TR Artillery Systems & Projects

[Turko]

ATOM smart ammo family consists of
35mm ATOM air defense (optimized for air breathing targets)
35mm ATOM C-RAM (optimized for small caliber rockets, mortars, and artillery shells.)
35mm ATOM ZMA (IFV. Optimized for ground targets)
105mm ATOM (shell fuse for existing 105mm artillery shells. It is made mainly for Boran lightweight air-transportable howitzer)
155mm ATOM (shell fuse for existing 155mm artillery, it can be utilized by all existing 155mm SPH platforms)
120mm ATOM ( 120mm mortar shell fuse as part of mortar modernization effort)
81mm ATOM (81mm mortar shell fuse as part of mortar modernization effort)

All of them are produced in the same fuse production line. They are cheap, they can be produced in tens of thousands of units. They can be applied to existing shells that are currently in the stockpile and can be used with minimal modifications on platforms that can fire mentioned ammos.

Why do they need optimize the proggrammable ammunition for different targets? it is obvious from the name "Programmable ammunitions ". When you need to hit aircraft you program how much fragments Target needs. When you engage ground target , you just program the ammunition and it flies monolithic and won't burst. İ don't understand it.

 

[Anmdt]

ATOM smart ammo family consists of
35mm ATOM air defense (optimized for air breathing targets)
35mm ATOM C-RAM (optimized for small caliber rockets, mortars, and artillery shells.)
35mm ATOM ZMA (IFV. Optimized for ground targets)
105mm ATOM (shell fuse for existing 105mm artillery shells. It is made mainly for Boran lightweight air-transportable howitzer)
155mm ATOM (shell fuse for existing 155mm artillery, it can be utilized by all existing 155mm SPH platforms)
120mm ATOM ( 120mm mortar shell fuse as part of mortar modernization effort)
81mm ATOM (81mm mortar shell fuse as part of mortar modernization effort)

All of them are produced in the same fuse production line. They are cheap, they can be produced in tens of thousands of units. They can be applied to existing shells that are currently in the stockpile and can be used with minimal modifications on platforms that can fire mentioned ammos.

1st ATOM 35mm is typically for CIWS role, smart munition, programmable
2nd is HE warhead 35mm, a dumb munition, not programmable
3rd is AP warhead 35mm, a dumb munition, not programmable.

ATOM 35mm is also planned to be used on IFVs as anti personnel, behind the wall targets, or against surface targets on ships.

 

[Anmdt]

Why do they need optimize the proggrammable ammunition for different targets? it is obvious from the name "Programmable ammunitions ". When you need to hit aircraft you program how much fragments Target needs. When you engage ground target , you just program the ammunition and it flies monolithic and won't burst. İ don't understand it.

You only need programming when your warhead
Either need course correction (artillery-mortar shell)

Or needs a timing to explode: CIWS - cloud
Or to target something behind a wall/obstacle with its explosive shell (like CIWS)

Others are dumb munitions with specialized warheads, doesn't need to be programmed.

 

[TheInsider]

They optimized the tungsten grains. Grain size, grain distribution grain numbers etc. Grain characteristics are important to be effective against different target sets. Bigger tungsten grains with smaller dispersion do better when intercepting low caliber artillery rockets, mortars, and artillery shells on the other hand smaller grains with bigger dispersion area do better when intercepting air-breathing targets.

For a bigger dispersion smart fuse has to be activated further away from the target compared to a smaller dispersion. So there are many things to modify.

 

[Anmdt]

They optimized the tungsten grains. Grain size, grain distribution grain numbers etc. Grain characteristics are important to be effective against different target sets. Bigger tungsten grains with smaller dispersion do better when intercepting low caliber artillery rockets, mortars, and artillery shells on the other hand smaller grains with bigger dispersion area do better when intercepting air-breathing targets.

For a bigger dispersion smart fuse has to be activated further away from the target compared to a smaller dispersion. So there are many things to modify.

1st, it is not the tungsten which the grain or sub particle, it is the "shell", shell itself is tungsten thus it is able to pierce through hard shell of the artillery rounds.

2nd, it is not about being air breathing or not, AHEAD / ATOM rounds can damage anything with a soft shell, air breathing or not.
The difference is hard-shell / soft -shell.

3rd, it is thumb or rule for a C-RAM round to be a single round, so that it can be used in populated areas.

4th, the dispersion is not related to a tungsten part of the round. The dispersion you refer to, is not dispersion of the sub-particles in a smart munition but the dispersion of the shell itself. If you want to engage an artillery shell your, your CIWS round should have a direct hit to pierce through.

Lastly, you probably have read about phalanx C-RAM and assumed they use an ATOM-like round. In fact, phalanx uses dumb rounds with tungsten shells, it doesn't have a programmable timing. Has lower dispersion (the dispersion is a matter because of the gatling gun too) thanks to some improvementd in the shell as well.

Also C-RAM rounds are further self destructive, they explode for safety after a certain, fixed time, not for engagement.

 

[TheInsider]

ATOM 35mm Parçacıklı Mühimmat

ATOM 35 mm Parçacıklı Mühimmat ASELSAN tarafından geliştirilmiş kısa menzilli hava savunma sistemlerinde kullanılan dip tapalı akıllı mühimmattır.

www.defenceturk.net

Can you now see those small tungsten shrapnels! You are writing nonsense.

 

[TheInsider]

Whether you like it or not Atom 35mm has 3 variants. One is for air breathing targets with a lot of small tungsten shrapnel with a bigger dispersion area. One is for mortar and artillery shells and small caliber artillery rockets with bigger less amount of tungsten shrapnel with a low dispersion area(Turkish C-RAM). And one optimized for ground targets to be used on IFVs.

 

[Anmdt]

ATOM 35mm Parçacıklı Mühimmat

ATOM 35 mm Parçacıklı Mühimmat ASELSAN tarafından geliştirilmiş kısa menzilli hava savunma sistemlerinde kullanılan dip tapalı akıllı mühimmattır.

www.defenceturk.net

Can you now see those small tungsten shrapnels! You are writing nonsense.

Those particles are meant to create a cloud of metals, you set a time for explosion to set where that could would be created to stop a missile.

Low dispersion tungsten armor piercing round is what used by phalanx, the low dispersion refers to munition itself not the sub-particles.

How ATOM works:

C-RAM, AKA: low dispersion tungsten shells, they don't have sharapnels.

 

[Anmdt]

Whether you like it or not Atom 35mm has 3 variants. One is for air breathing targets with a lot of small tungsten shrapnel with a bigger dispersion area. One is for mortar and artillery shells and small caliber artillery rockets with bigger less amount of tungsten shrapnel with a low dispersion area(Turkish C-RAM). And one optimized for ground targets to be used on IFVs.

I wonder who made things up about the ATOM variants*, i can only get one source for that in a google search and i hope you are not the guy who has published that in a website i don't like to follow that much

You don't need to modify ATOM to use it on IFVs, with its programmable timing it can be directly used as-is.
ATOM with an armor piercing property,is not a smart one, thus not it is not ATOM but a dumb 35mm hard coated round.

*Aselsan made them up like 5-6 years ago, later removed from the website too. Had to wake up a friend to ask about this.

 

[TheInsider]

Dude im not talking about American C-RAM. Phalanx is 20mm there is no 20mm airburst ammo. Our way of doing things is different. We don't use full metal jacket rounds in Atom 35mm. Neither for air breathing targets nor for in a C-RAM like role. We do that by playing with the characteristics of tungsten shrapnel so that we can pierce hard shell and also keep the effectiveness of the advanced airburst ammunition over the full metal jacket rounds. Thousands of rounds fired against mortar round to find the sweet spot for it to work. Soft shells of air breathing targets

Akıllı mühimmat 'Atom' göreve başlıyor

ASELSAN'ın hava tehditlerine karşı namlulu silah sistemlerinin etkinlik düzeylerinin artırılması amacıyla geliştirdiği "Atom" göreve başlıyor. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Anmdt]

Dude im not talking about American C-RAM. Phalanx is 20mm there is no 20mm airburst ammo. Our way of doing things is different. We don't use full metal jacket rounds in Atom 35mm. Neither for air breathing targets nor for in a C-RAM like role. We do that by playing with the characteristics of tungsten shrapnel so that we can pierce hard shell and also keep the effectiveness of the advanced airburst ammunition over the full metal jacket rounds. Thousands of rounds fired against mortar round to find the sweet spot of for it to work.

Ok, let me ask you this way:
How do you plan to pierce through shell of an artillery round without an armor piercing round?
is a pellet, regardless of size, capable of "armor piercing of an artillery shell" after its released from the shell? If a round is that accurate, then doesn't it make more sense if the round itself is AP and hits to the artillery shell?

Those three different shells were listed in Aselsan's brochure of ATOM like 5 or 6 years ago, if you are curious i can tell you the background story.

ATOM's CRAM version is a non-fused, dumb armor piercing / high explosive round. it has a lower dispersion the the round itself, is more accurate, not related to the pellets/sharapnels,
That is the reason why Gökdeniz has dual linkless feed with switchable rounds, HEI (AP) / ATOM, one for hard-shell targets while other is for soft shells.
ATOM, like AHEAD is also a dual purpose round, it can either be fused or non-fused, in non-fused variant it performs well as HEI/AP round.

HEI/AP to engage hard shell targets.
ATOM to engage soft shell targets.

From AHEAD read the bold parts only:

The Skyshield MOOTW/C-RAM system depends on Ahead airburst technology. Each round of Ahead ammunition contains a lethal payload of heavy metal, spin-stabilized subprojectiles, unleashed in the path of an oncoming target at programmable, predefined point in time. A short burst of Ahead ammunition produces a dense cloud of lethal subprojectiles. These penetrate the outer skin of the target, causing catastrophic damage to its interior.

Ahead airburst technology can bring down targets at greater distances with fewer rounds fired, making it a much more cost-effective solution than conventional ammunition. The technology can be used in ammunition ranging in calibre from 30 mm to 76 mm. Rheinmetall is currently integrating payloads into Ahead rounds which are optimized for a variety of tactical roles in various calibres, with subprojectiles ranging in weight from 0.25 g to over 20 g. Ahead technology is suitable for ground, naval and air force applications.

As an added plus, Ahead rounds can also be fired in non-fused mode, in which they behave like very superior frangible rounds upon impact and are able to penetrate and destroy very hard targets. In effect, Ahead is actually two type of ammunition in one.

Also Mantis C-RAM uses 152 * 3.3 gr of pellet variant of AHEAD
ATOM uses 152 pieces of nearly~3gr of pellet
So technically, ATOM is capable of being a C-RAM round, if MANTIS's AHEAD is.

 

[TheInsider]

Yes it is. It is hard to do but yes. You can pierce hard shell of a round without a full metal jacket.
READ THIS. This is from the acceptance tests.

Karapınar'da ASELSAN ATOM kabulleri | SavunmaSanayiST

ASELSAN, hava savunma top sistemleri için geliştirmiş olduğu 35mm'lik Parçacıklı Mühimmat ATOM'un seri üretim ve teslimat faaliyetlerine başarıyla devam ediyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[Anmdt]

Yes it is. It is hard to do but yes. You can pierce hard shell of a round without a full metal jacket.
READ THIS. This is from the acceptance tests.

Karapınar'da ASELSAN ATOM kabulleri | SavunmaSanayiST

ASELSAN, hava savunma top sistemleri için geliştirmiş olduğu 35mm'lik Parçacıklı Mühimmat ATOM'un seri üretim ve teslimat faaliyetlerine başarıyla devam ediyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

ASELSAN has mentioned about those three variants 5-6 years ago, when ATOM project has started, later an optimum pellet size and count (inspired from AHEAD) was chosen.
Here you can see the original source which doesn't exist anymore

35mm AIR BURST AMMUNITION

You can pierce a hard-shell round if the munition is fired in a nonfused mode (without being programmed), however, imagine hitting an artillery shell above a city, and all those pellets from C-RAM are raining down on people.
This is the reason why single core bullet shells are preferred for C-RAM. It is the same as using an HEI round to hit artillery rounds.

Also, Navy was not convinced with this and they have particularly asked for HEI shells on Gökdeniz.

 

[TheInsider]

My info comes from the press meeting from the acceptance test. In the meeting officials clearly mentioned three versions. What is your source?

 

[Combat-Master]

Also, Navy was not convinced with this and they have particularly asked for HEI shells on Gökdeniz.

Doesn't the navy already use 25mm AB for the Sea Zenith ?

Why would they have issues with 35mm AB ?

 

[TheInsider]

Navy didn't ask for HEI shells for an air defense role he is wrong again. Navy asked Phalanx like CIWS(Full metal jacket) to complement the Gokdeniz system. Gokdeniz system has some flaws for very short-range very high angle of attack engagements. Even though it became lighter and more maneuverable Gokdeniz is still a clunky system. You have limits with 2 big 35mm cannons. The Navy asked HEI shells to engage sea surface targets mostly small boats. Incendiary rounds are very good against surface targets.

 

[Combat-Master]

Navy didn't ask for HEI shells for an air defense role he is wrong again. Navy asked Phalanx like CIWS(Full metal jacket) to complement the Gokdeniz system. Gokdeniz system has some flaws for very short-range very high angle of attack engagements. Even though it became lighter and more maneuverable Gokdeniz is still a clunky system. You have limits with 2 big 35mm cannons. The Navy asked HEI shells to engage sea surface targets mostly small boats. Incendiary rounds are very good against surface targets.

This makes sense, is Gokdeniz dual feed per cannon? As in, could both cannons switch from AB to HEI or would they have to be loaded as per mission requirements beforehand

 

[TheInsider]

Yes it is. You can select two different types of ammo without problems with the linkless ammo feeding system

@anmdt
You should listen more before making baseless claims.

BTW Directly from Aselsan and it is a new link that shows different versions of ATOM 35mm

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/ATOM_4822.pdf

You can reach PDF directly from the above link or you can click from the product page.

Güven Veren Teknoloji | ASELSAN

Güven Veren Teknoloji

www.aselsan.com.tr

 

[Anmdt]

Doesn't the navy already use 25mm AB for the Sea Zenith ?
View attachment 17871

Why would they have issues with 35mm AB ?

Sea zenith uses AP rounds (HEI, i don't really differ the terminology), That is why Navy asked for HEI (APDS) whichever first the armor piercing role.

https://weaponsystems.net/system/619-25mm+Sea+Zenith

Navy didn't ask for HEI shells for an air defense role he is wrong again. Navy asked Phalanx like CIWS(Full metal jacket) to complement the Gokdeniz system. Gokdeniz system has some flaws for very short-range very high angle of attack engagements. Even though it became lighter and more maneuverable Gokdeniz is still a clunky system. You have limits with 2 big 35mm cannons. The Navy asked HEI shells to engage sea surface targets mostly small boats. Incendiary rounds are very good against surface targets.

Navy did ask for HEI shells for aerial targets, for god's sake stop pretending like an insider making claims as if you have seen it by your eyes. HEI was asked particularly for hard-shell aerial targets as a secondary option, there is a main cannon with 76mm for surface targets, and 2 x 25mm STOP on platforms Gökdeniz is going to be installed.
Also, both airbust ammunition and HEI rounds can be used against surface targets, Gökdeniz is complementing main cannon because, probably we don't have a 76mm air burst ammunition as of now.

. Navy asked Phalanx like CIWS(Full metal jacket) to complement the Gokdeniz system. Gokdeniz system has some flaws for very short-range very high angle of attack engagements

Be honest and tell, i have said a few messages ago:
ATOM doesn't have a C-RAM variant as you have claimed (as effective as 20-25 mm single core rounds),ATOM itself is already capably of C-RAM partially, but not as effective as phalanx based C-RAM and navy particularly asked for gatling based CIWS for a true C-RAM (against hard shell targets) by foreseeing the growing application of smart munitions like Vulcano.
It is an interim solution, the ultimate solution, which is aimed, will be smart-guided munitions like DARDO and probably will be based on 76 mm.

You have disproved yourself, nice. Gökdeniz doesn't have flaws you have mentioned, i suggest you to stop making "claims" as if it is real, if it is your opinion then tell it is your opinion, opinions are respected. Gökdeniz can engage high elevations and it is slightly bulkier (yes because of 2x 35mm compared to Millennium gun with 1x40mm), it have flaws from the ATOM round (if used in fused mode) and rate of fire (1100 vs 4500), it is not effective against hard shell targets,as much as phalanx is (which i have told a few messages ago why ATOM C-RAM wouldn't work,and doesn't exists anymore), and less responsive than Phalanx* (But wait if you were an insider as you have pretended, you would also know about the newer iteration of Gökdeniz)

*Why it is less responsive? Phalanx has vertical architecture, feed from bottom, control radar on top, has quite little inertia compared to Gökdeniz, which feeds from sides and has a horizontal architecture.

Phalanx has one major flaw too: Range, its effective range is less than half of gökdeniz ,it disperse much more rounds per-target (however the latest upgrade has electonic control for this to control amount of rounds per target, per engagement)

Gökdeniz's flaw is not entirely about the platform itself but ATOM round, if there was a C-RAM variant as you have claimed (as much as effective single-core bullets of Phalanx CIWS), then there wouldn't be a need for Gatling gun based CIWS compromising effective range which matters the most in case of hypersonic threats.

You should listen more before making baseless claims.

You are making baseless claims, not me. I am telling that brochure isn't even coming first in search anymore, first shown 5-6 years ago(or even more) when ATOM round development has first started.

 

[Combat-Master]

Sea zenith uses AP rounds (HEI, i don't really differ the terminology), That is why Navy asked for HEI (APDS) whichever first the armor piercing role.

https://weaponsystems.net/system/619-25mm+Sea+Zenith

Navy did ask for HEI shells for aerial, for god's sake stop pretending like an insider making claims as if you have seen it by your eyes. HEI was asked particularly for hard-shell aerial targets as a secondary option, there is a main cannon with 76mm for surface targets, and 2 x 25mm STOP on platforms Gökdeniz is going to be installed.


Be honest and tell, i have said a few messages ago:
ATOM doesn't have a C-RAM variant as you have claimed, not as effective as phalanx based C-RAM, ATOM as itself,is also capable of C-RAM but NAVY and LAND FORCES, particularly asked for gatling based CIWS for a true C-RAM (against hard shell targets).

You have disproved yourself, nice. Gökdeniz doesn't have flaws you have mentioned, i suggest you to stop making "claims" as if it is real, if it is your opinion then tell it is your opinion. Gökdeniz can engage high elevations and it is slightly bulkier (yes because of 2x 35mm compared to Millennium gun with 1x40mm), it have flaws from the ATOM round and rate of fire, it is not effective against hard shell targets,as much as phalanx is, and less responsive (But wait if you were an insider as you have pretended, you would also know about the newer iteration of Gökdeniz)
Gökdeniz's flaw is not entirely about the platform itself but ATOM round, if there was a C-RAM variant as you have claimed (as much as effective single-core bullets), then there wouldn't be a need for Gatling gun based CIWS.

You are making baseless claims, not me.

Definitely we must not forget the Gatling type CIWS/CRAM that's being developed with MKE heading the development of the 20mm Gatling.