Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

[R4duga]

Ah... angin surga again

a blessing one , it's very rare occasion for japs to give a serious attention trying to help indonesia in defense matter , especially this time they also bring the "Transfer Of Technology" cake with it , unfortunately one of the consideration with the japs ship are it's weapon and sub-system (unless the next stage of persuasion they're going to bring another "Cake" for PT.LEN in term of CMS / Subsystems development).

 

[Anmdt]

Did Turkey really on tender list? Milgem class or T-2000? or is it just some wrong information that the journalists wrote, maybe the correct one should be UK-Denmark with their Type 31 Babcock - Iver Huitveld

I don't know if there is an official submission, since there isn't one official tender or RfP going on, and cooperation was discussed during Probowo's visit to Turkey. I-Class /Ada-Class and possible derivations , design flexibility were presented to him.

Ada-Class was offered to Indonesia since the beginning, along with customization, IP rights and ToT it hasn't caught much attraction for the known reasons.

TF-2000 is a $1B platform and i don't think it will be offered for export anytime soon, design stage has not been concluded yet.

 

[Gary]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1392686908141019138

 

[Anmdt]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1392686908141019138

So just because he can not track the vessels without the online /satellite AIS, he claims the transponders was turned off ? Has there been any statements from Indonesia regarding to this? It is then better to avoid speculations. As an expert of specialiast he should also been able to verify this through local sources, from commercial ships with an AIS operating on those waters, if did so, he would happen to realize the AIS was possibly on.
Meanwhile the AIS transponder was on and in broadcast. The ship was picked up online as soon as got into the range of AIS station in Banyuwangi, He again can look at land-AIS stations located in SEA which is quite scarce.

"No expertise in deep sea salvage", well they are sufficiently experienced in "deep-sea" operations which they have been gaining experience since 2000. These ships will not be lifting the entire wreck but focus on critical equipments for first (lifting capacity of ROV, AUV and manned submarine can give a hint on this), so that the rest can be lifted in a brute way. Unlike Kursk example he has given, Chinese ,in my opinion, is not focusing to lift the whole of 402.
Not being in favor of a country is something, but a "specialist" should be "neutral", in my honest opinion.

 

[Gary]

So just because he can not track the vessels without the online /satellite AIS, he claims the transponders was turned off ? Has there been any statements from Indonesia regarding to this? It is then better to avoid speculations. As an expert of specialiast he should also been able to verify this through local sources, from commercial ships with an AIS operating on those waters, if did so, he would happen to realize the AIS was possibly on.
Meanwhile the AIS transponder was on and in broadcast. The ship was picked up online as soon as got into the range of AIS station in Banyuwangi, He again can look at land-AIS stations located in SEA which is quite scarce.

"No expertise in deep sea salvage", well they are sufficiently experienced in "deep-sea" operations which they have been gaining experience since 2000. These ships will not be lifting the entire wreck but focus on critical equipments for first (lifting capacity of ROV, AUV and manned submarine can give a hint on this), so that the rest can be lifted in a brute way. Unlike Kursk example he has given, Chinese ,in my opinion, is not focusing to lift the whole of 402.
Not being in favor of a country is something, but a "specialist" should be "neutral", in my honest opinion.

Being honest or not, but everything China (esp regarding their military) are always seen with suspicion here.

The west (and it's media) are (likely) riding on those suspicion as well.
Np: I know AsiaTimes is not western, but you got my point.

 

[Anmdt]

Being honest or not, but everything China (esp regarding their military) are always seen with suspicion here.

The west (and it's media) are (likely) riding on those suspicion as well.
Np: I know AsiaTimes is not western, but you got my point.

My point is, the response should be given at proper incidents (intrusions at EEZ, disobedience and territorial waters risking safety and threatening sovereignty), not in some incidents which actually doesn't have anything to be objected such as this salvage operation.

 

[this is crunch]

My point is, the response should be given at proper incidents (intrusions at EEZ, disobedience and territorial waters risking safety and threatening sovereignty), not in some incidents which actually doesn't have anything to be objected such as this salvage operation.

But sir, we are still don't know whether the AIS transponder was really turned off, there are no proof about it, it could be the journalists is only seeking its AIS via web-AIS tracker, it is open for public but thats not accurate enough, not all of ships AIS is detected, especially military and special ship,

For instance, when the time the searching for 402 at few past week ago, the web AIS tracker is not showing that there are more than 15 military ships on sea in that area, they only detected it few amount of it,
and another example is, the MV Swift Rescue last detected by web AIS Tracker is just before entering Indonesian waters, for the next 2-3 days its out of sight until she arrived at the area, but we know and we sure that the ships AIS is always on,

Ofcourse the anything public is not that sophisticated compared to military ones,

And if indeed they were turning off the AIS in Indonesian waters, while they are carying Aid Mission to Indonesia, why would they dare to do that? thats doesn't make sense

 

[JATOSINT]

Let us say the magic word:

"Kapan ya?"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393228940060205057

 

[Lordimperator]

Let us say the magic word:

"Kapan ya?"

Soon, at 20xx

 

[BBOn]

Regarding to AIS, When you do not see updated positions and get the message out of range, that means the vessel is far away from terrestrial stations and can only be tracked via satellite (in this case if you use AIS tracking system via web).

But there is another way to know if a ship turn on her AIS or not.
Lets say, China vessel sail approaching Indonesia territory. Even if the nearest terrestrial station cannot pickup the signal because its too far away ( I doubt that. Because AIS can use low orbit satellite to send the data. As long you turn your AIS you can be detected by another ship and onshore station) but the nearby ships, lets say Indonesia warship who's doing her routine patrol and have her onboard AIS, can ensure that china ship is turn on her AIS or not.
This is often happens in every encounter with Chinese military or research ships. This reason raises the suspicion that they probably have implicit intentions.

 

[Gary]

Let us say the magic word:

"Kapan ya?"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393228940060205057

For that money spent on an LHA ($ +3B) , we'd rather spent on more capital ships, or even stockpile missiles and other area denial weapons.

I'm against this kind of luxury when it's clear that we're unable to deal with the security threat of the region.

We need to slim down personel, cut cost elsewhere on non important stuff like HADR capabilities, we need to have a clear threat assessment as wel as an overhaul of doctrine. Our three service should be directed for ship killing.

np: yes I call HADR non important stuff, especially when we have a bloated, mostly outdated military with a tiny budget.

 

[Anmdt]

Regarding to AIS, When you do not see updated positions and get the message out of range, that means the vessel is far away from terrestrial stations and can only be tracked via satellite (in this case if you use AIS tracking system via web)

But there is another way to know if a ship turn on her AIS or not.
Lets say, China vessel sail approaching Indonesia territory. Even if the nearest terrestrial station cannot pickup the signal because its too far away but the nearby ships, lets say Indonesia warship who's doing her routine patrol, can ensure that china ship is turn on her AIS or not.
This is often happens in every encounter with Chinese military or research ships. This reason raises the suspicion that they probably have implicit intentions.

AIS has a range (depending on transmitter and receiver), it also has a ping interval set automaticall or by operator. So even at sea you may have a visual contact with a ship but you may not receive an AIS package for a while. Or you may have a visual/radar contact from a Warship but you may be out of the AIS range.
The best way is to make radio contact in case of suspicion, request voyage information; it is whole bunch of procedures.
The case here is highly irrelevant, typically in such case if those ships are invited they would be given clearance and priority in passages, such as wouldn't queue up in straits or ports. Possibly they would be greeted by a vessel upon the entry in territorial waters, given a suggested route ,not enforced, for a comfortable voyage.

For that money spent on an LHA ($ +3B) , we'd rather spent on more capital ships, or even stockpile missiles and other area denial weapons.

I'm against this kind of luxury when it's clear that we're unable to deal with the security threat of the region.

We need to slim down personel, cut cost elsewhere on non important stuff like HADR capabilities, we need to have a clear threat assessment as wel as an overhaul of doctrine. Our three service should be directed for ship killing.

np: yes I call HADR non important stuff, especially when we have a bloated, mostly outdated military with a tiny budget.

Would make most sense to use local sources and have 1/2 large LPDs, wouldn't cost much, would serve the same purpose with limited operationability of helicopters from other forces (land/air).
Later as budget becomes availabe those can be equipped with state-of-art electronics and weapon systems, and dedicated navalized air lifts.

And an expensive LHA is quite a luxury.

 

[FPXAllen]

I'm against this kind of luxury when it's clear that we're unable to deal with the security threat of the region.

Pardon my ignorance, but are there any rumors that our navy want to buy this kind of ship that I don't know of? Because, as far as I can recall, I haven't heard anything about it at all. With that said, if there's a rumor about buying one, I do agree with your points. We don't need to spend billions of dollars just to buy a ship that will likely becomes a huge financial burden to operate and maintain.

This makes me wonder though: If TNI-AL really needs a dedicated helicopter carrier, why can't they just look at what PT PAL can offer? Granted, PT PAL's concept is not as luxurious compared to American's LHA, but it is still within our capability to build and to expand it in the future - not to mention that with that amount of money we probably can build several of this:

Source.

Would make most sense to use local sources and have 1/2 large LPDs

We already have several LPDs though. 1 dedicated hospital ship, 1 LPD converted to hospital ship and 4 'pure' LPDs.

 

[Nilgiri]

It depends on Indonesia being real toward what are the likeliest threats.

Do LPD and/or LHA fill that role compared to say destroyers, frigates, corvettes, subs....and more specifically the sensors and weapons these bring in concentrated area for both concentrated and dispersed threat from whichever "most-likely" adversary that can approach and deploy these in the area.

i.e What is the nature of the need to be able to dominate a landing area, and/or transport war material and troops across the island chain....compared to detecting, intercepting things in the open, contested, littoral zones of the conflicts you war game and plan for.

This is what is the basic analysis that should determine each and every acquisition, it must be structured to the scope planned for 10, 20 and even 30 years down road given the inertias and funds involved....and lifetimes of such assets.

 

[JATOSINT]

For that money spent on an LHA ($ +3B) , we'd rather spent on more capital ships, or even stockpile missiles and other area denial weapons.

I'm against this kind of luxury when it's clear that we're unable to deal with the security threat of the region.

We need to slim down personel, cut cost elsewhere on non important stuff like HADR capabilities, we need to have a clear threat assessment as wel as an overhaul of doctrine. Our three service should be directed for ship killing.

np: yes I call HADR non important stuff, especially when we have a bloated, mostly outdated military with a tiny budget.

OC we should buy 'enough' FFG/DDF first before procuring LHD/LHA

I must disagree with cutting HADR capabilities tho as we are a disaster-prone country and probably the best way to show to some people that a military institution is still useful even during peacetime

And I don't think HADR's capabilities were so different from capabilities needed for combat (rapid deployment, airlift, sealift, field hospital, engineer, how to manage stressed/exhausted/angry/desperate local population, etc)

 

[Gary]

Pardon my ignorance, but are there any rumors that our navy want to buy this kind of ship that I don't know of? Because, as far as I can recall, I haven't heard anything about it at all. With that said, if there's a rumor about buying one, I do agree with your points. We don't need to spend billions of dollars just to buy a ship that will likely becomes a huge financial burden to operate and maintain.

This makes me wonder though: If TNI-AL really needs a dedicated helicopter carrier, why can't they just look at what PT PAL can offer? Granted, PT PAL's concept is not as luxurious compared to American's LHA, but it is still within our capability to build and to expand it in the future - not to mention that with that amount of money we probably can build several of this:

Source.


We already have several LPDs though. 1 dedicated hospital ship, 1 LPD converted to hospital ship and 4 'pure' LPDs.

1. when this concept floated around, the Asia-Pacific region is not that tense (like today).
2. that time, we pretty much gave up security and order to the US as a guarantor of peace in the Pacific. Hence we could focus on other things and capabilities (such as HADR)
3. Now that China has risen up to challenge that order, the possibility of a kinetic conflict between the two giants could well be dragging most of ASEAN country.
4. in short we are not ready at all.
5. We need to stop doing things the traditional way, the only way I see Indonesia floats is if we could guarantee control of our own near seas, by having control on our seas meaning we could transport troops and materials from Java to other islands and .or prevent enemy from a potential beach landing.
6. when you are an underdog, you don't try to compete with the enemy on a ship by ship, jet by jet, tanks by tanks basis. we need area denial weapons. you just don't do that.
7. to have sea control/denial, we need missiles, as of today the only platform we could entrust to do ship killing mission is from the navy surface combatants.
8. we couldn't spent so much money buying capital ships, we need to get creative on deterrence, this is no longer a navy only issue, both the army and AF should be geared towards joint ship killing mission.
9. and because we're broke, I'm very much against the military pursuing other novel capabilities until we have secured the ability to do effective ship killing from multiple platforms and different arms service. we really don't need to have brand new chopper, LHA or whatever stuff .

 

[Madokafc]

Let us say the magic word:

"Kapan ya?"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393228940060205057

Not in this decade, they want to get as much as Frigates, Corvettes (OPV) and Submarine along with supporting units like Submarine tender/rescue vessel, ocean going tug boat, more LST, more LPD, Fast Missiles Boats (a true ones in sense), large ocean going Oiler/RAS ship, ASW helicopters, ASW Aircraft, if possible.

To acquire something like LHD you need Capital warships squadron as Escort vessels, utility Frigates as Escort for Capital warships, ASW Corvettes/OPV as screening forces, Organic ASuW/ASW helicopters for each major combatant, dedicated Naval helicopters squadron to be attached to the LHD units all with possible rotation units, then you need dedicated large pier for maintenance and logistic support ecosystem thus this kind of expenditure is not possible for this decade at least...

 

[trishna_amrta]

Pardon my ignorance, but are there any rumors that our navy want to buy this kind of ship that I don't know of? Because, as far as I can recall, I haven't heard anything about it at all. With that said, if there's a rumor about buying one,

Just a wacana kosong

This makes me wonder though: If TNI-AL really needs a dedicated helicopter carrier, why can't they just look at what PT PAL can offer? Granted, PT PAL's concept is not as luxurious compared to American's LHA, but it is still within our capability to build and to expand it in the future - not to mention that with that Aramount of money we probably can build several of this:

Source.


We already have several LPDs though. 1 dedicated hospital ship, 1 LPD converted to hospital ship and 4 'pure' LPDs.

Are you that naive enough to actually believe that PT PAL have a decent design offering for LHA

 

[Mandala]

Pardon my ignorance, but are there any rumors that our navy want to buy this kind of ship that I don't know of? Because, as far as I can recall, I haven't heard anything about it at all. With that said, if there's a rumor about buying one, I do agree with your points. We don't need to spend billions of dollars just to buy a ship that will likely becomes a huge financial burden to operate and maintain.

This makes me wonder though: If TNI-AL really needs a dedicated helicopter carrier, why can't they just look at what PT PAL can offer? Granted, PT PAL's concept is not as luxurious compared to American's LHA, but it is still within our capability to build and to expand it in the future - not to mention that with that amount of money we probably can build several of this:

Source.


We already have several LPDs though. 1 dedicated hospital ship, 1 LPD converted to hospital ship and 4 'pure' LPDs.

This is a screenshot from PT PAL Instagram of their booth during Rapim Kemhan 2020. Look at the banner poster on the left. The bottom pic is a CGI of a LHD. Unfortunately i wasn't able to come to the exhibition if i could i would take a pic of that banner.

The top pic i'm guessing is a CGI of PT PAL 90 meter OPV and the middle is the LPD.

CGI of PT PAL 90 meter OPV.

 

[BBOn]

So even at sea you may have a visual contact with a ship but you may not receive an AIS package for a while. Or you may have a visual/radar contact from a Warship but you may be out of the AIS range.

AIS have ability to broadcast data using low orbit satellites frequently every 1-5 seconds. From there any other vessel who have their shipboard AIS near her can track the dynamic data include speed,course,longitude,altitude and navigation status.

AIS principal is not different with shipboard GPS. Both using satellite for transmitting the data.
In GPS, you using satellite position to tringulated your position. Then you can get your position.
In AIS, you broadcast this data to other ships by the satellite so the other vessel know your dynamic data.
So even, if you far away from shore. Since its using Satellite, you still able to broadcast your data and other vessel near you will receive this broadcast as well.

AIS fuction is all about to inform other vessel about your present so that each ship can navigate safely and the navigator can be better informed about the situation around him. If it restricted by the distance, I believe no shipowners will think it wise to install the AIS on their ships. Its not cheap.