TR HÜRJET-Advanced Jet Trainer/ Light attack aircraft

[Lupus]

Americans have been embargoed us for almost 4 years. How can we trust them to get the engines for serial pruduction. I m scared that HURJET would share the same faith of ALTAY. To hurt us more they will wait us to spend our money for the development program and then they will say sorry we cant give you the engine(hopefully not)

 

[Yasar_TR]

I hope so!

edit: It doesn't seem so

*(a) Turbofan and Turbojet engines (including those that are technology demonstrators, developmental engines, or variable cycle engines) capable of 15,000 lbf (66.7 kN) of thrust or greater that have any of the following:

(1) With or specially designed for thrust augmentation (afterburner);

(2) Thrust or exhaust nozzle vectoring;

(3) Parts or components controlled in paragraph (f)(6) of this category;

(4) Specially designed for sustained 30 second inverted flight or negative g maneuver; or

(5) Specially designed for high power extraction (greater than 50 percent of engine thrust at altitude) at altitudes greater than 50,000 feet.

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations (eCFR)

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations (eCFR) published by the Government Publishing Office

www.ecfr.gov

If I understand it correctly, CFR is not ITAR.
CFR is : Code Of Federal Regulation
ITAR is : International Traffic in Arms Regulation
Two distinctly separate systems of regulation.
Export of jet engines’ regulation under ITAR is a separate issue.
Apparently even China had found a loophole to get f404 engines because it was ITAR free. But was stopped from having it at the last moment. So they went for twin Motor Sich engined trainers.

 

[Philips]

If I understand it correctly, CFR is not ITAR.
CFR is : Code Of Federal Regulation
ITAR is : International Traffic in Arms Regulation
Two distinctly separate systems of regulation.
Export of jet engines’ regulation under ITAR is a separate issue.
Apparently even China had found a loophole to get f404 engines because it was ITAR free. But was stopped from having it at the last moment. So they went for twin Motor Sich engined trainers.

I know it's confusing but:

The Department of State is responsible for the export and temporary import of defense articles and services governed by 22 U.S.C. 2778 of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) and Executive Order 13637. The International Traffic in Arms Regulations ("ITAR," 22 CFR 120-130) implements the AECA. The ITAR is available from the Government Printing Office (GPO) as an annual hardcopy or e-document publication as part of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) and as an updated e-document.

Article - DDTC Public Portal

www.pmddtc.state.gov

 

[Yasar_TR]

I know it's confusing but:

The Department of State is responsible for the export and temporary import of defense articles and services governed by 22 U.S.C. 2778 of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) and Executive Order 13637. The International Traffic in Arms Regulations ("ITAR," 22 CFR 120-130) implements the AECA. The ITAR is available from the Government Printing Office (GPO) as an annual hardcopy or e-document publication as part of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) and as an updated e-document.

Article - DDTC Public Portal

www.pmddtc.state.gov

Here is a statement from an article about Hurjet and f404:
Moreover, selecting the EJ200 over the F404 could possibly position the Hürjet as a non-ITAR (i.e., free of subsystem with US export controls) option. In fact, an EJ200-equipped Hürjet would be the sole ITAR-free trainer aircraft option of the direct class of the T-50 and T-7A.
If this was the case why did we choose f404? Knowing that it could be subject to ITAR restrictions.
It doesn’t make sense. But the answer is there somewhere! Presumably by signing a letter of intent with Eurojet they got GE to have free F404 deliveries confirmed.

Hürjet: A Look at Turkey’s Next Generation Trainer Aircraft

With a target flight date of 2022 (or 2023), the Hürjet will serve as a lead-in-fighter-trainer (LIFT) and light combat aircraft (LCA).

quwa.org

 

[Philips]

Presumably by signing a letter of intent with Eurojet they got GE to have free F404 deliveries confirmed.

Hürjet: A Look at Turkey’s Next Generation Trainer Aircraft

With a target flight date of 2022 (or 2023), the Hürjet will serve as a lead-in-fighter-trainer (LIFT) and light combat aircraft (LCA).

quwa.org

Yeah, but the final approval of export is not made by a company but by the relevant US government authority. The US is still supplying CTS-800 engines for Turkish ATAK's but that doesn't mean Turkey can re-export it to others freely.

The same applies to the F404. There is a high chance that the F404 gets exported to Turkey for Turkish use, or eventually licence produced, but any re-export needs US government approval like in the case of ATAK.

Why did Turkey choose the F404 over EJ200? Perhaps because TEI is for 49% owned by GE and they have a great relationship. And the Hurjet is primarily designed as a trainer, so a 20000lb thrust engine is quite overkill. It will be otherwise more powerful than Gripen, Tejas and JF-17.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Yeah, but the final approval of export is not made by a company but by the relevant US government authority. The US is still supplying CTS-800 engines for Turkish ATAK's but that doesn't mean Turkey can re-export it to others freely.

The same applies to the F404. There is a high chance that the F404 gets exported to Turkey for Turkish use, or eventually licence produced, but any re-export needs US government approval like in the case of ATAK.

Why did Turkey choose the F404 over EJ200? Perhaps because TEI is for 49% owned by GE and they have a great relationship. And the Hurjet is primarily designed as a trainer, so a 20000lb thrust engine is quite overkill. It will be otherwise more powerful than Gripen, Tejas and JF-17.

İ think on top of those reasons you have mentioned, EJ200 has always been used in twin engine format. It has not been supplied in a single use format. Hal Tejas too, went for the f414 rather than ej200, in spite of the fact that RR were offering it with TVC, that improved life of engine and thrust to 23100lbf. Also Germany being a major contributor to the engine may have had reservations supplying it to Turkey (Mind you if RR decided to supply the ej200, by co producing it in Turkey, they would have little say in it).

 

[Philips]

İ think on top of those reasons you have mentioned, EJ200 has always been used in twin engine format. It has not been supplied in a single use format. Hal Tejas too, went for the f414 rather than ej200, in spite of the fact that RR were offering it with TVC, that improved life of engine and thrust to 23100lbf. Also Germany being a major contributor to the engine may have had reservations supplying it to Turkey (Mind you if RR decided to supply the ej200, by co producing it in Turkey, they would have little say in it).

TBH, unless we have images of an F404 at TUSAS I won't hold my breath. And if it does, then I expect a licence production of the engine at TEI. I believe Turkey has a requirement for more than 100 of these engines so it will be worthwhile. Or if we can really dream, that TEI is developing a medium thrust engine for the Hurjet parallel to the F404.

 

[Zafer]

If Turkey can make one engine for both Hürjet and TFX each then single and twin engine and possible four engine planes can make a wide selection.

 

[nakaFH]

We don't knows design details. Maybe planned indigenous engine draft dimensions close to the f404 engine dimensions.
Because, hürjet is Tai's own free project. And importance of project;
1. First supersonic plane design experience
2. Will learn supersonic plane airworthiness availibility experience
3. Before TFX suitable platform for some sub systems...

 

[Nilgiri]

Apparently even China had found a loophole to get f404 engines because it was ITAR free. But was stopped from having it at the last moment. So they went for twin Motor Sich engined trainers.

You have a source for this that F404 was ITAR free?

AFAIK, PRC tried to acquire it (in time period in question: i.e late 80s - early 90s), but was rejected given its covered by ITAR and tianenmen square sanctions policy quickly nullified much of the late cold war/early 90s bonhomie in this area.

Because of that they went with the LM2500 route (a commercial/marine gas turbine with similar hot section they were interested in), but the results from that have been speculative given the extra challenges of reverse engineering in this way.

 

[Lool]

@Yasar @Oublious

If you think that a decent country would go into JV with Turkey after all these surfaced corruption and fraud scandals that the Turkish government had part in, than i would say that you are daydreaming. There is no guarantee for them to Turkey not sell these technology to third parties.

Again, wrong thought process
If that is the case, then why would companies like MBDA sign co-operation amd tecnology transfer protocols with Halcon missile, UAE?
Like turkey has corrruption but UAE doesnt? My friend, it is all about geopolitics and competition

Ever since turkey went against the west ambitions to encircle turkey completely by protecting turkish cypriots, turkey was exposed to several embargos. Pls dont tell me that all the achievemnts of today si due to the meager tech transfer of the west over the past 60 years; that is ridiculous

Turkey, with the current gov, has accelerated defense tech backbone; thus, any further co-operation will just make turkey even more prominent (baykar drones are just an example). When the west had opposing ambitions to turkey in azerbaijan, they cancelled the exports of drone engines and camera but to their surprise turkey already had an indigineous spare. The west has an anti turkey stance in general, any critical tech transfer, may undermine the west ambitions
If they went against armenia, against france in libya, then all what is left is to obtain their former territories back sooner or later....... you think the west will allow that?


Now for competition, military sales arent only for money but for influence! When a competitor provied high class goods for cheaper prices, countries like USA and France will lose their markets and potentially their influnce on such markets. As an example, france exerts political pressure on egypt through weapons sales

 

[Yasar_TR]

You have a source for this that F404 was ITAR free?

AFAIK, PRC tried to acquire it (in time period in question: i.e late 80s - early 90s), but was rejected given its covered by ITAR and tianenmen square sanctions policy quickly nullified much of the late cold war/early 90s bonhomie in this area.

Because of that they went with the LM2500 route (a commercial/marine gas turbine with similar hot section they were interested in), but the results from that have been speculative given the extra challenges of reverse engineering in this way.

Actually I can’t find where I read it. But after checking what @Philips has provided, it seems quite likely that f404 too is subject to ITAR restrictions. Turkey probably, having signed a memorandum of intent with Eurojet, used it as leverage with GE for f404 and got the engines for Hurjet. USA is still supplying Tusas with lhtecT800 engines, albeit with export restrictions. F404 will most probably be supplied in the same manner.

 

[Philip the Arab]

If that is the case, then why would companies like MBDA sign co-operation amd tecnology transfer protocols with Halcon missile, UAE?
Like turkey has corrruption but UAE doesnt? My friend, it is all about geopolitics and competition

MBDA likes money above all else but correction Halcon is not apart of the SmartGlider program.

UAE is basically trying to gain some experience to push the engineers into the missile industry while paying for a system that will be useful for their air force and MBDA sees an opportunity to export to users of the Rafale and possibly their own air force.

UAE companies will never compete with MBDA, but Turkey eventually will in my opinion which is why they don't want to help you.

 

[comolokko]

Bro, are you were what our country's name involved in the lately? Money laundering, penetrating sanctions, drug trafficking, employing child soldiers, on top of it justice system is not functional in Turkey.

This is just my thinking, feel free to think otherwise.

the allegations you mention are seen even in the most transparent countries.

 

[Isa Khan]

Hürjet

So Hurjet will be armed with BVR, SRAAM, PGM, laser guided missile and SOM-J? Anything else? I assume Aselpod will be integrated.

Bro, Hürjet with 13m total length will be just 1m shorter than JAS-39A Gripen and will have an engine that will be almost the same thrust level with Gripen's Volvo RM-12 turbofan having a power ratio around 18000lbf with afterburner. The CAS variant of Hürjet will be a brutal aircraft with its features. Hürjet will have a nose radar but I am not sure If It will be an AESA or not.

So is it still unclear which engine and radar it will have? If it can fire BVR and SOM-J then will it be fitted with a radar with at least 150km range? Will naval hurjet be more powerful than the original version?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

So Hurjet will be armed with BVR, SRAAM, PGM, laser guided missile and SOM-J? Anything else? I assume Aselpod will be integrated.



So is it still unclear which engine and radar it will have? If it can fire BVR and SOM-J then will it be fitted with a radar with at least 150km range? Will naval hurjet be more powerful than the original version?

Army asked and TUSAŞ worked on feasibility of AC take off/landing variant of Hurjet and It is found feasible to develop this variant. According to latest informations, Hürjet will have ~14m length and modified fuselage for naval operations (strenghtened landing gears, larger wing area(?)). This aircraft is evolving to a true fighter aircraft and so AESA radar, BVR, WVR, SOM variant cruise missiles is a must. AESA will most likely be the scaled variant of F16 AESA radar that is being developed by Aselsan. The latest engine thrust figure is 19200lb and we don't know yet which engine will be integrated to Hürjet in serial production.

 

[Isa Khan]

@Micheal Corleone @Destranator remember we once talked about getting a mix fleet of EFT and KAI T-50 (trainer and light fighter both version) to deal with the cost but trying to full-fill the 100 jet requirement? I think Hurjet could be the alternative of T-50. If BAF is interested in TFX then this could be a good option. If BN buys a LHD instead of LPD then we can select a customized AC to fly 10/12 hurjet.

 

[Micheal Corleone]

@Micheal Corleone @Destranator remember we once talked about getting a mix fleet of EFT and KAI T-50 (trainer and light fighter both version) to deal with the cost but trying to full-fill the 100 jet requirement? I think Hurjet could be the alternative of T-50. If BAF is interested in TFX then this could be a good option. If BN buys a LHD instead of LPD then we can select a customized AC to fly 10/12 hurjet.

TFX would be similar class to EFT isn’t it? Doesn’t it make more sense to get TfX and Hurjet instead ?

 

[Isa Khan]

Doesn’t it make more sense to get TfX and Hurjet instead ?

Gotta wait and see how they perform though. Turkey will probably start manufacturing Hurjet in 2025-26 and deliver 10 TF-X in 2030-2033. You really want to wait that long? We can worry about 5th gen later.

TAI TF Kaan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Turkey’s TAI plans to start production of jet trainer at year-end

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) plans to start manufacturing the indigenous advanced jet trainer and light attack aircraft, Hürjet, at the end of this...

www.dailysabah.com

 

[Philips]

Good summary about the Hurjet project:

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