donanmasını Yakalayabilir mi ? Güneydeki Tehlike: Mısır
Bilindiği gibi bir müslüman ülkesi olan Mısır, Doğu Akdeniz'de ne yazıkki Türkiye'ye karşı bir konum almış durumdadır. Mısır Ordusu'nun kurm...
- Messages
- 2,152
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
At the moment we are in urgent needs for ships, untill a I class in operational 1 will be upgraded.
corsair255
Active member
- Messages
- 30
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
You can read the article titled "Reis Class Submarines and their Meaning for the Turkish Naval Forces" written by ENVER AKSOY by clicking the link below:
https://lnkd.in/dqSyfid
Since the reading on the link is in Turkish, for non-Turkish members, i've little-modified and translated it to English. Enjoy...
When I was at Attaché, i met the first submarine with AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) system, with the HS Papanikolis submarine, which Greece bought from Germany through a difficult procurement process. The Greek side threatened not to accept the submarine by claiming that the submarine was leaning on its sideways while surfacing, especially in rough seas, which prolonged the process. However, in my meeting with the German Armaments Attaché, he said that this was not the case and Greece, struggling with the economic crisis, made such a claim to lower the price of the submarine. As a result, the parties somehow agreed and the submarine was accepted by Greece.
The Greek General Staff organized an attache tour to Salamis, home base to submarine, to show this platform, which made a big impact at that time, and invited all attachés in Athens to this trip. This U-214 class submarine was the world's most advanced conventional submarine at that time. On the way to this trip, I knew that we were going to procure these submarines. I had visited our own submarines before and even had the honor of being an "Honorary Submariner" by diving with both AY and PREVEZE classes. So I could see the difference.
U-214 class submarines were the platforms which the Germans were very ambitious. Thanks to the AIP System, they could stay underwater much longer than other diesel-electric submarines. Fort he term “a long time”, no one should confuse it with nuclear submarines. The food and psychology of the personnel is the only thing determines the duration of submergence in nuclear submarines. The US Navy has determined this period as 6 months. Despite this advantage of nuclear submarines, the noise generated by the water pump working like crazy to cool the reactor is their biggest weakness against conventional submarines.
In submarines with AIP system, the time spent submerged is proportional to the speed of the boat. The system used in U-214 class submarines works by converting the energy generated by chemical reaction in the fuel cell modules of oxygen and hydrogen into electricity. So when the oxygen or hydrogen runs out, the submarine turns into a normal diesel-electric submarine. Now "Why is the submerged time so important?" you might ask. The biggest weakness of conventional submarines is the need to go to snorkel depth to recharge their discharged batteries by operating their diesel engines. Depending on the speed level used by the submarine, the duration of this requirement varies greatly. A submarine that goes to snorkel depth has a high risk of getting caught in the radar, especially by aircraft.
U-214 class submarines do not only have the AIP feature; Thanks to its advanced integrated sensor and weapon control systems, they can launch torpedoes from very long distances (at least twice the sonar detection range of surface ships) and from underwater to surface (ships and ground targets) guided missiles. She even has the ability to launch missiles while submerged against air targets such as aircraft or chopper that pose a threat to the submarine.
Being aware of these, Turkish Naval Forces signed a contract with ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) in 2009 to build 6 U-214 class submarines in Golcuk Naval Shipyard under the name of the New Type Submarine Project. These submarines, called the Reis class, were subjected to some changes in line with the needs of the Turkish Naval Forces, which led to a prolongation of the construction process. However, the process is now on the way and it is planned that they will enter the service of the Turkish Naval Forces, one per year from 2022.
With the Reis class submarines, not only the above mentioned capabilities of U-214 be acquired but also many local companies produce the components of the submarine as subcontractors, many engineers receive training from the Contractor company and in this context, great experience has been gained from design to construction. This situation not only increases the domestic production share (81%) in submarines, but also forms the basis of the National Submarine (MİLDEN) to be produced in the future.
Another benefit of building these submarines inhouse is preparation for the international market. As a matter of fact, the success of MİLGEM is obvious. It would not be wrong to say that countries such as Pakistan and Indonesia are potential customers for MİLDEN in the near future.
Finally, a point to remember; domestic defense industry companies producing submarine components use their own means or their own original designs, especially in critical body parts, sensors and other electronic systems. The production of critical body parts in our country and the integration of indigenous original devices and systems into such a complex structure is an experience in itself. Moreover, our companies did not hesitate to make any investments while doing this. Undoubtedly, there is an urge to be ready for the MİLDEN project.
https://lnkd.in/dqSyfid
Since the reading on the link is in Turkish, for non-Turkish members, i've little-modified and translated it to English. Enjoy...
Reis Class Submarines and Their Meaning for the Turkish Navy
When I was at Attaché, i met the first submarine with AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) system, with the HS Papanikolis submarine, which Greece bought from Germany through a difficult procurement process. The Greek side threatened not to accept the submarine by claiming that the submarine was leaning on its sideways while surfacing, especially in rough seas, which prolonged the process. However, in my meeting with the German Armaments Attaché, he said that this was not the case and Greece, struggling with the economic crisis, made such a claim to lower the price of the submarine. As a result, the parties somehow agreed and the submarine was accepted by Greece.
The Greek General Staff organized an attache tour to Salamis, home base to submarine, to show this platform, which made a big impact at that time, and invited all attachés in Athens to this trip. This U-214 class submarine was the world's most advanced conventional submarine at that time. On the way to this trip, I knew that we were going to procure these submarines. I had visited our own submarines before and even had the honor of being an "Honorary Submariner" by diving with both AY and PREVEZE classes. So I could see the difference.
U-214 class submarines were the platforms which the Germans were very ambitious. Thanks to the AIP System, they could stay underwater much longer than other diesel-electric submarines. Fort he term “a long time”, no one should confuse it with nuclear submarines. The food and psychology of the personnel is the only thing determines the duration of submergence in nuclear submarines. The US Navy has determined this period as 6 months. Despite this advantage of nuclear submarines, the noise generated by the water pump working like crazy to cool the reactor is their biggest weakness against conventional submarines.
In submarines with AIP system, the time spent submerged is proportional to the speed of the boat. The system used in U-214 class submarines works by converting the energy generated by chemical reaction in the fuel cell modules of oxygen and hydrogen into electricity. So when the oxygen or hydrogen runs out, the submarine turns into a normal diesel-electric submarine. Now "Why is the submerged time so important?" you might ask. The biggest weakness of conventional submarines is the need to go to snorkel depth to recharge their discharged batteries by operating their diesel engines. Depending on the speed level used by the submarine, the duration of this requirement varies greatly. A submarine that goes to snorkel depth has a high risk of getting caught in the radar, especially by aircraft.
U-214 class submarines do not only have the AIP feature; Thanks to its advanced integrated sensor and weapon control systems, they can launch torpedoes from very long distances (at least twice the sonar detection range of surface ships) and from underwater to surface (ships and ground targets) guided missiles. She even has the ability to launch missiles while submerged against air targets such as aircraft or chopper that pose a threat to the submarine.
Being aware of these, Turkish Naval Forces signed a contract with ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) in 2009 to build 6 U-214 class submarines in Golcuk Naval Shipyard under the name of the New Type Submarine Project. These submarines, called the Reis class, were subjected to some changes in line with the needs of the Turkish Naval Forces, which led to a prolongation of the construction process. However, the process is now on the way and it is planned that they will enter the service of the Turkish Naval Forces, one per year from 2022.
With the Reis class submarines, not only the above mentioned capabilities of U-214 be acquired but also many local companies produce the components of the submarine as subcontractors, many engineers receive training from the Contractor company and in this context, great experience has been gained from design to construction. This situation not only increases the domestic production share (81%) in submarines, but also forms the basis of the National Submarine (MİLDEN) to be produced in the future.
Another benefit of building these submarines inhouse is preparation for the international market. As a matter of fact, the success of MİLGEM is obvious. It would not be wrong to say that countries such as Pakistan and Indonesia are potential customers for MİLDEN in the near future.
Finally, a point to remember; domestic defense industry companies producing submarine components use their own means or their own original designs, especially in critical body parts, sensors and other electronic systems. The production of critical body parts in our country and the integration of indigenous original devices and systems into such a complex structure is an experience in itself. Moreover, our companies did not hesitate to make any investments while doing this. Undoubtedly, there is an urge to be ready for the MİLDEN project.
- Messages
- 3,225
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
That is why we should hurry and put these subs in to service ASAP. Production of the 6th Reis class is still waiting to be started.
There is a wideo about it, Turkiye Kuresel guch.. super wideo, comparing Greek and Turkish navy not based on ships but based on VLS..
E
E
Thank you for the good work. Very informative.
The quantity seems to be a little too low and perhaps inadequate in view of Turkish geopolitical aspirations, population, history, current leadership and ties of kinship, culture, religion, customs and brotherhood with various peoples outside its borders.
As an example, the similar quantities for numerous Asia-Pacific countries, as tallied by the Lowy Institute from Australia are:
power.lowyinstitute.org
The number of VLS cells in operation with the Turkish navy should be at least 80% of that in South Korea, if not higher.
Is that an unrealistic expectation?
Tiny Singapore operates more VLS cells aboard its surface combatants than the entire navy of Turkey, or Australia, or Indonesia, or Malaysia, or Thailand.
And almost 50% as much as South Korea (which is about 9 times as populous, more than 100 times as big in area and currently, in a state of war with North Korea) when Singapore has no country as its enemy (as a matter of official policy) and is not in a state of war.
Because of the above, I believe the expectations from Turkey are quite reasonable.
The quantity seems to be a little too low and perhaps inadequate in view of Turkish geopolitical aspirations, population, history, current leadership and ties of kinship, culture, religion, customs and brotherhood with various peoples outside its borders.
As an example, the similar quantities for numerous Asia-Pacific countries, as tallied by the Lowy Institute from Australia are:
Maritime warfare: Firepower data - Lowy Institute Asia Power Index
Maritime warfare: Firepower – proxy: Missile vertical launching cells on board surface combatants and submarines.
The number of VLS cells in operation with the Turkish navy should be at least 80% of that in South Korea, if not higher.
Is that an unrealistic expectation?
Tiny Singapore operates more VLS cells aboard its surface combatants than the entire navy of Turkey, or Australia, or Indonesia, or Malaysia, or Thailand.
And almost 50% as much as South Korea (which is about 9 times as populous, more than 100 times as big in area and currently, in a state of war with North Korea) when Singapore has no country as its enemy (as a matter of official policy) and is not in a state of war.
Because of the above, I believe the expectations from Turkey are quite reasonable.
A
Well, IMO, as the Turkish navy doesn't operate weapons that are able to be fired from mk 41 VLS other than the ESSM, this means that the 80 VLS cells could theoretically hold 80*4=320 ESSM's. And the 8 Gabya class still have the mk13 launchers which hold 40 SM-1 missiles. That is another 320 SM-1 missiles, so in total the Turkish navy could have up to 640 medium/long range air-defense missiles.Thank you for the good work. Very informative.
The quantity seems to be a little too low and perhaps inadequate in view of Turkish geopolitical aspirations, population, history, current leadership and ties of kinship, culture, religion, customs and brotherhood with various peoples outside its borders.
As an example, the similar quantities for numerous Asia-Pacific countries, as tallied by the Lowy Institute from Australia are:
Maritime warfare: Firepower data - Lowy Institute Asia Power Index
Maritime warfare: Firepower – proxy: Missile vertical launching cells on board surface combatants and submarines.
View attachment 13610
The number of VLS cells in operation with the Turkish navy should be at least 80% of that in South Korea, if not higher.
Is that an unrealistic expectation?
Tiny Singapore operates more VLS cells aboard its surface combatants than the entire navy of Turkey, or Australia, or Indonesia, or Malaysia, or Thailand.
And almost 50% as much as South Korea (which is about 9 times as populous, more than 100 times as big in area and currently, in a state of war with North Korea) when Singapore has no country as its enemy (as a matter of official policy) and is not in a state of war.
Because of the above, I believe the expectations from Turkey are quite reasonable.
And if one follows the development in the Turkish defense industry, we can see that the amount of VLS will grow in the near future, with the addition of 4x16 VLS on the I-class FFG and presumably 7x64 VLS on the TF-2000.
And there is also the geopolitical considerations of how many VLS the Turkish navy needs. Turkey doesn't border a brainwashed, to the teeth armed with both conventional weapons and WMD, Norts Korea. Comparing the geopolitical conditions of Turkey to South Korea is comparing apples to oranges.
But to sooth your worries about the Turkish navy not having enough VLS, the 7 TF-2000 are good for 448 VLS. Combine that with the 64 VLS on the I-class, and 64 on the Barbaros class, the Turkish navy could have at least 576 VLS by 2035. This almost approaches your arbitrary minimum of 80% (592) mark vis-a-vis the ROKN. So rest assured, the Turkish navy is on its way to meet your personal VLS requirement
.you got two options, Singapore is small, is it need to be able to stand to saturation attak to save its airports and so on until the jets fly.Thank you for the good work. Very informative.
The quantity seems to be a little too low and perhaps inadequate in view of Turkish geopolitical aspirations, population, history, current leadership and ties of kinship, culture, religion, customs and brotherhood with various peoples outside its borders.
As an example, the similar quantities for numerous Asia-Pacific countries, as tallied by the Lowy Institute from Australia are:
Maritime warfare: Firepower data - Lowy Institute Asia Power Index
Maritime warfare: Firepower – proxy: Missile vertical launching cells on board surface combatants and submarines.
View attachment 13610
The number of VLS cells in operation with the Turkish navy should be at least 80% of that in South Korea, if not higher.
Is that an unrealistic expectation?
Tiny Singapore operates more VLS cells aboard its surface combatants than the entire navy of Turkey, or Australia, or Indonesia, or Malaysia, or Thailand.
And almost 50% as much as South Korea (which is about 9 times as populous, more than 100 times as big in area and currently, in a state of war with North Korea) when Singapore has no country as its enemy (as a matter of official policy) and is not in a state of war.
Because of the above, I believe the expectations from Turkey are quite reasonable.
however, Turkey, got so many attak capabilities, it got so many ways to stop coming ships far from the distance they are able to shoot harpoon type missiles, unless they shoot expensive Tomahawk type missiles that will be stopped by Turkish jets as it takes longer to arrive from long 1000km distance. i dont say less than 1000km, because now they will be the target of thousands of Turkish SOM missiles and no way to stop it for several ships plus submarines. also, Turkish ship will be operating near the mainland, means Turkish jets or new Akinji will be tasked to protect them from most of the coming missiles...
E
I am not sure if I follow your thought process.
If Singapore is small (which it is), then Singapore due to its size and relatively peaceful external environment should be less well armed and considerably so, than the Republic of Turkey, which faces unstable/occupied/ruined Iraq and Syria to its South, a brotherly country in Azerbaijan having parts of its territories occupied by a treacherous neighbour, tensions over the Eastern Mediterranean and Libya, as well as difficult ties with the kings/dictators in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and particularly, the UAE.
The relations with the Zionist regime have not been very friendly in the last decade or so either.
On top of that, there was an American backed coup attempt in 2016 against former PM/President Erdogan.
Bearing all these tribulations and threats in mind, there is all the more reason for the Turkish Navy to deploy at least 80% of the VLS cells in operation in the RoK navy.
The Turkish Navy could use its surface combatants for air defence operations near and far away from Turkish territory.
Ships are not the only way, and in fact, not the most preferred method of launching tactical guided missiles including land attack cruise missiles.
They could be launched from bombers, fighter aircrafts, even drones as Turkish industry has been trying to develop with their latest Akinji drones.
There is no conceivable way in which the Turkish armed forces could detect, track and target a cruise missile from 1,000 km away. Cruise missiles are the preferred weapon of attack for the US Armed Forces, partially, because they are harder to detect due to their lower signature and their flight profile (flying at low heights, or what is often called "nap of the earth").
If Singapore is small (which it is), then Singapore due to its size and relatively peaceful external environment should be less well armed and considerably so, than the Republic of Turkey, which faces unstable/occupied/ruined Iraq and Syria to its South, a brotherly country in Azerbaijan having parts of its territories occupied by a treacherous neighbour, tensions over the Eastern Mediterranean and Libya, as well as difficult ties with the kings/dictators in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and particularly, the UAE.
The relations with the Zionist regime have not been very friendly in the last decade or so either.
On top of that, there was an American backed coup attempt in 2016 against former PM/President Erdogan.
Bearing all these tribulations and threats in mind, there is all the more reason for the Turkish Navy to deploy at least 80% of the VLS cells in operation in the RoK navy.
The Turkish Navy could use its surface combatants for air defence operations near and far away from Turkish territory.
Ships are not the only way, and in fact, not the most preferred method of launching tactical guided missiles including land attack cruise missiles.
They could be launched from bombers, fighter aircrafts, even drones as Turkish industry has been trying to develop with their latest Akinji drones.
There is no conceivable way in which the Turkish armed forces could detect, track and target a cruise missile from 1,000 km away. Cruise missiles are the preferred weapon of attack for the US Armed Forces, partially, because they are harder to detect due to their lower signature and their flight profile (flying at low heights, or what is often called "nap of the earth").
E
D
We can say that this is the main showcase of the Turkish Naval Forces Command's 2033 vision as platforms. There's been decades of effort and struggle in this illustration. Our navy has reached the opportunity to become a fully independent and force projection capable global actor after 2030. As long as the Turkish economy can support this vision, Turkish Navy's way is wide open. While Turkey geopolitics and its regional interests creating expansion pressure for navy, the increase in capability that comes with national solutions and technical competence will create a solid and secure basis for responding to this need. Even today, we continue to push this vision's limits with MILDEN , or even planning multi purpose heavy frigates(TF100). There are so many projects and new preparing on the platform basis that we cannot even talk enough about half-life modernizations and system & weapon localization works on existing platforms. So this poster can be elaborated much more with many other works and planning.
Btw, thanks to Miguyan2000 for this clear and illustrative work. This is one of the best twitter accounts if you want to follow Turkish defense and aerospace closely. I definitely recommend to foreign friends to follow.
- Messages
- 8,591
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
But those missiles would be of older type and easier countered so as such I’d say it’s not wrong to say the amount is low.
I think it’s worth remembering who our suppliers are and what kind of embargos and hidden embargos we’ve been under. I do not believe we’ve received a new surface combatant vessel ever since beginning of 2000’s.
Submarines the only.
I don’t even know if we got compensation for what they did to Muavenet.
I think it’s worth remembering who our suppliers are and what kind of embargos and hidden embargos we’ve been under. I do not believe we’ve received a new surface combatant vessel ever since beginning of 2000’s.
Submarines the only.
I don’t even know if we got compensation for what they did to Muavenet.
- Messages
- 4,785
- Reactions
- Nation of residence
-
- Nation of origin
-
